Discussion about R/D Game and RP Opting Out

[The Batorys]

It's controversial because it's a significant change to the game mechanic, and threatens the entire R/D game. We can't provide an opt-out to a single community of players (role play) without also offering it to other communities. So the GA authors and Generalites opt out. Then the kids running regional messageboard mini-chatrooms for their buddies (and NEVER appear on the forums) opt out.

Great, that sounds like a wonderful idea! Let everyone decide if they want to take a part in the R/D game. That way the right of anyone to swing their fist stops at the other person's nose. Everyone can choose if they want to compete in the game or not, raids can still happen and the RP community gets an exemption.

Despite the slippery slope argument, you've actually just solved the entire problem.

EDIT: I'm serious, why is this not being implemented?

Yep. If people want to play the R/D game, they can choose to do that. If they don't, then they can opt-out.

If the R/D game has, as its proponents insist, any merit, it won't die.

[The Batorys]

This is known as the slippery slope argument, also known as a logical fallacy.

Maybe they should be provided an opt-out as well. Not everyone wants to play a pointless point-and-click game that is meant for little more than an ego boost. I personally have no problem with R/D, but I can understand how some people don't want to have to worry about having their hard work being undone for no reason.

It's not that simple. It would require altering the game's code completely.

And? The game's code has been altered before.

And it would prevent us from having to have these threads that sow hostility and resentment between various NS communities every so often, as we currently seem to.

[The Batorys]

I have been defending the whole of my NS game life. I have long advocated for Native rights. Invaders are disruptive as are defenders to communities so I understand the outrage of most of the posters here.
My unrealistic ideas to overcome the problem.
Rather than an opt out from R/D it would be more effective to make it an opt in. Those that want to take part in R/D gameplay should opt in.
Founder inheritance :
A founder can nominate a nation to be placed into founder position should they CTE and remain that way for a certain amount of time. During that founderless window the region is locked down. Nations cannot enter. No one knows the password.
Regions that choose to opt in to R/D lose the founder. They are open to invade and be invaded. Their regions become warzones.

Regions that currently have no founder can apply for founder status (that would have to be admin / mod / GHR and pass a standard set by those) within 6 months the chance to gain founder status is closed and the region becomes a warzone.

To defenders posting here : Please do not use this thread in order to recruit others to your gameplay arena. Enough said.

Cool ideas.

[Voltrovia]

I have been defending the whole of my NS game life. I have long advocated for Native rights. Invaders are disruptive as are defenders to communities so I understand the outrage of most of the posters here.
My unrealistic ideas to overcome the problem.
Rather than an opt out from R/D it would be more effective to make it an opt in. Those that want to take part in R/D gameplay should opt in.
Founder inheritance :
A founder can nominate a nation to be placed into founder position should they CTE and remain that way for a certain amount of time. During that founderless window the region is locked down. Nations cannot enter. No one knows the password.
Regions that choose to opt in to R/D lose the founder. They are open to invade and be invaded. Their regions become warzones.

Regions that currently have no founder can apply for founder status (that would have to be admin / mod / GHR and pass a standard set by those) within 6 months the chance to gain founder status is closed and the region becomes a warzone.

To defenders posting here : Please do not use this thread in order to recruit others to your gameplay arena. Enough said.

Cool ideas.

Probably some of the most level-headed and effective ideas presented thus far. After all, it's the perfect compromise - if you want to play this part of the game, you can, if you don't want to, you don't have to.

It also seems to remove the potential for abuse by simply declaring your region to be for RP. Sure, the process of giving founder status might be a bit difficult but it could solve the problems the Roleplay community faces. It's a good compromise and one that might actually work quite well.

Seconded.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Elke and alba. Why it so difficult put some passwords, make delegate access barred and stop this endless crying about inequality between GPers and RPers and everything between and beyond that?

Why exactly RPers should have some special privileges, when everybody can opt out from Gameplay (including Gameplayers) if and when they want, by using same mechanics and options available for all players (including RPers).

If someone cannot keep his/hers Regional Founder alive (for firesure Opt out), do not claim it is fault of somebody else then fault of NS Player behind the CTE'd founder of the region, unable to Opt out from gameplay.

Because, based on the proposal on the Security Council against Haven, it has proven utterly useless to stop raiders when these regions have opted out and have a history of opting out and they go ahead and use the SC to liberate-to-invade a region they deem fit.

[The Batorys]

First off, I'm not going to go over every single post in this thread, tl;dr.

Alright, once you create a nation in NS, you are now officially a part of Gameplay. Military Gameplay (Known as R/D) is a subfacet of Gameplay that is legal within the rules.

Okay, that's out of the way now, if there were to be some sort of permanent opt out for RP it would mean either A) Not having an in-game region and all your RPs be based off of the NS forum or offsite or B) taking RP entirely out of Gameplay itself. The former is a personal choice RPers can make already, the latter would create an entirely different game altogether or in the least kill off Military Gameplay completely. Every region RPer or not will request to be opted out, period. Military Gameplay will die.

This argument has been brought up many times. If you conclude that only regions designated as "RP" be the only ones to opt out, either every region will claim to be "RP" or will ask that they be given the ability as well since it's inherently unfair that only RP regions can and not them.

Gameplay will always have Military Gameplay as a permanent fixture. That's mechanics. RP is not game mechanics, while I'm not saying it's irrelevant, it isn't a permanent fixture on the game itself.

If military gameplay can't exist without unwilling/highly reluctant participants who merely barely, grudgingly tolerate it, then it absolutely should die.

What you are essentially saying is that no one would play that aspect of the game if they were given the choice not to.

Is R/D that shitty, that it would go extinct without much of NS "participating" only because it's necessary to do the other shit that we actually like?

And if it is that shitty, why should it be preserved, if not enough people actually like it to sustain it?

I'm not trying to kill R/D. I'm actually confident that there are enough people to sustain it by choice. People against a working opt-out or opt-in feature are the ones asserting that it's so unpopular as to only be sustainable by making everyone play it, whether they want to or not.

[The Batorys]

First off, I'm not going to go over every single post in this thread, tl;dr.

Alright, once you create a nation in NS, you are now officially a part of Gameplay. Military Gameplay (Known as R/D) is a subfacet of Gameplay that is legal within the rules.

Okay, that's out of the way now, if there were to be some sort of permanent opt out for RP it would mean either A) Not having an in-game region and all your RPs be based off of the NS forum or offsite or B) taking RP entirely out of Gameplay itself. The former is a personal choice RPers can make already, the latter would create an entirely different game altogether or in the least kill off Military Gameplay completely. Every region RPer or not will request to be opted out, period. Military Gameplay will die.

This argument has been brought up many times. If you conclude that only regions designated as "RP" be the only ones to opt out, either every region will claim to be "RP" or will ask that they be given the ability as well since it's inherently unfair that only RP regions can and not them.

Gameplay will always have Military Gameplay as a permanent fixture. That's mechanics. RP is not game mechanics, while I'm not saying it's irrelevant, it isn't a permanent fixture on the game itself.

No. You see, to be marked as an RP region, you'd actually have to have an RP. If someone says, "This an RP region!" they have to produce an IC, and OOC, some factbooks or character sheets perhaps. They'd have to show that they actively continue to play with it. "RP" isn't a magical two-letter sticker you can slap on a region and suddenly have it hands-off. And no, maintaining those things for the sole sake of keeping your region would not be an easy task.

I actually think everyone should be able to opt-out if they want to.

If R/D is actually a good part of the game, there should be no threat of it "dying" at all, as people would presumably freely choose to play it.

[The Batorys]

Oh? And why couldn't the 'Miltary Gameplay' players still raid each other, possibly creating (as game mechanics allow) regions with non-executive founders as potential battlegrounds?

The main argument that I've seen "gameplayers" put up against that sort of gameplay is that it wouldn't be as much fun for them, because raiding is only really fun when there are natives to upset...
But isn't an admisssion that their raids have to upset natives to be really fun an admission of behaviour that, in any other aspect of the game, would be defined as "trolling" and punishable by the Mods?

Some people do indeed follow a view that is less empathetic to natives. I am not necessarily one of them, though at times I am cynical. But, as bad as it sounds, having some form of native plight does indeed make raiding and defending all that more worthwhile to participate in. It has actual effects. If ADMIN, just allowed the majority of regions to opt out and added a bunch more warzones, this would be very very boring tbh. The big names that attack warzones in the first place tend to be GCR regions that aren't specifically aligned in R/D and Defender regions. Raiders usually only hit them for training if at all.

I'm not entirely callous to say that the RPers should just go suck it, but I can't really advocate a change that large happen to my interest in the game, that being one part Military Gameplay and one part Gameplay Politics and/or government simulation. I'll get back to you on this.

If your game can't find enough people who actually want to play it to sustain itself, then your game is, quite frankly, shit.

But I'm not the one asserting that. I don't think R/D would die if people could opt-out. It's not fun for me, but people have different ideas about fun, so I'm sure it is fun for enough people that it would do just fine if people could choose not to play it.

[Coraxion]

On Haven. If Repeal Liberation goes through (everything else then sure), why RPers cannot arrange together little bit better and bigger Roleplay in the region then for "Roleplaying" "Gameplayers" out there? After succesful and interesting Roleplay in the WA SC, Liberation would then be possible set again and Roleplayers of Enormous Haven could again set password to their Holy Sacrosanct for preventing Evil Gameplayers come in to distrupt their Amazing Roleplays, which of course are more intelligent then utterly dull gameplay.

If The Sacrosanct is not that Holy it could not be then refounded by even more intelligent and interesting roleplay, it can be let waiting next Security Council Liberation.

[Vangaziland]

It's not right how the mods don't care about us. They keep pushing for that trivial game to exist. Guess what mods, it has nothing to do with the military. It's ironic how you will threaten and harass me for "flame jacking" because I'm angry about the troll game the mods endorse and allow. The fact that you'll threaten on the Fourth of July is absolutely offensive. Why don't you mods hop down from your high horse, in the spirit of humility and service and listen to what the people want. It's not right what you are doing. You just want us to shut up and let it go back to status quo.

Well on July 3rd, we declared our independence from this crappy genre of gaming. We also protest the meta gaming and defense of someone who has caused this high level mess.

You threaten us with bans for speaking out, but you quickly post a defense of the character who created this. Mall should resign. Don't step on our rights to free speech. This is not thread jacking or flaming. This is the truth.

Listen to some of the dozens of suggestions perhaps, in the name of being fair and representing others, not just a mod agenda to protect your buddy.

[Vangaziland]

Edited: a sarcastic response got a sarcastic answer..

[The Batorys]

It's not right how the mods don't care about us. They keep pushing for that trivial game to exist. Guess what mods, it has nothing to do with the military. It's ironic how you will threaten and harass me for "flame jacking" because I'm angry about the troll game the mods endorse and allow. The fact that you'll threaten on the Fourth of July is absolutely offensive. Why don't you mods hop down from your high horse, in the spirit of humility and service and listen to what the people want. It's not right what you are doing. You just want us to shut up and let it go back to status quo.

Well on July 3rd, we declared our independence from this crappy genre of gaming. We also protest the meta gaming and defense of someone who has caused this high level mess.

You threaten us with bans for speaking out, but you quickly post a defense of the character who created this. Mall should resign. Don't step on our rights to free speech. This is not thread jacking or flaming. This is the truth.

Listen to some of the dozens of suggestions perhaps, in the name of being fair and representing others, not just a mod agenda to protect your buddy.

Whoa, there, fella.

I've been pretty angry about this, too, but you're not making any sense.

[Coraxion]

That it could be very interesting Roleplay when trying gather enough roleplayers to form A Roleplay capable to block Gameplayers out from the Region.

(I'm Finnish and My English is not perfect and I've Consciousness about that fact.)

[Soldati Senza Confini]

That it could be very interesting Roleplay when trying gather enough roleplayers to form A Roleplay capable to block Gameplayers out from the Region.

(I'm Finnish and My English is not perfect and I've Consciousness about that fact.)

That'd be quite a clusterfuck and it'd detract roleplayers from actually roleplaying.

[Vangaziland]

The point is we have enough role players. Can't you see that we don't care about your game? So we do not want to put forth the effort to gather people to defend, and then sit there at update time early in the morning just to click buttons. It's silly.

[The Batorys]

I say again...

It has been posited by several of those arguing against a more secure opt-out measure that such would "kill" the R/D gameplay.

I do not believe this assertion, as it would seem that R/D is quite popular, and I think it would do just fine even if people could opt out of it... but let's just say for a second that they're right and if people could choose to opt out of R/D entirely, that aspect of the game would die...

If that was the case, why is a part of a game that according to its own proponents, doesn't have enough people who actually want to play it to survive, worth preserving? Why save a game that according to its own proponents, nobody actually wants to play?

[Coraxion]

The point is we have enough role players. Can't you see that we don't care about your game? So we do not want to put forth the effort to gather people to defend, and then sit there at update time early in the morning just to click buttons. It's silly.

But you've Magnificent energy rant (and also Click Buttons) here in Moderation on issues which are already under your control, but only if you want they are. It's silly.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

The point is we have enough role players. Can't you see that we don't care about your game? So we do not want to put forth the effort to gather people to defend, and then sit there at update time early in the morning just to click buttons. It's silly.

But you've Magnificent energy rant (and also Click Buttons) here in Moderation on issues which are already under your control, but only if you want they are. It's silly.

And again, this entire liberation proposal clearly indicates there's no control, no oversight on raids, no nothing that RPers can do about it.

[Mekhet]

The point is we have enough role players. Can't you see that we don't care about your game? So we do not want to put forth the effort to gather people to defend, and then sit there at update time early in the morning just to click buttons. It's silly.

In your case this would definitely be true, and I don't fault you for that. But gameplay mechanics are what they are, so Military Gameplay is integral to it's nature. Yes, you don't have to "participate" but you can protect yourselves.

No one on the Gameplay side is saying we should eliminate RP entirely, but RPers inadvertently or purposely advocate killing off the Military Gameplay side.

[Yasuragi]

The point is we have enough role players. Can't you see that we don't care about your game? So we do not want to put forth the effort to gather people to defend, and then sit there at update time early in the morning just to click buttons. It's silly.

But you've Magnificent energy rant (and also Click Buttons) here in Moderation on issues which are already under your control, but only if you want they are. It's silly.

You misunderstand.

We enjoy RPing.

Others enjoying raiding and defending.

Our roleplaying does not affect raiding and defending. Raiding and defending, on the other hand does affect our roleplaying.

The reason why we have so much energy and ranting and arguments is because a large amount of people are alarmed or angry that Gameplay (raiding and defending) is perceived as harming Forumside (roleplaying), yet again.

The point is we have enough role players. Can't you see that we don't care about your game? So we do not want to put forth the effort to gather people to defend, and then sit there at update time early in the morning just to click buttons. It's silly.

In your case this would definitely be true, and I don't fault you for that. But gameplay mechanics are what they are, so Military Gameplay is integral to it's nature. Yes, you don't have to "participate" but you can protect yourselves.

No one on the Gameplay side is saying we should eliminate RP entirely, but RPers inadvertently or purposely advocate killing off the Military Gameplay side.

Your scenario of everyone opting out assumes that, as Batorys has been saying multiple times, no one wants to play R/D. By not allowing RPers to have an 'opt out,' you're essentially forcing us to play your game.

When we complain, you give us options -- founders, delegates, password protections. We used them -- and now, raiders are back to circumvent the very same things they tell us to use to protect ourselves FROM raiding. You see the issue there?

Edit: Batorys' post included for an additional perspective/argument:

I say again...

It has been posited by several of those arguing against a more secure opt-out measure that such would "kill" the R/D gameplay.

I do not believe this assertion, as it would seem that R/D is quite popular, and I think it would do just fine even if people could opt out of it... but let's just say for a second that they're right and if people could choose to opt out of R/D entirely, that aspect of the game would die...

If that was the case, why is a part of a game that according to its own proponents, doesn't have enough people who actually want to play it to survive, worth preserving? Why save a game that according to its own proponents, nobody actually wants to play?

[The Serbian Empire]

On Haven. If Repeal Liberation goes through (everything else then sure), why RPers cannot arrange together little bit better and bigger Roleplay in the region then for "Roleplaying" "Gameplayers" out there? After succesful and interesting Roleplay in the WA SC, Liberation would then be possible set again and Roleplayers of Enormous Haven could again set password to their Holy Sacrosanct for preventing Evil Gameplayers come in to distrupt their Amazing Roleplays, which of course are more intelligent then utterly dull gameplay.

If The Sacrosanct is not that Holy it could not be then refounded by even more intelligent and interesting roleplay, it can be let waiting next Security Council Liberation.

The problem is one would need an impressive number in an RP to muster such a defense. I've seen regions with 20 members successfully raided to the point a flag's been removed. And that's probably not the largest region that the likes of The Black Riders and their kin have invaded.

[The Tump]

It's controversial because it's a significant change to the game mechanic, and threatens the entire R/D game. We can't provide an opt-out to a single community of players (role play) without also offering it to other communities.

Sounds good to me.

• 3 hours ago: The United Socialist States of Ave Sapientes 24 departed this region for The United Nations of Chester.
• 3 hours ago: The United Socialist States of Ave Sapientes 24 proposed constructing embassies with Sicarius.
• 3 hours ago: The United Socialist States of Ave Sapientes 24 altered the region's flag.
• 3 hours ago: The United Socialist States of Ave Sapientes 24 updated the World Factbook entry.
• 5 hours ago: The Confederacy of Hsipyereandueyie departed this region for The United Nations of Chester.
• 6 hours ago: The United Socialist States of Ave Sapientes 24 became regional WA Delegate.
• 6 hours ago: The United Socialist States of Ave Sapientes 24 arrived from The United Nations of Chester.
• 6 hours ago: The Warm Hugging TBR Teddies of Bone Crushers arrived from The United Nations of Chester.
• 6 hours ago: The Matriarchy of Ehehiteuliile arrived from The United Nations of Chester.
• 6 hours ago: The Confederacy of Hsipyereandueyie arrived from The United Nations of Chester.

So the GA authors and Generalites opt out. Then the kids running regional messageboard mini-chatrooms for their buddies (and NEVER appear on the forums) opt out. Eventually you're going to have nothing but one-nation, passworded regions left (of which there are thousands, with no way in), and you've killed the R/D game.

Is the R/D game the raison d'etre of NS, though? From the perspective of this nation, it seems to have become so, and all without hanging invitations out to anybody...

It's NOT simple. You want privileges not offered to other players, and that's just as unfair as your complaint about them forcing YOU to play.

For my part, I don't fool myself. I don't do much for the game (it's pretty much intellectual pursuits that I'm... well, pursuing). Consider me the kid sitting on the schoolyard wall reading a book, while various other gangs of kids rush around 'claiming' territories by some arbitrary rules I barely understand. (Yes, I was that kid. Need you ask?) Should I call over to the teacher to complain? No, I'd rather not. But from my perspective there are quite a lot of gangs doing quote a lot of rushing around and even if it's not disrupting my free time between classes (yet) it's quite obviously bothering others.

[Vaculatestar4]

A few points. Yes there is a way for you to defend yourself against what I'm going to call "malicious liberating". It's called vote the proposal down. Just as writers have their own campaigns to get it passed, campaign to fail it.

Secondly R/D people are not advocating the complete and total elimination of RPing from the game in fact there are more than a few of us, myself included, that take part in it, and are perfectly capable of writing some wonderful RP's. Should have seen what Osiris did not to long ago, or the stuff that The New Galactic Empire does, the list goes on and on. RPers on the other hand, are advocating the destruction of R/D, which in a way is worse than what happens to an RP region. So essentially you are advocating the destruction of a style of gameplay around which communities such as LKE, TNI, and others are centered around and are quite well known and famous for. We put a ton of work into perfecting our style of gameplay just as you have. It takes lots of practice to learn how to trigger, to then get good at it, to then get good at keeping a bunch of rowdy NSers inline for an entire update, to then be good at being the delegate of an operation and kicking out people from the otherside of the aisle when it is required, and finally to be able to properly use your influence as a Delegate to ensure that the operation is finished as quickly as humanly possible so that you can move on with other things.

Also there's ways to save your work, it's called save it in a Microsoft Word file or use a similar program, Also use off-site forums, that way your work isn't completely nuked from orbit if you happen to fall prey to a raid. Also, don't completely shut out the R/D community. As much as I disagree with Unibot on NS politics you people have completely taken a shit on him even though he does nothing more than try and protect regions from people like myself. I know I raid, I find it more entertaining than defending, hence why I do it, but that doesn't mean that I can't treat a defender decently, or treat an RPer decently.


Also on a completely unrelated note. Happy 4th of July to all of you Americans out there.

[The Serbian Empire]

A few points. Yes there is a way for you to defend yourself against what I'm going to call "malicious liberating". It's called vote the proposal down. Just as writers have their own campaigns to get it passed, campaign to fail it.

Secondly R/D people are not advocating the complete and total elimination of RPing from the game in fact there are more than a few of us, myself included, that take part in it, and are perfectly capable of writing some wonderful RP's. Should have seen what Osiris did not to long ago, or the stuff that The New Galactic Empire does, the list goes on and on. RPers on the other hand, are advocating the destruction of R/D, which in a way is worse than what happens to an RP region. So essentially you are advocating the destruction of a style of gameplay around which communities such as LKE, TNI, and others are centered around and are quite well known and famous for. We put a ton of work into perfecting our style of gameplay just as you have. It takes lots of practice to learn how to trigger, to then get good at it, to then get good at keeping a bunch of rowdy NSers inline for an entire update, to then be good at being the delegate of an operation and kicking out people from the otherside of the aisle when it is required, and finally to be able to properly use your influence as a Delegate to ensure that the operation is finished as quickly as humanly possible so that you can move on with other things.

Also there's ways to save your work, it's called save it in a Microsoft Word file or use a similar program, Also use off-site forums, that way your work isn't completely nuked from orbit if you happen to fall prey to a raid. Also, don't completely shut out the R/D community. As much as I disagree with Unibot on NS politics you people have completely taken a shit on him even though he does nothing more than try and protect regions from people like myself. I know I raid, I find it more entertaining than defending, hence why I do it, but that doesn't mean that I can't treat a defender decently, or treat an RPer decently.


Also on a completely unrelated note. Happy 4th of July to all of you Americans out there.

Off-site forums aren't an answer to everything. Who isn't to say the raiders can't coordinate an attack on the off-site forum?

[Rephesus]

They've done it before, and offsite wikis.

I think it was mentioned because mods can't act based on offsite action.