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Influence & feeders

Bug reports, general help, ideas for improvements, and questions about how things are meant to work.

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Oliver the Mediocre
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Postby Oliver the Mediocre » Fri Jun 03, 2011 5:56 am

Okay, none of these ideas are crazy enough yet.

Intended goal is to raise activity in the feeders, aye? Intended method of achieving this is making it difficult, but not impossible, to hold a feeder for a long period of time, AND to make the feeders desirable targets for people who want to hold them?

Now for a little dark, disturbing note from the UCR world. To us, the feeders are nothing but a resource to be mined. It's harsh but it's true. Francoist thought is not really wrong on that front.. I don't think it's as malicious or conscious as Franco believed, but we put up with your governments because you've got a lot of nations, and if you decided to rise up and be scary, you probably could... except that we've got founders and you don't.

Right. So. Feeder = Stripmine. Imagine that little cartoon device where starving people view their comrades in the raft as amusing, talking food. Feeders, especially those with any sort of Francoist ideology *cough* the Pacific *cough* will try to say that this is an unfair view. I say its time the game embraced it.

My idea is this. We put the Feeders on warzone rules. No crazy additions, no crazy limited banlists, just the pure warzone rules. Then, and this is the good part folks, then we utilize a mechanic like the Embassy/Annexation mechanic to establish a specific link between the feeder region and ONE UCR. Just one. This is important, because this link is, for lack of a better word at the moment, the "shuttle."

What does it do? Every nation that would have spawned in the feeder, now spawns in the UCR instead. Or if its easier on the game, every nation spawned in the feeder is automatically transferred on creation to the UCR.

An example. Lets say Europeia conquers the Pacific. You put in the request, and three or four days later (not sure how long it takes), assuming Europeia is able to hold the Pacific for that long, the Pacific is now linked to Europeia, and until somebody changes that, every nation that would spawn in the Pacific is spawned in Europeia instead.

If you're a recipient point for new nations like that, the feeder rules on recruitment apply. Europeia would now be open to RMB recruitment, and its residents would be open to one telegram each from other regions. But we all know that most of the nations don't move, and die four weeks later.

You want a war over the feeders? Now you've got one. You like your regional government as it is, Feeder governments? Don't establish the link. New nations spawn in your feeder... just have to make sure nobody coups you and takes your resources away, and makes you recruit like any other UCR.

Is it extreme? Absolutely. That's why I like it.
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Luna Amore
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Postby Luna Amore » Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:32 am

@Oliver
Would that apply to Lazarus and TRR too? So if you conquered Lazarus, all resurrected nations spawned in the UCR that conquered, for example.

It sounds like a unique idea to be sure.

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Oliver the Mediocre
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Postby Oliver the Mediocre » Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:37 am

Luna Amore wrote:@Oliver
Would that apply to Lazarus and TRR too? So if you conquered Lazarus, all resurrected nations spawned in the UCR that conquered, for example.

It sounds like a unique idea to be sure.


I think the sinkers would have to stay as they are, really. They're a different thing from the feeders, in many aspects.
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The Murtunian Tribes
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Postby The Murtunian Tribes » Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:34 am

Oliver the Mediocre wrote:Okay, none of these ideas are crazy enough yet.

Intended goal is to raise activity in the feeders, aye? Intended method of achieving this is making it difficult, but not impossible, to hold a feeder for a long period of time, AND to make the feeders desirable targets for people who want to hold them?

Now for a little dark, disturbing note from the UCR world. To us, the feeders are nothing but a resource to be mined. It's harsh but it's true. Francoist thought is not really wrong on that front.. I don't think it's as malicious or conscious as Franco believed, but we put up with your governments because you've got a lot of nations, and if you decided to rise up and be scary, you probably could... except that we've got founders and you don't.

Right. So. Feeder = Stripmine. Imagine that little cartoon device where starving people view their comrades in the raft as amusing, talking food. Feeders, especially those with any sort of Francoist ideology *cough* the Pacific *cough* will try to say that this is an unfair view. I say its time the game embraced it.

My idea is this. We put the Feeders on warzone rules. No crazy additions, no crazy limited banlists, just the pure warzone rules. Then, and this is the good part folks, then we utilize a mechanic like the Embassy/Annexation mechanic to establish a specific link between the feeder region and ONE UCR. Just one. This is important, because this link is, for lack of a better word at the moment, the "shuttle."
What does it do? Every nation that would have spawned in the feeder, now spawns in the UCR instead. Or if its easier on the game, every nation spawned in the feeder is automatically transferred on creation to the UCR.

An example. Lets say Europeia conquers the Pacific. You put in the request, and three or four days later (not sure how long it takes), assuming Europeia is able to hold the Pacific for that long, the Pacific is now linked to Europeia, and until somebody changes that, every nation that would spawn in the Pacific is spawned in Europeia instead.

If you're a recipient point for new nations like that, the feeder rules on recruitment apply. Europeia would now be open to RMB recruitment, and its residents would be open to one telegram each from other regions. But we all know that most of the nations don't move, and die four weeks later.

You want a war over the feeders? Now you've got one. You like your regional government as it is, Feeder governments? Don't establish the link. New nations spawn in your feeder... just have to make sure nobody coups you and takes your resources away, and makes you recruit like any other UCR.

Is it extreme? Absolutely. That's why I like it.

Yes. This is TOTALLY unbiased to large, militaristic userites. Although it would be amusing.
*Awaits shitstorm*
Last edited by The Murtunian Tribes on Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Make up your own mind
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Postby Make up your own mind » Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:57 am

What if new players spawned in random regions? Do away with feeders all together.
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The Murtunian Tribes
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Postby The Murtunian Tribes » Fri Jun 03, 2011 10:44 am

Make up your own mind wrote:What if new players spawned in random regions? Do away with feeders all together.


This has been brought up before. One, it makes recruitment impossible (which makes Oliver's suggestion unrealistic as well, as most recruitment systems don't work outside the feeders). Two, no new nation is gonna want to start in some god forsaken backwater with one other nation. Three, some regions are isolationist or elitist or based on certain types of nations and would not want new nations to pop up in their region that might not fit in with them.

In short the answer is a deafening NO.

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Make up your own mind
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Postby Make up your own mind » Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:05 am

You could make it so that nations could spend a certain amount of time in the feeders before choosing another region. Feeders wouldn't be legitimate regions in of themselves so much as a jumping off point.
Quotes of the moment:
"Power: It no longer just corrupts, it corrodes too." -Gauthier
"who needs certainty when you've got spaceships?" -Free Soviets
Samuraikoku wrote:
Enadail wrote:I'm not understanding why we should compromise justice, liberty, and rights?

Because "mass chaos will ensue".

Sociobiology wrote:yes because such people always want to believe they have a clue about psychology, come to think of it everyone does, must be a fluke caused by wiring us to model other peoples brains in ours.

Literature is dead
A tradition that has stood the test of time...
The Princess Prophecy!

It's a mixed bag really.
I don't hate Christians. I even have Christian friends. ;)
People's impact outlasts them, especially on a forum.
It get's better.

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Oliver the Mediocre
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Postby Oliver the Mediocre » Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:34 am

The Murtunian Tribes wrote:
Make up your own mind wrote:What if new players spawned in random regions? Do away with feeders all together.


This has been brought up before. One, it makes recruitment impossible (which makes Oliver's suggestion unrealistic as well, as most recruitment systems don't work outside the feeders). Two, no new nation is gonna want to start in some god forsaken backwater with one other nation. Three, some regions are isolationist or elitist or based on certain types of nations and would not want new nations to pop up in their region that might not fit in with them.

In short the answer is a deafening NO.


Oh no, we might all have to recruit by hand, instead of using a program/system to help? Oh the horror, what evil things the game does to us. :roll:
Oliver Marlowe
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Make up your own mind
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Postby Make up your own mind » Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:05 pm

Oliver the Mediocre wrote:
The Murtunian Tribes wrote:
This has been brought up before. One, it makes recruitment impossible (which makes Oliver's suggestion unrealistic as well, as most recruitment systems don't work outside the feeders). Two, no new nation is gonna want to start in some god forsaken backwater with one other nation. Three, some regions are isolationist or elitist or based on certain types of nations and would not want new nations to pop up in their region that might not fit in with them.

In short the answer is a deafening NO.


Oh no, we might all have to recruit by hand, instead of using a program/system to help? Oh the horror, what evil things the game does to us. :roll:


You wouldn't know where to recruit from though.
Quotes of the moment:
"Power: It no longer just corrupts, it corrodes too." -Gauthier
"who needs certainty when you've got spaceships?" -Free Soviets
Samuraikoku wrote:
Enadail wrote:I'm not understanding why we should compromise justice, liberty, and rights?

Because "mass chaos will ensue".

Sociobiology wrote:yes because such people always want to believe they have a clue about psychology, come to think of it everyone does, must be a fluke caused by wiring us to model other peoples brains in ours.

Literature is dead
A tradition that has stood the test of time...
The Princess Prophecy!

It's a mixed bag really.
I don't hate Christians. I even have Christian friends. ;)
People's impact outlasts them, especially on a forum.
It get's better.

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Oliver the Mediocre
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Postby Oliver the Mediocre » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:34 pm

Make up your own mind wrote:
Oliver the Mediocre wrote:
Oh no, we might all have to recruit by hand, instead of using a program/system to help? Oh the horror, what evil things the game does to us. :roll:


You wouldn't know where to recruit from though.


You don't think that some sort of link between regions like an embassy or an annexation might leave some sort of, some sort of code, some "hyperlink" if you will, between the two pages? Don't mean to be an overly-sarcastic guy here, but come on... :eyebrow:
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Todd McCloud
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Postby Todd McCloud » Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:09 pm

I have some ideas. I don't know if they've been discussed or not, but they might seem to help a bit:

  1. Speed up influence. In TEP, our last delegate was elected to a six-month term, which he served well and maintained about 150 endorsements. He had been in the region prior to being elected (about a year I think), but when his term was over he only had I believe a "truckler" influence rating. That's a bit harsh. Six months is a long time, especially in NS time. Why is it he was only able to climb up a few steps on the ladder? Speeding up influence could make the feeders a bit more dynamic.
    >
  2. We could spread out influence a bit evenly. Right now 99.99% of all nations in feeders are minnow, and only a small fraction are vassal and above (don't quote me on those statistics, this is just an educated guess). What if we created the distribution more gaussian, that is to say, we have a bunch of mid-influence people rather than minnows? Like influence gains quickly to reach a median, then takes a while to move up the upper tiers of the ladder?
    >
  3. What about 'donating' influence? Like say in TSP if Topid is indeed elected Bellz could 'donate' her influence to Topid to give him a bit more room to play around with. Likewise, if someone finds a few dissenters in a feeder and wishes to change the regime, he or she could ask to have influence donated to him or her from the dissenting nations.
    >
  4. Building on that, what if nations from other feeders could donate influence? Like say if TNP declared war on TWP and, using a point nation, had that nation move in and donated their influences from their nations in TNP to it so the delegate there had a tougher time to remove it from the region?

Any of these look good?
Last edited by Todd McCloud on Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Mahaj WA Seat
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Postby Mahaj WA Seat » Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:13 pm

What about 'donating' influence? Like say in TSP if Topid is indeed elected she could 'donate' her influence to Topid to give him a bit more room to play around with. Likewise, if someone finds a few dissenters in a feeder and wishes to change the regime, he or she could ask to have influence donated to him or her from the dissenting nations.


Full support! But also in UCR's...
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Todd McCloud
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Postby Todd McCloud » Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:15 pm

Mahaj WA Seat wrote:
What about 'donating' influence? Like say in TSP if Topid is indeed elected she could 'donate' her influence to Topid to give him a bit more room to play around with. Likewise, if someone finds a few dissenters in a feeder and wishes to change the regime, he or she could ask to have influence donated to him or her from the dissenting nations.


Full support! But also in UCR's...


(Btw she = Bellz, sorry about that) I like the idea in UCR's too, actually. It would definitely change the raiding and defending game.
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Mahaj WA Seat
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Postby Mahaj WA Seat » Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:18 pm

Todd McCloud wrote:
Mahaj WA Seat wrote:
Full support! But also in UCR's...


(Btw she = Bellz, sorry about that) I like the idea in UCR's too, actually. It would definitely change the raiding and defending game.

Actually, I don't know how much it will.

Think about it. Most of the raiders and defenders that come in are minnows. So a native might get a bunch of 'minnow' influence donated. So there wouldn't be much of a gain.

Same thing with the raiders.

So really, I don't know how much of an impact it would have.

It would have a greater impact in feeder regions in terms of coups.
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The Mahaj Factbook.


Author of Missing Minors Act (Repealed) and In Regards to Cloning
Mike the Progressive wrote:
Brogavia wrote:Fuck bitches, get money.
You shall be my god.

Georgism wrote:Fuck off you cunt, I'm always nice.

NERVUN wrote:Yog zap!

Cool Egg Sandwich wrote:I am the Urinater..... I'll be back.

Jedi Utopians wrote:5) Now, saying that a nation couldn't be part of OPEC would be bold. AIPEC sounds like something you'd want to get checked out by a physician for.


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The Murtunian Tribes
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Postby The Murtunian Tribes » Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:40 am

Mahaj WA Seat wrote:
Todd McCloud wrote:
(Btw she = Bellz, sorry about that) I like the idea in UCR's too, actually. It would definitely change the raiding and defending game.

Actually, I don't know how much it will.

Think about it. Most of the raiders and defenders that come in are minnows. So a native might get a bunch of 'minnow' influence donated. So there wouldn't be much of a gain.

Same thing with the raiders.

So really, I don't know how much of an impact it would have.

It would have a greater impact in feeder regions in terms of coups.

It would shorten the amount of time needed to grief a region. Not by a whole lot probably. What we really need is a fair system for being able to lose influence, or maybe just a cap to how much influence you can build up.

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Improving Wordiness
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Postby Improving Wordiness » Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:44 am

UCR's already have enough puppets placed just to bank influence. This idea would just increase that and make it simple to move in be elected delegate....donate all the banked influence from the puppets and grief it within a day.
Very bad idea.
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Make up your own mind
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Postby Make up your own mind » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:56 am

So, how would you lose influence?
Quotes of the moment:
"Power: It no longer just corrupts, it corrodes too." -Gauthier
"who needs certainty when you've got spaceships?" -Free Soviets
Samuraikoku wrote:
Enadail wrote:I'm not understanding why we should compromise justice, liberty, and rights?

Because "mass chaos will ensue".

Sociobiology wrote:yes because such people always want to believe they have a clue about psychology, come to think of it everyone does, must be a fluke caused by wiring us to model other peoples brains in ours.

Literature is dead
A tradition that has stood the test of time...
The Princess Prophecy!

It's a mixed bag really.
I don't hate Christians. I even have Christian friends. ;)
People's impact outlasts them, especially on a forum.
It get's better.

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The Murtunian Tribes
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Postby The Murtunian Tribes » Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:00 pm

Make up your own mind wrote:So, how would you lose influence?

Fuck if I know. I just know we need it.

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Make up your own mind
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Postby Make up your own mind » Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:02 pm

The Murtunian Tribes wrote:
Make up your own mind wrote:So, how would you lose influence?

Fuck if I know. I just know we need it.


Sanctions? viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3137&start=50 That's biased toward the larger regions though.
Quotes of the moment:
"Power: It no longer just corrupts, it corrodes too." -Gauthier
"who needs certainty when you've got spaceships?" -Free Soviets
Samuraikoku wrote:
Enadail wrote:I'm not understanding why we should compromise justice, liberty, and rights?

Because "mass chaos will ensue".

Sociobiology wrote:yes because such people always want to believe they have a clue about psychology, come to think of it everyone does, must be a fluke caused by wiring us to model other peoples brains in ours.

Literature is dead
A tradition that has stood the test of time...
The Princess Prophecy!

It's a mixed bag really.
I don't hate Christians. I even have Christian friends. ;)
People's impact outlasts them, especially on a forum.
It get's better.

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Sedgistan
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Founded: Oct 20, 2006
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Postby Sedgistan » Thu May 31, 2012 12:30 am

Bumping this up again, as [violet] suggested last year that she'd consider trialling some changes to how influence worked in the feeders. Plus that the only reason she hadn't yet was that she hadn't been nagged enough.

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Zemnaya Svoboda
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Postby Zemnaya Svoboda » Thu May 31, 2012 12:50 am

I have two things to say.

Firstly, I do think that influence as it is is a little bit too great on the nations that get more of it. It's easy to see the sheer astronomical magnitude of the influence on the more influential nations, and how most of it was gained a long time ago. I would be happy if some kind of exponential decay were added to influence even for active nations.

That said, Influence definitely should not be eliminated without replacement. Influence permits a relaxation of freedoms in some of the Pacifics, and allows TNP to survive as a region despite having many different Delegates. In the long run the original system would end with five tyrannical feeder regimes, particularly given that the game no longer allows for a "puppetmaster" attack like that which liberated TNP in 2004.

Allow me to make clear: if one simply removes influence in the feeders, with the rest of game functionality intact, then any feeder dictator can always hold on for however long they like without much effort at all.

In the current dynamic however when an influential nation gets popular support they can unseat a delegate, even one willing to ban opposition. It can be difficult and involve a long battle of attrition, but it is in the realm of the possible.

Balancing the system better? Definitely a good idea. Eliminating it altogether? Please for the love of freedom no.

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Astarial
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Postby Astarial » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:09 pm

Sedgistan wrote:Bumping this up again, as [violet] suggested last year that she'd consider trialling some changes to how influence worked in the feeders. Plus that the only reason she hadn't yet was that she hadn't been nagged enough.


Bumping this back up again, as the idea of removing influence from feeders has come up in at least one other tech thread, and I'm still hopeful that this bit about getting tweaks by nagging [violet] holds true.
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Jamie Anumia
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Postby Jamie Anumia » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:18 pm

Since the thread has been bumped back up, I'd thought I'd post my thoughts. Let me first state, I'm pro-influence. I don't personally want it going anywhere. Then again, I do believe influence does need to be tweaked, it's way too unbalanced in favour of older residents and too difficult for newer residents to make an impact, I don't know how this should be fixed, but something does need to be done. Influence should, in some form or other, in my opinion - stay in the GCR's. Removing it will destabilise the feeders/sinkers*, so like I said - it shouldn't be removed, modified - yes.

*Including the sinkers since Osiris, Balder and Lazarus have ban buttons.

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Sedgistan
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Postby Sedgistan » Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:24 am

One idea that was discussed behind the scenes earlier this year was to have influence valid only for X amount of time. That means that influence gathered before then is lost, meaning that nations don't gather obscene amounts of it, and also that nations have to remain active and keep their endorsements high to retain influence.

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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:42 am

A full-out removal of Influence in feeders would be reckless, because of the lack of puppetmaster tools. Moldavi and others voluntarily left their tyrannies.

But a discussion on how to alter influence isn't out of the question. Additionally, I think it is appropriate to treat UCRs and GCRs differently because there is a unique feeder culture; people in UCRs rarely acknowledge that strife is "good" in their regions, whereas this is a common sentiment in GCRs. There is also precedent for treating GCRs differently, since bans do not last in warzones.

I think the dissension button model could do what you would like to accomplish, Sedgistan. People could telegram people about having others "dissent" -- especially if dissention caused reductions in the absolute value of influence, instead of the growth.

What one would need to do is spend the first month sending messages about dissenting against the delegate and his trusted officials before couping, but here the problem is the old guard would be protected out of virtue of not being delegate at the time.

So perhaps the dissension button would work different in GCRs:
- Cuts an absolute value off influence.
- Available to be used against anyone.
- Dissent has more of an effect on people with more influence -- similarly in Real Life, political capital is a fickled bitch, since things tend to be more forgiving for newer politicians. Dissenting against a new tyrant to the region would have a minuscule effect, dissenting against Emperor Eluvatar (:P) would have a greater effect.

This would mean an efficient tyrant would have an opportunity with some hard work (using propaganda) to coup cleanly. An efficient old guard would have to work hard to counter propaganda regarding "dissent" telegrams.

Perhaps if Warzones used this dissent model, Feeders could adopt a diminishing-ban like Warzones have and thus all the GCRs could have the same consistent system for influence and bans and stuff (except TRR obviously). That sounds neat and tidy to me. >_>
Last edited by Unibot III on Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:02 am, edited 8 times in total.
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