NATION

PASSWORD

[discussion] The State of Moderation

Who needs it, who got it, who hands it out and why.

Advertisement

Remove ads

User avatar
Relden
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 397
Founded: Oct 01, 2021
New York Times Democracy

Postby Relden » Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:45 am

Necroghastia wrote:ngl im one of those people of the opinion that relaxing the rona rules was a huge mistake

it's not like we're out of the woods and don't still have people trying to do everything they can to be plague rats

You tried reporting me on the grounds of "misinfo" for saying words to the effect of "if you go outside, it seems like there isn't a pandemic going on at all".

I feel like you want these ridiculous rules back so you can be empowered to report people who's views you don't like.
Last edited by Relden on Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
P A L E O C O N S E R V A T I V E
Ruthless | Exceptional | Likeable | Dependable | Efficient | Neighborly
Run-ins with the NSG police
How to go BEAST MODE
Previously Austreylia

User avatar
The Black Forrest
Post Czar
 
Posts: 47129
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:05 am

Relden wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:ngl im one of those people of the opinion that relaxing the rona rules was a huge mistake

it's not like we're out of the woods and don't still have people trying to do everything they can to be plague rats

You tried reporting me on the grounds of "misinfo" for saying words to the effect to "if you go outside, it seems like there isn't a pandemic going on at all".

I feel like you want these ridiculous rules back so you can be empowered to report people who's views you don't like.


Relevance?

As to the op:

I am not sure mods monitor the boards. They really can’t if you figure how many regions exist. Still it can turn into the bad lands. Filing a mod report can assist on that.

Maybe also give the region owners the ability to handle their message boards?

The rules on covid lies/misinformation should remain in place until the pandemic is declared over.
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

User avatar
Minoa
Senator
 
Posts: 4905
Founded: Oct 05, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Minoa » Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:51 am

Quebecshire wrote:Another clear example of something that needs to be re-evaluating is COVID-19 misinformation. That being ruled not actionable in response to GHRs is another concern. Again, the times could be an excuse there, vaccine denialism and other disease nonsense was not as big of a deal before the pandemic, but we need to be doing better with that too.

I agree that we have to take a tougher line against the promotion of dangerous conspiracy theories that have been repeatedly been disproven, such as Q-Anon, White Genocide and COVID-5G whatever that nonsense is — especially in light of Christchurch in 2019, and the storming of the Capitol earlier this year.

The climate of the internet in 2009, when the current forum first went online, is very different to the internet culture of 2021. We are now sadly dealing with organised disinformation operations, and dangerous hate groups like Q-Anon and the Alt-Right, who are not interested in civilised debate, but instead recruiting as many people as possible before directing them to attack people that they do not like.

I know that this is not the kind of internet we want to live in, but under the current circumstances we have to adapt the site rules to address current threats.
Mme A. d'Oiseau, B.A. (State of Minoa)

User avatar
The Black Forrest
Post Czar
 
Posts: 47129
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:33 pm

Minoa wrote:
Quebecshire wrote:Another clear example of something that needs to be re-evaluating is COVID-19 misinformation. That being ruled not actionable in response to GHRs is another concern. Again, the times could be an excuse there, vaccine denialism and other disease nonsense was not as big of a deal before the pandemic, but we need to be doing better with that too.

I agree that we have to take a tougher line against the promotion of dangerous conspiracy theories that have been repeatedly been disproven, such as Q-Anon, White Genocide and COVID-5G whatever that nonsense is — especially in light of Christchurch in 2019, and the storming of the Capitol earlier this year.

The climate of the internet in 2009, when the current forum first went online, is very different to the internet culture of 2021. We are now sadly dealing with organised disinformation operations, and dangerous hate groups like Q-Anon and the Alt-Right, who are not interested in civilised debate, but instead recruiting as many people as possible before directing them to attack people that they do not like.

I know that this is not the kind of internet we want to live in, but under the current circumstances we have to adapt the site rules to address current threats.



And it was different in the before times. ;)

The comment on civilized debate is valid. I had an epiphany while listening to one of the capital police after they start convicting the insurrectionists. He was asked about nasty comments and he said they don’t bother him as it tells him the person doesn’t have any facts let alone an argument. We do see that here. The effort to soft troll, the dance along the line of flaming and baiting. The use of “you” with speculative arguments to draw away from a person’s point.

Even then the mods are there to deal with people who want to annoy people.
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

User avatar
Frisbeeteria
Senior Game Moderator
 
Posts: 26050
Founded: Dec 16, 2003
Anarchy

Postby Frisbeeteria » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:14 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:I am not sure mods monitor the boards.

In general, we don't.

At this moment, "The world contains 246,876 nations in 25,426 regions." Even assuming less than 1% are active, that's still 250+ regions. Some of them, especially some of the GCRs and RP regions, can generate 10-30 pages of content a day. There are generally 8-10 of us active on any given day, and it can take several hours to do our routine Mod Forum and GHR tasks, plus maybe another hour for backstage stuff. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not interested in doubling my workload by monitoring one to five RMBs (never mind 250+) on a daily basis. I like this site, but 16 hours a day of volunteer time is a bit much.

The Black Forrest wrote:Filing a mod report can assist on that.

No, filing a mod report is essential. If you want a mod to look at something, file a report. We won't see it otherwise.
Last edited by Frisbeeteria on Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
The North Polish Union
Senator
 
Posts: 3606
Founded: Nov 13, 2012
Moralistic Democracy

Postby The North Polish Union » Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:03 pm

Minoa wrote:
Quebecshire wrote:Another clear example of something that needs to be re-evaluating is COVID-19 misinformation. That being ruled not actionable in response to GHRs is another concern. Again, the times could be an excuse there, vaccine denialism and other disease nonsense was not as big of a deal before the pandemic, but we need to be doing better with that too.

I agree that we have to take a tougher line against the promotion of dangerous conspiracy theories that have been repeatedly been disproven, such as Q-Anon, White Genocide and COVID-5G whatever that nonsense is — especially in light of Christchurch in 2019, and the storming of the Capitol earlier this year.

The climate of the internet in 2009, when the current forum first went online, is very different to the internet culture of 2021. We are now sadly dealing with organised disinformation operations, and dangerous hate groups like Q-Anon and the Alt-Right, who are not interested in civilised debate, but instead recruiting as many people as possible before directing them to attack people that they do not like.

I know that this is not the kind of internet we want to live in, but under the current circumstances we have to adapt the site rules to address current threats.

Perhaps its because I come from a different cultural background than many of the users here, but I again disagree that a harder line needs to be taken. Although not in 2009 precisely (but closer to it than to our present day), the Arab Spring protests and Occupy Wall Street movements of 2011 and the Euromaidan protests of 2013 were all heavily linked to the ability to share information hostile to the established order online, and detractors of each movement accused them of using the internet to spread falsehood ('misinformation' in 2021-speak) and particularly for the Arab Spring took steps to ensure information was not accessible.

Of course, this can be used by bad actors as well. In 2011 the US and French governments used massive manipulation of public perception (including the internet) to justify the invasion of Libya and toppling Qaddafi; similarly, the Russians engaged in massive manipulation against Euromaidan, and this is even where the 'Russian troll' concept originated on the internet well before the 2016 US election.

There is not a huge difference between an Egyptian poster on NS in 2011 that protests Hosni Mubarak and the American poster on NS in 2021 that is critical of vaccine mandates. There is a huge difference between either of them and both the 2011 Egyptian that advocates jihad and sharia law as a replacement for Mubarak and the 2021 American that advocates for the violent overthrow of Biden.

Although all 4 imaginary individuals are expressly criticizing established authorities, the first two are likely within NS' rules while the second two are likely not. I think it should stay that way.

As someone coming from a country where for decades the Communist Party tightly controlled discourse and authorities dictated what was truth and what was misinformation to the populace, I prefer dealing with someone that hates water fluoridation to dealing with a Ministry of Truth that silently deletes all 'misinformation'. Keep the rules against advocating violence, but please do not punish users that post views other than what the Beloved Party says they can hold.
Topid wrote:the sock puppet of my enemy is just the hand of my enemy in a warm and fuzzy wrapping.
Petrovsegratsk wrote:NPU, I know your clearly a Polish nationalist, but wtf is up with your obssession with resurrecting the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth?
The yoshin empire wrote:Grouping russians with slavs is like grouping germans with french , the two are so culturally different.

.
Balansujcie dopóki się da, a gdy się już nie da, podpalcie świat!
Poland can into Moscow! And space!
POLAND
STRONG!

User avatar
Necroghastia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5108
Founded: May 11, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Necroghastia » Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:58 pm

Relden wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:ngl im one of those people of the opinion that relaxing the rona rules was a huge mistake

it's not like we're out of the woods and don't still have people trying to do everything they can to be plague rats

You tried reporting me on the grounds of "misinfo" for saying words to the effect to "if you go outside, it seems like there isn't a pandemic going on at all".

i mean, that objectively is misinformation. like i said, we are far from out of the woods with this shit, no matter how much you cover your eyes, and the only way out is to take it seriously.

I feel like you want these ridiculous rules back so you can be empowered to report people who's views you don't like.

*whose
Last edited by Necroghastia on Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Land of Spooky Scary Skeletons!

Pronouns: she/her

User avatar
Nilokeras
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1755
Founded: Jul 14, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Nilokeras » Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:55 pm

Frisbeeteria wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:I am not sure mods monitor the boards.

In general, we don't.

At this moment, "The world contains 246,876 nations in 25,426 regions." Even assuming less than 1% are active, that's still 250+ regions. Some of them, especially some of the GCRs and RP regions, can generate 10-30 pages of content a day. There are generally 8-10 of us active on any given day, and it can take several hours to do our routine Mod Forum and GHR tasks, plus maybe another hour for backstage stuff. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not interested in doubling my workload by monitoring one to five RMBs (never mind 250+) on a daily basis. I like this site, but 16 hours a day of volunteer time is a bit much.

The Black Forrest wrote:Filing a mod report can assist on that.

No, filing a mod report is essential. If you want a mod to look at something, file a report. We won't see it otherwise.

Which again is why I think it's worth considering re-calibrating what the GHRs are for to account for that need. GHRs at the moment are too hard to find and too difficult for players to keep track of - as I've noted, the bystander effect of having an invisible button to press is pretty insurmountable. Compare that to the forum style of moderation, where it's much more obvious whether or not a post has been reported. It's why I suggested keeping 'sensitive' reports (ie telegrams, other things that shouldn't be made public) within the sphere of GHRs but move the buik of routine moderation tasks (Flaming, trolling, etc) into the Moderation forum, perhaps in its own subforum to keep gameside and forumside reports separate. If you wanted, you could even create a 'report' button on a given RMB post a la 'quote' or 'like' that links to the moderation forum so that people are directed precisely where to go.
Last edited by Nilokeras on Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Frisbeeteria
Senior Game Moderator
 
Posts: 26050
Founded: Dec 16, 2003
Anarchy

Postby Frisbeeteria » Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:18 pm

Nilokeras wrote:If you wanted, you could even create a 'report' button on a given RMB post a la 'quote' or 'like' that links to the moderation forum so that people are directed precisely where to go.

The reason we have two reporting systems is that we have two unltimately-barely -connected game engines. Integrating gameside stuff with our current forums has always been a chore. There hasn't been any new integration in quite a while, and I don't anticipate that changing.

What will be changing ... eventually ... is a new system that integrates much more tightly. When that finally happens, requests like this can be addressed. Combined reporting is already on the short list.

User avatar
Lord Dominator
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7403
Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Corporate Police State

Postby Lord Dominator » Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:22 pm

Frisbeeteria wrote:
Nilokeras wrote:If you wanted, you could even create a 'report' button on a given RMB post a la 'quote' or 'like' that links to the moderation forum so that people are directed precisely where to go.

The reason we have two reporting systems is that we have two unltimately-barely -connected game engines. Integrating gameside stuff with our current forums has always been a chore. There hasn't been any new integration in quite a while, and I don't anticipate that changing.

What will be changing ... eventually ... is a new system that integrates much more tightly. When that finally happens, requests like this can be addressed. Combined reporting is already on the short list.

Would it be possible to perhaps link the GHR form onto RMB posts more directly, rather than the current two-click/kinda hidden way until then?
Last edited by Lord Dominator on Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Frisbeeteria
Senior Game Moderator
 
Posts: 26050
Founded: Dec 16, 2003
Anarchy

Postby Frisbeeteria » Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:39 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:Would it be possible to perhaps link the GHR form onto RMB posts more directly, rather than the current two-click/kinda hidden way until then?

[v] likes it hidden. She doesn't want to put a [report] button visible on every post. I think the two-click system is here for a while. If the Comms Dev Mgr wants to raise it, fine by me.

User avatar
Flanderlion
Minister
 
Posts: 2018
Founded: Nov 25, 2013
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Flanderlion » Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:45 pm

Frisbeeteria wrote:
Nilokeras wrote:If you wanted, you could even create a 'report' button on a given RMB post a la 'quote' or 'like' that links to the moderation forum so that people are directed precisely where to go.

The reason we have two reporting systems is that we have two unltimately-barely -connected game engines. Integrating gameside stuff with our current forums has always been a chore. There hasn't been any new integration in quite a while, and I don't anticipate that changing.

What will be changing ... eventually ... is a new system that integrates much more tightly. When that finally happens, requests like this can be addressed. Combined reporting is already on the short list.

Is an easier way for players to track their reports on it as well?
As always, I'm representing myself.
Information
Wishlist

User avatar
Lord Dominator
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7403
Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Corporate Police State

Postby Lord Dominator » Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:48 pm

Frisbeeteria wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:Would it be possible to perhaps link the GHR form onto RMB posts more directly, rather than the current two-click/kinda hidden way until then?

[v] likes it hidden. She doesn't want to put a [report] button visible on every post. I think the two-click system is here for a while. If the Comms Dev Mgr wants to raise it, fine by me.

Fair ‘nough

User avatar
Nilokeras
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1755
Founded: Jul 14, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Nilokeras » Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:12 pm

Frisbeeteria wrote:
Nilokeras wrote:If you wanted, you could even create a 'report' button on a given RMB post a la 'quote' or 'like' that links to the moderation forum so that people are directed precisely where to go.

The reason we have two reporting systems is that we have two unltimately-barely -connected game engines. Integrating gameside stuff with our current forums has always been a chore. There hasn't been any new integration in quite a while, and I don't anticipate that changing.

What will be changing ... eventually ... is a new system that integrates much more tightly. When that finally happens, requests like this can be addressed. Combined reporting is already on the short list.


The button was just a suggestion. I think the more important thing is to try and take some of the burden off of the GHR system given the flaws people have pointed out and redistribute it to the forum, which requires no additional feature changes and does a much better job of tackling the bystander effect - at least until the time when admin can finish the great big site overhaul that's in the works.

User avatar
Minoa
Senator
 
Posts: 4905
Founded: Oct 05, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Minoa » Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:26 pm

The North Polish Union wrote:
Minoa wrote:I agree that we have to take a tougher line against the promotion of dangerous conspiracy theories that have been repeatedly been disproven, such as Q-Anon, White Genocide and COVID-5G whatever that nonsense is — especially in light of Christchurch in 2019, and the storming of the Capitol earlier this year.

The climate of the internet in 2009, when the current forum first went online, is very different to the internet culture of 2021. We are now sadly dealing with organised disinformation operations, and dangerous hate groups like Q-Anon and the Alt-Right, who are not interested in civilised debate, but instead recruiting as many people as possible before directing them to attack people that they do not like.

I know that this is not the kind of internet we want to live in, but under the current circumstances we have to adapt the site rules to address current threats.

Perhaps its because I come from a different cultural background than many of the users here, but I again disagree that a harder line needs to be taken. Although not in 2009 precisely (but closer to it than to our present day), the Arab Spring protests and Occupy Wall Street movements of 2011 and the Euromaidan protests of 2013 were all heavily linked to the ability to share information hostile to the established order online, and detractors of each movement accused them of using the internet to spread falsehood ('misinformation' in 2021-speak) and particularly for the Arab Spring took steps to ensure information was not accessible.

Of course, this can be used by bad actors as well. In 2011 the US and French governments used massive manipulation of public perception (including the internet) to justify the invasion of Libya and toppling Qaddafi; similarly, the Russians engaged in massive manipulation against Euromaidan, and this is even where the 'Russian troll' concept originated on the internet well before the 2016 US election.

There is not a huge difference between an Egyptian poster on NS in 2011 that protests Hosni Mubarak and the American poster on NS in 2021 that is critical of vaccine mandates. There is a huge difference between either of them and both the 2011 Egyptian that advocates jihad and sharia law as a replacement for Mubarak and the 2021 American that advocates for the violent overthrow of Biden.

Although all 4 imaginary individuals are expressly criticizing established authorities, the first two are likely within NS' rules while the second two are likely not. I think it should stay that way.

As someone coming from a country where for decades the Communist Party tightly controlled discourse and authorities dictated what was truth and what was misinformation to the populace, I prefer dealing with someone that hates water fluoridation to dealing with a Ministry of Truth that silently deletes all 'misinformation'. Keep the rules against advocating violence, but please do not punish users that post views other than what the Beloved Party says they can hold.

I understand this is a very difficult situation, but I do have legitimate concerns about the site being a target of bad actors such as the promoters of dangerous conspiracy theories that justify racism, xenophobia (unrelated to immigration policy) and violence — there is no excuse in my opinion for anyone to justify such things in a democratic society. The developments in TRR’s RMB are concerning to me.

I have stated COVID-5G as an example, due to the conspiracy theory leading to a wave of arson attacks on critical infrastructure. Nothing in my post suggest suppressing the criticism of the established order, especially with the Pandora Papers which exposed misconduct in taxation by many world leaders. I am myself very critical of the Brexit, and China’s attitude to Hong Kong, but I know there are ways to counter that without justifying racism, xenophobia or violence.

At the end of the day, it will take more than me to figure out how exactly we are going to deal with the promotion of dangerous conspiracy theories that have resulted in racism, xenophobia (unrelated to immigration policy) and violence. It is not an easy task.
Mme A. d'Oiseau, B.A. (State of Minoa)

User avatar
Vikanias
Diplomat
 
Posts: 978
Founded: May 01, 2020
New York Times Democracy

Postby Vikanias » Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:32 pm

I’ve been looking at this thread for the past few days and I’ll give my two cents in:

Overall the mods themselves are fine, but for the future it’s seems iffy. The mods can’t moderate the site forever, they are mortal and a 60 year old with dementia won’t moderate as well as a teen or an adult. Let’s say we have a moderator whi has been here since the site was founded. You have to be 13 to post on the forums so let’s say our moderator for this case just turned 13 and are actively on the forums. For the first 3 years kf their time on NS they make a good impression on the player base and get suggested to be a mod. Our now 16 YO is now a moderator. His addition to the mod team is well received. They don’t return and our a tube in the site tiday. But less active when they were a teen. Our fake mod is now in his early thirties. Most people begin to think about the future since the prime time of their life in the 20’s are now gone. You have responsibilities now, maybe kids and a full time job. Our moderator simply can’t moderate as efficiently as before so he retires from the mod team. He doesn’t CTE yet and stays on. But life has prevented him from being as active.

For our second example let’s take a mod who is younger to the site. Let’s say they are 16. At firstthey go unnoticed and begin to help people, with this good vibe they become a mod. Over the next few years they are well liked and seen as a good mod. But our mod is now 19 and college is getting in the way. With high costs the mod doesn’t retire and simply CTE’s. Putting more time on staying afloat economically than moderate a site where they ain’t getting payed.

For our third example let’s say our current mods have all retired or CTE’d. A new generation of mods come and start at the job. Most are younger people but they seem competent. I would say many would especially the older players feel different about this new team. They aren’t the ones they have interacted with in the last few decades and don’t warm up as easily as newer players who didn’t react with the mods much. Most of the new team is good and are generally in the range of being liked. Except for one mod who thinks he’s hot shit. It’s weird how he got in in the first place but whatever. He’s very snarky and comes off as a dick to everyone while flaunting how good he is. The new mods don’t pay much attention to our mod and this just increases his ego. Let’s say a year has gone by and people are settled to the new mods. Our mod is still as snarky and egotistical as ever but he’s not going any time soon. Until a new nation is founded that talks back to the mod adn shatters is glass ego. Our mod flips his shit and DEATS this nation. At this point many players are pissed off and some leave while others show signs of protest. This doesn’t go without a look by the others and he quickly begs demoted from his position and thus quits the site as his power trip has ended.

This is my grain of salt on this, waht will happen when the mods are gone and others come to replace them (some good some bad).
AAAAA IM ON FIRE!!! WHAT ARE YOU DOING THERE READING THIS SIG COME HELP ME FOR GODS SAKE AAAAAAA!!!!!!


(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

User avatar
Lord Dominator
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7403
Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Corporate Police State

Postby Lord Dominator » Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:10 pm

Mod appointments and retirings do happen fairly regularly, it just happens that a few of them tend to be more visible on the forum.

User avatar
The North Polish Union
Senator
 
Posts: 3606
Founded: Nov 13, 2012
Moralistic Democracy

Postby The North Polish Union » Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:24 am

Minoa wrote:
The North Polish Union wrote:Perhaps its because I come from a different cultural background than many of the users here, but I again disagree that a harder line needs to be taken. Although not in 2009 precisely (but closer to it than to our present day), the Arab Spring protests and Occupy Wall Street movements of 2011 and the Euromaidan protests of 2013 were all heavily linked to the ability to share information hostile to the established order online, and detractors of each movement accused them of using the internet to spread falsehood ('misinformation' in 2021-speak) and particularly for the Arab Spring took steps to ensure information was not accessible.

Of course, this can be used by bad actors as well. In 2011 the US and French governments used massive manipulation of public perception (including the internet) to justify the invasion of Libya and toppling Qaddafi; similarly, the Russians engaged in massive manipulation against Euromaidan, and this is even where the 'Russian troll' concept originated on the internet well before the 2016 US election.

There is not a huge difference between an Egyptian poster on NS in 2011 that protests Hosni Mubarak and the American poster on NS in 2021 that is critical of vaccine mandates. There is a huge difference between either of them and both the 2011 Egyptian that advocates jihad and sharia law as a replacement for Mubarak and the 2021 American that advocates for the violent overthrow of Biden.

Although all 4 imaginary individuals are expressly criticizing established authorities, the first two are likely within NS' rules while the second two are likely not. I think it should stay that way.

As someone coming from a country where for decades the Communist Party tightly controlled discourse and authorities dictated what was truth and what was misinformation to the populace, I prefer dealing with someone that hates water fluoridation to dealing with a Ministry of Truth that silently deletes all 'misinformation'. Keep the rules against advocating violence, but please do not punish users that post views other than what the Beloved Party says they can hold.

I understand this is a very difficult situation, but I do have legitimate concerns about the site being a target of bad actors such as the promoters of dangerous conspiracy theories that justify racism, xenophobia (unrelated to immigration policy) and violence — there is no excuse in my opinion for anyone to justify such things in a democratic society. The developments in TRR’s RMB are concerning to me.

I have stated COVID-5G as an example, due to the conspiracy theory leading to a wave of arson attacks on critical infrastructure. Nothing in my post suggest suppressing the criticism of the established order, especially with the Pandora Papers which exposed misconduct in taxation by many world leaders. I am myself very critical of the Brexit, and China’s attitude to Hong Kong, but I know there are ways to counter that without justifying racism, xenophobia or violence.

At the end of the day, it will take more than me to figure out how exactly we are going to deal with the promotion of dangerous conspiracy theories that have resulted in racism, xenophobia (unrelated to immigration policy) and violence. It is not an easy task.

The problem I have is that someone has to decide what groups are promoting racism, xenophobia, and violence. Using the examples I mentioned in my previous post, both the Occupy Wall Street and Euromaidan protesters were accused of being white supremacists/neo-Nazis and the Arab Spring protesters were accused of being jihadis/Muslim fundamentalists; in several cases these accusations were made by powerful state actors. As I said earlier, in cases when concessions are made to avoid 'conspiracy' they will tend to favor the established order, but that is not every established order since governments and other powerful actors are often in conflict; criticism of China's Hong Kong policy may be acceptable (and even encouraged) here but it is certainly not in China and NS has little (or no) presence in mainland China.

In the protests in Iran in late 2019, Ayatollah Khamenei blamed the protests on a conspiracy of "all of the centres of villainy around the world that oppose us." While most of us would disagree with his assessment (which is itself likely rooted in anti-Semitism), a hypothetical Iranian NS poster could have come and requested that expression of support for the protests be prohibited as "dangerous conspiracy theories that have resulted in [...] violence". Both sides may have a case here, and is it better if the Western consensus prevails and 'support for violence' is permitted, or that said such 'violence' is banned and critical discussion of the Iranian state is stifled? Likewise, should NS have platformed 'neo-Nazis' by allowing posters to voice support for Euromaidan, or should they have cut off that discussion and avoided such 'neo-Naziism' but also avoided discussion of the Yanukovych government's corruption?

Having an 'outside perspective' from a non-English-speaking country it seems to me that much of the controversies of the past several years stem from alarm in the English-speaking world that the use of and actions encouraged by the internet that has been occurring for many years outside the West has finally caught up to them. Where in the past governments were criticized by the West for restricting their internet during national crises or otherwise sanitizing it, now there are calls to do exactly that at home to prevent violence, which has been the claim for nearly every country that previously restricted internet content. For me personally, not being American or Russian, it is difficult to see an objective difference between the US protest on 6th January and the Russian protests that began roughly 3 weeks later; both are accused of being rioters and far-right-wing conspiracy-theorists by their governments and both wanted the resignation of the de jure leader and a return to what they believe is a 'more democratic' form of government. These are simply the facts, anyone is free to disagree with the true motivations of either group, but it is certain that even on this site support for the different protests is viewed very differently. Ought discussion of one necessarily be regulated more strictly than the other to void supporting violence?

Obviously in this case the discussion is more philosophical than concrete. As was mentioned on the first page, none of TRR's RMB posts were actually reported. No matter the rules, posts need to actually be reported to be acted on. However, I would say that the existing rules prohibiting the encouragement of violence are more than adequate. My understanding is that encouraging NS users to burn down 5G towers would be prohibited currently but if the crazies that think 5G is a conspiracy are shut out of the site simply because some of them may commit IRL crimes, then critics of Vladimir Putin would need to be shut out as well.

Frisbeeteria wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:Would it be possible to perhaps link the GHR form onto RMB posts more directly, rather than the current two-click/kinda hidden way until then?

[v] likes it hidden. She doesn't want to put a [report] button visible on every post. I think the two-click system is here for a while. If the Comms Dev Mgr wants to raise it, fine by me.

One problem I have is that the GHR system is more un-intuitive than it needs to be. Is there a middle ground between putting a report button on each post and hiding the GHR link at the bottom of the FAQ page?
Topid wrote:the sock puppet of my enemy is just the hand of my enemy in a warm and fuzzy wrapping.
Petrovsegratsk wrote:NPU, I know your clearly a Polish nationalist, but wtf is up with your obssession with resurrecting the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth?
The yoshin empire wrote:Grouping russians with slavs is like grouping germans with french , the two are so culturally different.

.
Balansujcie dopóki się da, a gdy się już nie da, podpalcie świat!
Poland can into Moscow! And space!
POLAND
STRONG!

User avatar
Frisbeeteria
Senior Game Moderator
 
Posts: 26050
Founded: Dec 16, 2003
Anarchy

Postby Frisbeeteria » Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:24 pm

The North Polish Union wrote:Is there a middle ground between putting a report button on each post and hiding the GHR link at the bottom of the FAQ page?

It already exists.

Click the timestamp (2 hours ago) on the post or telegram you want to report. The post opens in a new solo window with a Report link on the lower right. Click the Context link to go back to the RMB where you were.

User avatar
CoraSpia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12669
Founded: Mar 01, 2014
Anarchy

Postby CoraSpia » Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:59 am

Frisbeeteria wrote:
The North Polish Union wrote:Is there a middle ground between putting a report button on each post and hiding the GHR link at the bottom of the FAQ page?

It already exists.

Click the timestamp (2 hours ago) on the post or telegram you want to report. The post opens in a new solo window with a Report link on the lower right. Click the Context link to go back to the RMB where you were.

Thanks, I was starting to wonder if I was losing it a bit there, reading all the mentions of a report link for ghr posts and thinking 'this literally exists.'
GVH has a puppet. It supports #NSTransparency and hosts a weekly zoom call for nsers that you should totally check out

User avatar
All Wild Things
Envoy
 
Posts: 289
Founded: Apr 24, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby All Wild Things » Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:17 pm

Nilokeras wrote:
Frisbeeteria wrote:The reason we have two reporting systems is that we have two unltimately-barely -connected game engines. Integrating gameside stuff with our current forums has always been a chore. There hasn't been any new integration in quite a while, and I don't anticipate that changing.

What will be changing ... eventually ... is a new system that integrates much more tightly. When that finally happens, requests like this can be addressed. Combined reporting is already on the short list.


The button was just a suggestion. I think the more important thing is to try and take some of the burden off of the GHR system given the flaws people have pointed out and redistribute it to the forum, which requires no additional feature changes and does a much better job of tackling the bystander effect - at least until the time when admin can finish the great big site overhaul that's in the works.

I think Nilokeras has made some great points in their 3 posts. The difference between raising a GHR and a forum moderation post is huge. In the OPs example of TRR, giving people had visibility of what had and hadn't been reported would be helpful.
I'm also very much a fan of having the option to report something publicly, or in private, whether gameside or forumside.

Previous

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to Moderation

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bracadun, Ioudaia

Advertisement

Remove ads