[Petition/Discussion] Harassment and Off-Site Evidence

[Consular]

When you have to use words like "technically" to qualify your statements, that says a lot.

[Kylia Quilor]

When you have to use words like "technically" to qualify your statements, that says a lot.

When I agree with Consular, you know there's something to what we're talking about.

[Todd McCloud]

Wait a minute, so even regional newspapers that discuss moderation challenges are essentially outside of their scope and must be moved to technical?

[The Empire of Pretantia]

When you have to use words like "technically" to qualify your statements, that says a lot.

But I'm not wrong.

[Enfaru]

Since someone questioned my response to the issues let me be thorough and quote from the OP.

Given the serious and often sensitive nature of such reported behavior, and out of consideration for all parties’ privacy while allegations are investigated, we want players to have the right to submit reports of harassment (sexual or otherwise), stalking, serious misrepresentation of identity (such as a known adult portraying themselves as a teenager in order to lure in younger players), and other predatory behavior via Getting Help Request, along with supporting and relevant evidence.

This is wrong, potentially harassment and very likely to be a breach of data protection for any sites other than the authorities themselves willing to entertain such an idea.

We want NS moderation to commit to investigating and verifying these reports, in the same way that our community moderators and admins do.

NS Moderation should not be investigating activities that are outside of Nationstates. Any crimes or incidents reported to Nationstates regarding to criminal behaviour should immediately be passed to the police and wait for court instruction before taking any further action. Again persecuting someone without evidence and Nationstates Moderators are not qualified to act legally on criminal matters, just what breaks the site rules (and that means activities on the site) is very likely a criminal matter and will more than likely get NS sued.

We want NS moderation to acknowledge that off-site punishments are insufficient, by themselves, to separate predators from potential victims, and to be willing to impose on-site punishments, up to and including DoS status, when a perpetrator’s behavior would have warranted those punishments if it had occurred on-site in the first place.

NS Moderation should not have any opinion on the moderation activities of other sites as other sites should not have an opinion on the moderation activities of Nationstates. This is professional courtesy. If Nationstates moderators believe that other sites are acting criminally (negligently or otherwise) then they should report the matter to the police and take no further action until a court order demanding otherwise.

And finally, we want DoS bans for harassment or abuse to be announced in public, in line with prior investigations into major cases of wrongdoing (as has been done in the past). Public acknowledgement that this kind of behavior does happen and demonstration that it is taken seriously are critical for forming and maintaining a community where harassment is not tolerated.

I swear this has been ruled on numerous times along the lines of a naming and shaming. DoS users are banished, posts removed and usch like. In effect, they never existed. This in my view is the best method for dealing with bullies. Don't given them any room to breath on nationstates and in doing so protect Nationstates users while they are on Nationstates. It would be wrong for Nationstates to take action against users for their behaviours outside of NS jurisdiction.

That's what the police is there for.

The petition is meritorious I grant, but fundamentally flawed as it fails to respect civil rights at its most basic. Nationstates are not internet police nor should they be. What happens if they publicly name and shame someone as a paedophile only to later find that they were framed? Can you imagine the compensation cost that Max Barry himself would actually have to bear? It's not just a case of "sorry sir my bad, have some free stamps". That person may literally have their life at risk because of such an accusation. Leave harassment and criminal matters to the relevant legal authorities and report all wrong doing immediately. Naming and shaming is asking to be sued.

[Pentaga Giudici]

I think it's a sign of how serious it is, when all of these people for this, actually agree with each other.

A lot of us don't like each other, at all...

[Consular]

When you have to use words like "technically" to qualify your statements, that says a lot.

But I'm not wrong.

This isn't about being right or wrong. It's about protecting people. I'm sorry that is lost on you.

[Proctopeo]

But I'm not wrong.

This isn't about being right or wrong. It's about protecting people. I'm sorry that is lost on you.

Dangerous thinking.

[Shazbotdom]

Since someone questioned my response to the issues let me be thorough and quote from the OP.

Given the serious and often sensitive nature of such reported behavior, and out of consideration for all parties’ privacy while allegations are investigated, we want players to have the right to submit reports of harassment (sexual or otherwise), stalking, serious misrepresentation of identity (such as a known adult portraying themselves as a teenager in order to lure in younger players), and other predatory behavior via Getting Help Request, along with supporting and relevant evidence.

This is wrong, potentially harassment and very likely to be a breach of data protection for any sites other than the authorities themselves willing to entertain such an idea.

We want NS moderation to commit to investigating and verifying these reports, in the same way that our community moderators and admins do.

NS Moderation should not be investigating activities that are outside of Nationstates. Any crimes or incidents reported to Nationstates regarding to criminal behaviour should immediately be passed to the police and wait for court instruction before taking any further action. Again persecuting someone without evidence and Nationstates Moderators are not qualified to act legally on criminal matters, just what breaks the site rules (and that means activities on the site) is very likely a criminal matter and will more than likely get NS sued.

We want NS moderation to acknowledge that off-site punishments are insufficient, by themselves, to separate predators from potential victims, and to be willing to impose on-site punishments, up to and including DoS status, when a perpetrator’s behavior would have warranted those punishments if it had occurred on-site in the first place.

NS Moderation should not have any opinion on the moderation activities of other sites as other sites should not have an opinion on the moderation activities of Nationstates. This is professional courtesy. If Nationstates moderators believe that other sites are acting criminally (negligently or otherwise) then they should report the matter to the police and take no further action until a court order demanding otherwise.

And finally, we want DoS bans for harassment or abuse to be announced in public, in line with prior investigations into major cases of wrongdoing (as has been done in the past). Public acknowledgement that this kind of behavior does happen and demonstration that it is taken seriously are critical for forming and maintaining a community where harassment is not tolerated.

I swear this has been ruled on numerous times along the lines of a naming and shaming. DoS users are banished, posts removed and usch like. In effect, they never existed. This in my view is the best method for dealing with bullies. Don't given them any room to breath on nationstates and in doing so protect Nationstates users while they are on Nationstates. It would be wrong for Nationstates to take action against users for their behaviours outside of NS jurisdiction.

That's what the police is there for.

The petition is meritorious I grant, but fundamentally flawed as it fails to respect civil rights at its most basic. Nationstates are not internet police nor should they be. What happens if they publicly name and shame someone as a paedophile only to later find that they were framed? Can you imagine the compensation cost that Max Barry himself would actually have to bear? It's not just a case of "sorry sir my bad, have some free stamps". That person may literally have their life at risk because of such an accusation. Leave harassment and criminal matters to the relevant legal authorities and report all wrong doing immediately. Naming and shaming is asking to be sued.

Someone get this man a drink. He hit it SPOT ON.

[Guy]

Enfaru’s posts represent where the discussion was maybe 9 pages ago. There is absolutely no impediment to NS moderators banning from the site people whom are known to have engaged in those behaviours. There are various options to do so without exposing NS to any sort of legal liability.

[Pentaga Giudici]

I've been noticing this for days, but most of the people arguing on one side have been on the site a lot longer.

Which is weird, because that means they should've seen this problem be disgusting and horrible for around ten years or so. They constantly talk about the laws or how things are too much work, and they speak like they don't use Discord.

Are these GPers or RPers or both?

[The Empire of Pretantia]

But I'm not wrong.

This isn't about being right or wrong. It's about protecting people. I'm sorry that is lost on you.

They're protected though, most sites have rules against harassment.

[Zaolat]

I've been noticing this for days, but most of the people arguing on one side have been on the site a lot longer.

Which is weird, because that means they should've seen this problem be disgusting and horrible for around ten years or so. They constantly talk about the laws or how things are too much work, and they speak like they don't use Discord.

Are these GPers or RPers or both?

The majority, if not all, Gameplayers in this thread side with Asta to at least the minimal degree. So, hopefully that sheds some light.

[Shazbotdom]

I've been noticing this for days, but most of the people arguing on one side have been on the site a lot longer.

Which is weird, because that means they should've seen this problem be disgusting and horrible for around ten years or so. They constantly talk about the laws or how things are too much work, and they speak like they don't use Discord.

Are these GPers or RPers or both?

Why does that matter?

We talking about something that if the information is incorrect and/or falsified and the Mods and Admins act on it that it would be considered Defamation of Character. Which, legally, is a very serious charge. If you are being harassed, take it to law enforcement. It's that simple.

[Dumb Ideologies]

I've been noticing this for days, but most of the people arguing on one side have been on the site a lot longer.

Which is weird, because that means they should've seen this problem be disgusting and horrible for around ten years or so. They constantly talk about the laws or how things are too much work, and they speak like they don't use Discord.

Are these GPers or RPers or both?

People who've been on this site a long time are probably more deeply invested and more cautious about changing things and potentially putting the site in legal difficulties, as well as being particularly concerned with the potential impact of increasing the moderators' workload, having experienced the difficulties caused by moderator shortages in the past.

[Consular]

I've been noticing this for days, but most of the people arguing on one side have been on the site a lot longer.

Which is weird, because that means they should've seen this problem be disgusting and horrible for around ten years or so. They constantly talk about the laws or how things are too much work, and they speak like they don't use Discord.

Are these GPers or RPers or both?

Why does that matter?

We talking about something that if the information is incorrect and/or falsified and the Mods and Admins act on it that it would be considered Defamation of Character. Which, legally, is a very serious charge. If you are being harassed, take it to law enforcement. It's that simple.

I feel like we've been over this many times now. The mods can ban whoever they want without repercussions -- they don't have to say why they are banning them and therefore do not expose themselves to any legal liability.

Also, what is this nonsense about one side being here longer? Some of the gameplayers who have signed this petition have been here since almost the very beginning.

[Hirota]

I've been noticing this for days, but most of the people arguing on one side have been on the site a lot longer.

Which is weird, because that means they should've seen this problem be disgusting and horrible for around ten years or so. They constantly talk about the laws or how things are too much work, and they speak like they don't use Discord.

Are these GPers or RPers or both?

Interesting assumptions there. Maybe it's right for some people, maybe it's not. Seems largely baseless thus far.

Me personally? I was a RPer on the World Assembly for 10 or so years. I use Discord and I'm a member of 5 or six off-site forums associated with NS, mainly in regional politics, but also to do with Resolution Drafting and also a collection of long standing World Assembly members too.

In that whole time I was active (and the rest of the time I've been semi-retired), I saw precisely one incident of harassment. Dude was banned from the region, banned from the forums. No other drama was required.

As for Discord, I'm a gamer, so it's mostly gaming discord sites, but I'm on the NS WA one. Come say Hi, I'm Hirota on there.

In short, the reason I don't see "this problem" is mainly because I simply don't see it as large of an issue as you do, mainly because in 13 years I've seen no widespread harassment, and maybe I'm not immersed in it anymore, but I've had long enough to have some exposure

[Guy]

I've been noticing this for days, but most of the people arguing on one side have been on the site a lot longer.

Which is weird, because that means they should've seen this problem be disgusting and horrible for around ten years or so. They constantly talk about the laws or how things are too much work, and they speak like they don't use Discord.

Are these GPers or RPers or both?

Why does that matter?

We talking about something that if the information is incorrect and/or falsified and the Mods and Admins act on it that it would be considered Defamation of Character. Which, legally, is a very serious charge. If you are being harassed, take it to law enforcement. It's that simple.

No, it wouldn't be. A site operator banning a user would never, on its own, expose them to legal liability. The site operator going around saying "Person X did A" might be considered defamation, if framed in words to that effect. Even "we've received a credible report of offsite misconduct relating to Player X, and have decided to ban them" would not expose moderation to any legal liability. But as I said, most gameplayers would be perfectly happy with unexplained bannings, if that's what it takes.

Law enforcement will not do anything about most of those instances, as has been explained endlessly in this thread (including by moderators). There is no reason why a person must pursue criminal (or quasi-criminal) sanctions to obtain relief from harassment.

The upshot is that you're wrong on both points. It's a shame that you were so certain.

[the Imperial Crown]

I've been noticing this for days, but most of the people arguing on one side have been on the site a lot longer.

Which is weird, because that means they should've seen this problem be disgusting and horrible for around ten years or so. They constantly talk about the laws or how things are too much work, and they speak like they don't use Discord.

Are these GPers or RPers or both?

People who've been on this site a long time are probably more deeply invested and more cautious about changing things and potentially putting the site in legal difficulties, as well as being particularly concerned with the potential impact of increasing the moderators' workload, having experienced the difficulties caused by moderator shortages in the past.

A lot of gameplayers switch main nations. Their original nations tend to be something silly or not indicative of the identity they've built for themselves within the game, so I'd advise against - in general - the belief that all of the older players are against this. I switched from this to Lord Ravenclaw in 2014, even though LR became my namesake nation when I founded it in 2013. TIC was still in use as my main due to my involvement in Osiris but when I needed to stitch up the stab wounds in my back, I switched to LR. Others will have similar tales.

I'm hitting a decade next April, and I have been fully on board with this petition from the beginning. I have spent too much time trying to shield vulnerable members of regional forums I'm part of over the years and I know too well how powerless so many of my fellow region admins feel on this topic. I am so tired of feeling powerless to protect people because they are using one of many methods to get around things and I wish I had better means to actually do something that is lasting.

[Escade]

Why does that matter?

We talking about something that if the information is incorrect and/or falsified and the Mods and Admins act on it that it would be considered Defamation of Character. Which, legally, is a very serious charge. If you are being harassed, take it to law enforcement. It's that simple.

No, it wouldn't be. A site operator banning a user would never, on its own, expose them to legal liability. The site operator going around saying "Person X did A" might be considered defamation, if framed in words to that effect. Even "we've received a credible report of offsite misconduct relating to Player X, and have decided to ban them" would not expose moderation to any legal liability. But as I said, most gameplayers would be perfectly happy with unexplained bannings, if that's what it takes.

Law enforcement will not do anything about most of those instances, as has been explained endlessly in this thread (including by moderators). There is no reason why a person must pursue criminal (or quasi-criminal) sanctions to obtain relief from harassment.

The upshot is that you're wrong on both points. It's a shame that you were so certain.

This ^

Also I think maybe I can see why moderation would not want to publicize the DOSing of players from a legal standpoint. However, preventing us from saying anything about what is happening also prevents awareness on the issue.

Why would some random noobs in this thread post things like "I've never seen harassment" unless they were ignorant on many levels or haven't really been on the internet or something.

[Enfaru]

@Guy,

No one should be subject to harassment, bullying, exclusion or discrimination without a fair and impartial trial. It's kind of why we have a legal system and human rights. Even the accused have rights.

If you have a criminal complaint you should file that complaint with the legal authorities or someone responsible who can forward the accusation on your behalf. That responsible individual should not take action upon themselves.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying harassment doesn't happen. I'm saying NS should deal with it if it happens within NS jurisdiction. If it doesn't, file it off to the police for them to investigate, because they have the necessary powers...and it's their job.

[Escade]

Unfortunately, it's almost like our society is imperfect. I do suggest you walk into your local precinct and file a harassment report and then come back and tell us how easy and simple it is. It isn't shafting the responsibility to someone else, its making the game safer for everyone.

[Small Huts]

Long past due. Please add my name to the petition.

[Enfaru]

Unfortunately, it's almost like our society is imperfect. I do suggest you walk into your local precinct and file a harassment report and then come back and tell us how easy and simple it is. It isn't shafting the responsibility to someone else, its making the game safer for everyone.

Well if you're going to accuse someone of a criminal act with the intention of having them removed from something, perhaps you should consider due process.

To be fair, I've never found filing a police report to be difficult and I've never actually had to go to the police station to do it. They come to me, I give them a statement, they go ahead and investigate.

[King HEM]

@Guy,

No one should be subject to harassment, bullying, exclusion or discrimination without a fair and impartial trial. It's kind of why we have a legal system and human rights. Even the accused have rights.

If you have a criminal complaint you should file that complaint with the legal authorities or someone responsible who can forward the accusation on your behalf. That responsible individual should not take action upon themselves.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying harassment doesn't happen. I'm saying NS should deal with it if it happens within NS jurisdiction. If it doesn't, file it off to the police for them to investigate, because they have the necessary powers...and it's their job.

I'm not going to throw yet another of my wall of texts here, but can we please stop talking about the police?

(1) The police are not responsive to internet harassment. They are barely responsive to regular claims of harassment. A typical problem that occurs is that if the harasser and the victim are in two different jurisdictions, the police will hot potato the issue back and forth claiming that it's the other jurisdiction's problems.

(2) Even if they police were 100% responsive, there are behaviors that do not necessarily rise to the level of criminal harassment that we might not want on Nationstates. There's nobody that we've banned in Europeia for harassment who committed criminal acts. That being said, their behavior was abhorrent and not anything we would want in this game. Would the police act if asked? Absolutely not. Does somebody need to act? Absolutely.