Regarding Regions & Nations Glorifying Nazi Ideology

[Prydania]

Nazis have a bad habit of assuming everyone who is against Nazism must be a "leftist."

Pray tell, what exactly makes moderates and rightwing people inherently nazis? The fact that they're not leftwing? xD

Moderates and right wing people aren't Nazis, aren't thus aren't affected by this ban. What the hell are you going on about?

[Fedel]

Pray tell, what exactly makes moderates and rightwing people inherently nazis? The fact that they're not leftwing? xD

Moderates and right wing people aren't Nazis, aren't thus aren't affected by this ban. What the hell are you going on about?

That seems to be what they were suggesting in their post, or else why bring up nazis at all?

The original post they responded to was in relation to the potential future banning of the Confederate flag that was discussed on the previous page.

[Tsaivao]

Banishing people and openly detesting a violent and tyrannical ideology is not "elevating" it, what are you on about? It is much better to openly shun naziism than pretend like we have to give them a voice. There is no debate necessary, so why should we pretend like there should be?


The fact that you think that banning nazis means that this is a ban of moderates and right-wing people is telling enough.

If their ideas hold no power, do not act like they do by pretending they have inherent danger. Unless your problem is an inherent lack of confidence in people themselves. Though I think in the end that's all leftist's problem and it's the main thing that divides them from their opposition.

-

I stated that the leftists doing this would make the divide clear. Clearly the divide is those that believe humanity is capable and responsible enough to be able to understand why something is wrong and avoid it and those who don't ( unless you view the former group as nazis ).

Unfortunately, there are plenty of people in this world who are easily manipulated or convinced to believe in things that they know should be wrong (or maybe they believe in it because it's wrong). You can't simultaneously adopt a stance of "it is self-evident that Naziism is a bad ideology that people shouldn't listen to" and "We must not allow censorship of Nazi's because censorship bad." If it were truly that case that "leftists" simply lack confidence in people's rational decision-making skills, then why does Naziism even still exist at all? Either that, or you're implying that we think anyone right of center is a nazi, in which case please get off twitter for a few moments and consider that arguments are (sometimes) more civil here.

Or are you trying to insinuate that right-winged people shouldn't have problems with Nazi's since it's only the leftists causing a "divide"?

In any case, no complaining about "muh censorship" is gonna do anything, what is done is done. I personally wish the mods would go way farther than this but I'll accept this victory for now.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Banishing people and openly detesting a violent and tyrannical ideology is not "elevating" it, what are you on about? It is much better to openly shun naziism than pretend like we have to give them a voice. There is no debate necessary, so why should we pretend like there should be?


The fact that you think that banning nazis means that this is a ban of moderates and right-wing people is telling enough.

If their ideas hold no power, do not act like they do by pretending they have inherent danger. Unless your problem is an inherent lack of confidence in people themselves. Though I think in the end that's all leftists problem and it's the main thing that divides them from their opposition.

-

I stated that the leftists doing this would make the divide clear. Clearly the divide is those that believe humanity is capable and responsible enough to be able to understand why something is wrong and avoid it and those who don't ( unless you view the former group as nazis ).

Just because someone isn't literally a threat to your safety doesn't mean they aren't really unpleasant and toxic.

Just because someone CAN explain what is wrong with Nazism doesn't mean they want to do it every day. Some of those people will just pack up and go find another website to hang out on if there are too many Nazis. Unfortunately, some Nazis have A LOT of time on their hands, and they are very prolific -- making it a hassle to argue them down if you do not have as much time on your hands.

Furthermore, it is possible that Max or [v] were concerned about NationStates' reputation with advertisers. I don't know if this factored into the decision or not, but it is possible, since some advertisers do not want to be associated with white supremacist material, and there was a large quantity of Nazi nations. It's a bit of a "tragedy of the commons" situation. One person making a Nazi nation isn't a big deal -- but when everyone wants one, and some people make 3 or 4 or 20, well, this is why we can't have nice things.

I think it's unfortunate that we have to have this new policy, but I do kinda get where it is coming from. It is one thing to have a region with one Nazi nation and 49 other nations representing all different ideological, cultural, and historic themes. It is something else to have a region with 50 Nazi nations, many of whose owners have OOC white supremacist tendencies. And we did have several Nazi regions. I personally find Nazi regions much more problematic than individual Nazi nations, because of the region's ability to function as an echo-chamber.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Just because someone isn't literally a threat to your safety doesn't mean they aren't really unpleasant and toxic.

Just because someone CAN explain what is wrong with Nazism doesn't mean they want to do it every day. Some of those people will just pack up and go find another website to hang out on if there are too many Nazis. Unfortunately, some Nazis have A LOT of time on their hands, and they are very prolific -- making it a hassle to argue them down if you do not have as much time on your hands.

Furthermore, it is possible that Max or [v] were concerned about NationStates' reputation with advertisers. I don't know if this factored into the decision or not, but it is possible, since some advertisers do not want to be associated with white supremacist material, and there was a large quantity of Nazi nations. It's a bit of a "tragedy of the commons" situation. One person making a Nazi nation isn't a big deal -- but when everyone wants one, and some people make 3 or 4 or 20, well, this is why we can't have nice things.

I think it's unfortunate that we have to have this new policy, but I do kinda get where it is coming from. It is one thing to have a region with one Nazi nation and 49 other nations representing all different ideological, cultural, and historic themes. It is something else to have a region with 50 Nazi nations, many of whose owners have OOC white supremacist tendencies. And we did have several Nazi regions. I personally find Nazi regions much more problematic than individual Nazi nations, because of the region's ability to function as an echo-chamber.

And not at all because the same rule applied to regions, would see your nation deleted? If it was applied to nations. See:

Additionally, many "trophy" regions have been captured over the years by gameplay groups who oppose nazi-style ideologies, and while these regions now have no malicious intent, they probably appear malicious to people who see their names and never click through to examine their details. The new word block means these regions can be allowed to expire, as opposed to the previous situation where they had to be held indefinitely to prevent another player from refounding them.

Your nation name is funny. But you know some people have zero sense of humor.

My nation is well-known to the mods, and they said I could keep it.

The thing with Nazi regions is that some of them would kick out people that weren't OOCly Nazi enough. At that point, it is not just a name or an image. It's an echo-chamber where people can be radicalized. The idea that people should be willing to debate with Nazis and argue them down does not work if the Nazis have a private space where they can eject anyone they don't agree with.

[Shazbotdom]

It's a sad day when nation-states begins their descent into censorship

Check your calendar. I believe that day was sometime in late 2002 or early 2003 when Max originally posted the FAQ, which states:

> It's free speech, so I can post whatever I like here, right?

Ahahahaha! Hahaha! Free speech! No, it's not. I run this web site, see, so you have to play by my rules. It's like my own Father Knows Best state.

Come on Fris, we all know that people don't read the FAQ, even though they should.

[The Blaatschapen]

Check your calendar. I believe that day was sometime in late 2002 or early 2003 when Max originally posted the FAQ, which states:

Come on Fris, we all know that people don't read the FAQ, even though they should.

Well, that's a different problem.
Not a really solvable one. I once wrote a terms & conditions and secretly added a sentence where I owned their soul.

I am currently the owner of 3000 sports loving Dutch souls. But the legal department wasn't altogether happy with me.

In short: if people don't want to read, they won't. And there's no way to get them to otherwise.

[Coronational Chechyans and affiliates]

And not at all because the same rule applied to regions, would see your nation deleted? If it was applied to nations. See:



Your nation name is funny. But you know some people have zero sense of humor.

My nation is well-known to the mods, and they said I could keep it.

The thing with Nazi regions is that some of them would kick out people that weren't OOCly Nazi enough. At that point, it is not just a name or an image. It's an echo-chamber where people can be radicalized. The idea that people should be willing to debate with Nazis and argue them down does not work if the Nazis have a private space where they can eject anyone they don't agree with.

So Nazi isn't ok but their making exceptions? Is it a grandfathering type situation

[Tsaivao]

My nation is well-known to the mods, and they said I could keep it.

The thing with Nazi regions is that some of them would kick out people that weren't OOCly Nazi enough. At that point, it is not just a name or an image. It's an echo-chamber where people can be radicalized. The idea that people should be willing to debate with Nazis and argue them down does not work if the Nazis have a private space where they can eject anyone they don't agree with.

So Nazi isn't ok but their making exceptions? Is it a grandfathering type situation

Read the OP

[Kargintinia]

Important question: swastikas and the word Nazi are still permitted for roleplay purposes correct such as WW2 RP in P2TM? Just not in your nation name or flag?

[Minoa]

If their ideas hold no power, do not act like they do by pretending they have inherent danger. Unless your problem is an inherent lack of confidence in people themselves. Though I think in the end that's all leftists problem and it's the main thing that divides them from their opposition.

-

I stated that the leftists doing this would make the divide clear. Clearly the divide is those that believe humanity is capable and responsible enough to be able to understand why something is wrong and avoid it and those who don't ( unless you view the former group as nazis ).

Just because someone isn't literally a threat to your safety doesn't mean they aren't really unpleasant and toxic.

Just because someone CAN explain what is wrong with Nazism doesn't mean they want to do it every day. Some of those people will just pack up and go find another website to hang out on if there are too many Nazis. Unfortunately, some Nazis have A LOT of time on their hands, and they are very prolific -- making it a hassle to argue them down if you do not have as much time on your hands.

Furthermore, it is possible that Max or [v] were concerned about NationStates' reputation with advertisers. I don't know if this factored into the decision or not, but it is possible, since some advertisers do not want to be associated with white supremacist material, and there was a large quantity of Nazi nations. It's a bit of a "tragedy of the commons" situation. One person making a Nazi nation isn't a big deal -- but when everyone wants one, and some people make 3 or 4 or 20, well, this is why we can't have nice things.

I think it's unfortunate that we have to have this new policy, but I do kinda get where it is coming from. It is one thing to have a region with one Nazi nation and 49 other nations representing all different ideological, cultural, and historic themes. It is something else to have a region with 50 Nazi nations, many of whose owners have OOC white supremacist tendencies. And we did have several Nazi regions. I personally find Nazi regions much more problematic than individual Nazi nations, because of the region's ability to function as an echo-chamber.

Even without the advertisers, it does not take rocket science to understand the atrocities that Nazi Germany committed: with the Q-Anon stuff escalating into the storming of the Capitol earlier this year, as well as growing concerns of racism as a result of COVID-19, there has been growing pressure for the internet as a whole to do something about the glorification of hatred and violence, something that I have expressed concern about for quite some time on and off NationStates.

In addition to what the Free Joy State said, NationStates is meant to be a forum for political debate, but I recall how the promoters of Q-Anon threatened reasonable debate, even on NSG, because all they were interested in doing was recruit as many people as possible (through divisive propaganda that they claim to be free speech) before directing them to attack people that they do not like (source). I think I can say the same for the promoters of extreme-right ideologies such as neo-Nazism.

[THVLE]

The discussion of the black sun is a distraction from the main point of this thread.

This thread is outlining a policy regarding specific words and phrases relating to Nazism that was implemented at the request of senior figures who outrank the moderation team.

The moderation team have not been asked by these senior figures to look at additional visual symbols, so these lie outside the current scope of this policy change - and therefore outside the scope of this discussion. Existing policy on the use of specific symbols in flags and similar still applies, and is not up for discussion here; these will continue to be judged on a case by case basis as outlined in this post by [Violet] and this post by NERVUN (as originally written by [Violet]. If you think this needs discussing further, then please start a new Moderation discussion thread on banning symbols.


And really, the last person in NationStates who needs a lecture about the archaeological roots of particular European symbols, their (re)invention and manipulation by nationalist groups over the course of the 20th century, and/or their historical context is me.

Today, my flag featuring a Sun Wheel was deleted by moderators. Currently, I'm at risk of having my account deleted if my flag is deemed to be incompatible with this site's rules. If the Sun Wheel is banned, would it kill the mods to lose the ambiguity and say so openly? In thesethreads that were linked to me in that fateful moderator's telegram, there's clear and visible examples of symbols to steer clear of, a rule which I respected and followed. Why is it so that my former flag was singled out and deleted?

[Fartsniffage]

The discussion of the black sun is a distraction from the main point of this thread.

This thread is outlining a policy regarding specific words and phrases relating to Nazism that was implemented at the request of senior figures who outrank the moderation team.

The moderation team have not been asked by these senior figures to look at additional visual symbols, so these lie outside the current scope of this policy change - and therefore outside the scope of this discussion. Existing policy on the use of specific symbols in flags and similar still applies, and is not up for discussion here; these will continue to be judged on a case by case basis as outlined in this post by [Violet] and this post by NERVUN (as originally written by [Violet]. If you think this needs discussing further, then please start a new Moderation discussion thread on banning symbols.


And really, the last person in NationStates who needs a lecture about the archaeological roots of particular European symbols, their (re)invention and manipulation by nationalist groups over the course of the 20th century, and/or their historical context is me.

Today, my flag featuring a Sun Wheel was deleted by moderators. Currently, I'm at risk of having my account deleted if my flag is deemed to be incompatible with this site's rules. If the Sun Wheel is banned, would it kill the mods to lose the ambiguity and say so openly? In thesethreads that were linked to me in that fateful moderator's telegram, there's clear and visible examples of symbols to steer clear of, a rule which I respected and followed. Why is it so that my former flag was singled out and deleted?

Stop trying to be a Nazi. Problem solved.

If you are a Nazi then it seems you're not welcome here.

[THVLE]

Today, my flag featuring a Sun Wheel was deleted by moderators. Currently, I'm at risk of having my account deleted if my flag is deemed to be incompatible with this site's rules. If the Sun Wheel is banned, would it kill the mods to lose the ambiguity and say so openly? In thesethreads that were linked to me in that fateful moderator's telegram, there's clear and visible examples of symbols to steer clear of, a rule which I respected and followed. Why is it so that my former flag was singled out and deleted?

Stop trying to be a Nazi. Problem solved.

If you are a Nazi then it seems you're not welcome here.

I'm someone who's trying to have a flag that corresponds to the rules. I'm not in moderation to chat politics with you.

[The Blaatschapen]

The discussion of the black sun is a distraction from the main point of this thread.

This thread is outlining a policy regarding specific words and phrases relating to Nazism that was implemented at the request of senior figures who outrank the moderation team.

The moderation team have not been asked by these senior figures to look at additional visual symbols, so these lie outside the current scope of this policy change - and therefore outside the scope of this discussion. Existing policy on the use of specific symbols in flags and similar still applies, and is not up for discussion here; these will continue to be judged on a case by case basis as outlined in this post by [Violet] and this post by NERVUN (as originally written by [Violet]. If you think this needs discussing further, then please start a new Moderation discussion thread on banning symbols.


And really, the last person in NationStates who needs a lecture about the archaeological roots of particular European symbols, their (re)invention and manipulation by nationalist groups over the course of the 20th century, and/or their historical context is me.

Today, my flag featuring a Sun Wheel was deleted by moderators. Currently, I'm at risk of having my account deleted if my flag is deemed to be incompatible with this site's rules. If the Sun Wheel is banned, would it kill the mods to lose the ambiguity and say so openly? In thesethreads that were linked to me in that fateful moderator's telegram, there's clear and visible examples of symbols to steer clear of, a rule which I respected and followed. Why is it so that my former flag was singled out and deleted?

File a GHR if you want to appeal your flag deletion. https://www.nationstates.net/page=help

[CoraSpia]

Today, my flag featuring a Sun Wheel was deleted by moderators. Currently, I'm at risk of having my account deleted if my flag is deemed to be incompatible with this site's rules. If the Sun Wheel is banned, would it kill the mods to lose the ambiguity and say so openly? In thesethreads that were linked to me in that fateful moderator's telegram, there's clear and visible examples of symbols to steer clear of, a rule which I respected and followed. Why is it so that my former flag was singled out and deleted?

Stop trying to be a Nazi. Problem solved.

If you are a Nazi then it seems you're not welcome here.

I thought we agreed when it came to transparency? The moderation policy really does require an update, especially as there are fascist symbols that have not been banned by moderation in the past.

[Lamoni]

Stop trying to be a Nazi. Problem solved.

If you are a Nazi then it seems you're not welcome here.

I thought we agreed when it came to transparency? The moderation policy really does require an update, especially as there are fascist symbols that have not been banned by moderation in the past.

Stop trying to threadjack the thread. Also, just because we (moderation) may not have banned something in the past, does not mean that it might not be banned now.

[Fedel]

I thought we agreed when it came to transparency? The moderation policy really does require an update, especially as there are fascist symbols that have not been banned by moderation in the past.

Stop trying to threadjack the thread. Also, just because we (moderation) may not have banned something in the past, does not mean that it might not be banned now.

At least you're not even bothering to hide it at this point.

[Lamoni]

Stop trying to threadjack the thread. Also, just because we (moderation) may not have banned something in the past, does not mean that it might not be banned now.

At least you're not even bothering to hide it at this point.

There is nothing wrong with telling people not to threadjack a thread. You yourself have come close to a warning for the same, here. Also, since this thread seems to have outlived its purpose, iLock.