Regional Influence Overhaul

[[violet]]

Difficult to do things like that without winding up with everyone using scripts to keep their nations logged in 24/7.

[Sigma Fistica]

Yeah..... maybe if you do regional activity at least once every half an hour (ex. send a TG)..... A script would have ot be advanced to do something like that and it would limit the abusers to very little...

[Topid]

Difficult to do things like that without winding up with everyone using scripts to keep their nations logged in 24/7.

If you did it the way she said that wouldn't help. The benefit would only be for logging in once a day... So why use a script to make it 24/7?

Maybe instead of that benefit applying to all nations, change the way the game is coded to add influence so that if a WA member has logged in since the last update his nation gets a small multiplier on his endorsements (like 1.1-1.3 or something). That way it still rewards more active nations but prevents people from abusing with scripts since we all only have one WA anyway.

[[violet]]

What I mean is that anything activity-based will inevitably cause somebody to write a script that automatically performs the activity. Then everyone will feel pressure to use that script so they're not missing out on Influence.

Not such a problem if it's a fairly low bar, like logging in once a week.

[Topid]

My point was that logging into one nation once a day is probably simple enough no one would use a script for it. We can do that usually with one click by the magic of auto login. Anyone serious enough about the game to care about influence will already log in to their WA once a day.

But if once a week is all you are willing to do it is better than nothing.

[Zandra]

My idea was more of rewarding those who are active in a region (and hopefully adding to it) more than those who simply move in a puppet and let it just sit there.

I suppose you could compare it to gaining influence for real, you don't really gain influence by just sitting on your butt, you get it by being active, contributing and showing your face around.

I guess I don't really see the problem..people already use scripts for tons of other things. And scripts are still allowed unless someone changed Sal's script rules.

[The Murtunian Tribes]

My idea was more of rewarding those who are active in a region (and hopefully adding to it) more than those who simply move in a puppet and let it just sit there.

I suppose you could compare it to gaining influence for real, you don't really gain influence by just sitting on your butt, you get it by being active, contributing and showing your face around.

I guess I don't really see the problem..people already use scripts for tons of other things. And scripts are still allowed unless someone changed Sal's script rules.

You have to reward puppets. Otherwise you still harm the raider/defender game. You should just speed up influence a little (particularly with endorsements).

[Zandra]

...Influence was introduced to protect the natives against griefers in an easier way than the invasion rules did.. I really don't see how this would harm the invader/defender game, just the griefers.

[The Murtunian Tribes]

...Influence was introduced to protect the natives against griefers in an easier way than the invasion rules did.. I really don't see how this would harm the invader/defender game, just the griefers.

Griefing was legalized under the advent of influence. And anyway the system's not that bad, but it would be if you introduced a system that rewarded activity, as opposed to time and endorsements.

[Zandra]

Griefing basically should've been made nearly impossible, in theory. It would still be based on time and endorsements, but with activity as addition.

[Ballotonia]

What I mean is that anything activity-based will inevitably cause somebody to write a script that automatically performs the activity. Then everyone will feel pressure to use that script so they're not missing out on Influence.

Not such a problem if it's a fairly low bar, like logging in once a week.

FYI, I already use a script to auto-login to all my nations. Once one gets to 100+ nations, such a script is useful

Ballotonia

[Naivetry]

Nations should absolutely lose Influence as if they've been absent from the region, if they've CTE'd and returned.

I'm not a coding monkey, but I'd presume that the influence of a given nation couldn't continue to "decay" while it is CTE'd - that would likely require the nation data to continue to update, even though the nation no longer "exists." However, I would expect that some sort of calculation/formula could be put in place upon resurrection. Or, more likely, upon the first update encountered after resurrection.

I started to worry about the 12-hour window that this would give people who wanted to take advantage of their original Influence level, but then I realized there isn't all that much you could do with it in 12 hours... if you could pull off resurrecting a long-dead high-Influence nation just in time to stop a region from being passworded/refounded or something, you would probably deserve a medal. So that should be fine.

I like CG's idea, and I wouldn't mind if the threshold was pretty low - though probably once a week should be the minimum. If you have to use a script to remember to log in once a week, you're probably not paying much attention to the side of the game that's affected by Influence, anyway.

[St Mason]

The idea that resurrected nations should come back with Influence as if they'd been outside the region for that time makes sense to me.

Any invaders/fendas want to chime in on this?

I'll chime in on this.

First of all if a nation leaves the game "CTE", that is what they did, with attention to dates, they could have signed is an retained their influence. Yet they did not, THEY LEFT THE GAME. why should they have rights at all. They should restart as a NEW nation does.

I think this should apply to founders who CTE'd as well for the exactly the same reason.

Influence in a region should exist, however, an advantage should be given to WA nations. Those with endorsements and/or WADS be given influence commiserate to number of endos.

I guess to carry this along all new nations to a region should be "Minnow" for at least three updates if they are not WA and if WA as "Minnow" for Two updates, then fall into the pattern established of WA nations. Their Endos on Wad or others would apply as established above.

[hr]

While I have already opened my yap... here goes. What ever happens to influence: There must be a stated recognition between Player Created Regions and Game Created Regions. (this was ignored up to date. So the Game Rules applying to Regional Recruiters was eliminated. this allows the Feeder WADs to ban/ject RMB recruiters as the y will. I think you can see this is not correct and in an extent does harm the game. by needlessly discouraging Player Created Regions (an very large portion of the game.)

[Wopruthien]

I think there definitely needs to be a reward to activity in the form of influence and not just to WA members.

My main nation has resided in this region since almost the day it was created and is the second in the length of residency, yet its influence has barely reached Truckler. I log on practically all the time and answer all sorts of issues yet my influence will only rise if I apply it to the WA and gain endorsements, which I am unwilling to do.

In regards to CTE, I'm in favour of them losing influence at the same rate as if they had left the region by moving to a new one. A player may have acquired a lot of influence and then due to circumstances beyond their control and the nation CTE'd only to return and they have to rebuild it all over again.

CrazyGirl's idea seems okay, I like the idea of rewarding activity but once a day seems too much, Nai's idea of once a week seems better. I don't think they should drop influence, just accumulate it at a slower rate than everyone else.

[The Murtunian Tribes]

I think there definitely needs to be a reward to activity in the form of influence and not just to WA members.

My main nation has resided in this region since almost the day it was created and is the second in the length of residency, yet its influence has barely reached Truckler. I log on practically all the time and answer all sorts of issues yet my influence will only rise if I apply it to the WA and gain endorsements, which I am unwilling to do.

In regards to CTE, I'm in favour of them losing influence at the same rate as if they had left the region by moving to a new one. A player may have acquired a lot of influence and then due to circumstances beyond their control and the nation CTE'd only to return and they have to rebuild it all over again.

CrazyGirl's idea seems okay, I like the idea of rewarding activity but once a day seems too much, Nai's idea of once a week seems better. I don't think they should drop influence, just accumulate it at a slower rate than everyone else.

No. That system has too much potential for abuse. Influence needs to based on something that's not totally within the sphere of control of your nation. Otherwise, you just end up with nations with massive gluts of influence, which is whats killing the feeders and the raiding/fending game in the first place.

Perhaps the answer is to put a cap on influence, based on the number of endoresments you have. That way nobody will be able to gain a monopoly over the influence of a region. At least not without having a huge number of endorsements over a long period of time. And even then, they would have to maintain those endorsements otherwise their influence would drop precipitously. This would encourage a style of play that, while you may not be able to attack a nation with large amounts of influence directly, you could attack their constituents (endorsers), which would cause their influence to plummet within maybe a few days time. Depending of course on the level of inluence the constituents posses themselves, but thats a moot point. Not only does this make sense to me on a gameplay level, it also works pretty well from a roleplay of things.

Oh, and yes, CTE'd nations should lose their influence just as if they had left the region if not faster. Regardless of what you think of my suggestion that much is obvious.

[Crazy girl]

I was going to point out to Murt here that it wasn't just based on activity, just that it would be an addition. Then thought..what's the use. Perhaps I should've listened to my friends a couple of years ago.

[Sedgistan]

No. That system has too much potential for abuse. Influence needs to based on something that's not totally within the sphere of control of your nation. Otherwise, you just end up with nations with massive gluts of influence, which is whats killing the feeders and the raiding/fending game in the first place.

In what way could it be abused? I'd be interested to hear - I know obviously that scripts would be an issue, but are there other ways?

I think that having influence gain being lessened when a nation hasn't been active for a period of time would make sense. Looking at it ICly (*gets shot by fellow gameplayers*) it doesn't make sense for a nation to increase in influence when its government is absent. From an OOC perspective, influence is supposed to protect natives of regions. I think it's fair to say that overall, native nations will be logged into more frequently than puppets parked in regions, although obviously there'll be exceptions. Yes, it'll be possible to get around the requirement, but it'd take effort.

As to how it could be done, I think that getting less influence after a week would be the best cut-off point - you don't punish those who lead busy lives and can't log in every day, and there isn't such a significant advantage for scripters. If more than one level could be introduced, you could have nations gain even less influence after 2 weeks and then 3 weeks, and finally none at all after 4 (ie when they're in vacation mode during the 28-60 days).

As for the utility of the change - it doesn't solve any of the major problems/gripes that people have about influence, but it'd make the gain of influence a bit more fair & realistic.

[St Mason]

I believe that WA membership should be a prime factor in Influence. My reasoning is that WA Membership is a sign of a main nation, (not at the moment a puppet). This influence should increase by the number of endos.

This is a basic in many D&D games (I.E. WA +1 influence).

Most difficult and the likely the reason influence modification is difficult is that there are so many other UNKNOWN factors also taken into account. I believe the method and factors involved were never revealed to the players is Because NOBODY knew or could understand the calculations. What we do know is the result is many unintended consequences, slow response and abuse.

YES a Regional Influence Overhaul is well past due.

[Crazy girl]

I know a lot of players who don't have their WA on their main nation. Mine's almost always on a puppet, and thanks to the brilliant plan of only being able to update once per cycle (I still hate that) we need to switch like a gazillion times per update.

[The Murtunian Tribes]

I know a lot of players who don't have their WA on their main nation. Mine's almost always on a puppet, and thanks to the brilliant plan of only being able to update once per cycle (I still hate that) we need to switch like a gazillion times per update.

Agreed, that is annoying. Anyway, while it is true that a lot of players don't use their main nation for WA, myself included (and you should too St. Mason, aren't you a raider?), quite frankly they don't need influence. Influence is only useful for WA nations.

No. That system has too much potential for abuse. Influence needs to based on something that's not totally within the sphere of control of your nation. Otherwise, you just end up with nations with massive gluts of influence, which is whats killing the feeders and the raiding/fending game in the first place.

In what way could it be abused? I'd be interested to hear - I know obviously that scripts would be an issue, but are there other ways?

I think that having influence gain being lessened when a nation hasn't been active for a period of time would make sense. Looking at it ICly (*gets shot by fellow gameplayers*) it doesn't make sense for a nation to increase in influence when its government is absent. From an OOC perspective, influence is supposed to protect natives of regions. I think it's fair to say that overall, native nations will be logged into more frequently than puppets parked in regions, although obviously there'll be exceptions. Yes, it'll be possible to get around the requirement, but it'd take effort.

As to how it could be done, I think that getting less influence after a week would be the best cut-off point - you don't punish those who lead busy lives and can't log in every day, and there isn't such a significant advantage for scripters. If more than one level could be introduced, you could have nations gain even less influence after 2 weeks and then 3 weeks, and finally none at all after 4 (ie when they're in vacation mode during the 28-60 days).

As for the utility of the change - it doesn't solve any of the major problems/gripes that people have about influence, but it'd make the gain of influence a bit more fair & realistic.

I suppose that could work, but like you said it doesn't really attack the main problem. It would have to be incorporated into another system for it to actually accomplish something.

For example, lets take my suggestion (hinthint ). Nation A has 5 endorsements. No matter how long he is in his region and no matter how active he is, he will not be able to gain more than a certain amount of influence. If he loses endoresments, he will lose influence, and conversely his influence will rise as he gains endorsements. For obvious reasons this rise/drop will not occur instantly, rather it will occur over time, just like it does now. Hopefully (I'm not familiar with exactly how influence is calculated) this will allow us to make use of a lot of the current coding, only requiring that a cap be put in place and possibly speeding up the process a bit. Since you insist, I suppose you could include a penalty for inactivity without really changing the basic premise of what I'm getting at, although it will undobtedly make the system very complex.

[Ballotonia]

The point of this idea eludes me. Supposedly it's to make it more difficult for someone (read: invader) to dump a puppet in a region and gain Influence just by it being there. Making Influence dependent on activity means all they'd have to do is use a cron job (Scheduled Task for windows users) to log into their nation(s) at least once a week. Boo yah. Benefit achieved: close to zero. Downside: sleepy natives get punished, and Admin has to bother implementing this. Why?!?

Ballotonia

[[violet]]

I think it has a mild benefit in that Influence is supposed to measure how "native" a nation is, and nations that log in once a month are not playing much of a role in their region. Even leaving invasions aside, it would be good for active nations to see their "Influence" label rising faster than inactive ones.

How difficult it is to code depends on the details. It would be very simple to add something like: if you haven't logged in for a week or more, you don't gain Influence that update.

[Topid]

I think it has a mild benefit in that Influence is supposed to measure how "native" a nation is, and nations that log in once a month are not playing much of a role in their region. Even leaving invasions aside, it would be good for active nations to see their "Influence" label rising faster than inactive ones.

How difficult it is to code depends on the details. It would be very simple to add something like: if you haven't logged in for a week or more, you don't gain Influence that update.

Could this be cut down to 3 days?

We all go more than 3 days without logging in sometimes. But for those of us active, it is rare. And for those fairly active it would still be pretty rare. And losing one or two updates worth of influence here and there is not a big deal in the long run.

IMO, if you go more than 3 days without logging in often enough for this to make a difference in influence levels basis you are not active.

[St Mason]

I think it has a mild benefit in that Influence is supposed to measure how "native" a nation is, and nations that log in once a month are not playing much of a role in their region. Even leaving invasions aside, it would be good for active nations to see their "Influence" label rising faster than inactive ones.

How difficult it is to code depends on the details. It would be very simple to add something like: if you haven't logged in for a week or more, you don't gain Influence that update.

There are already tools in place which could be used as a basis for establishing and modifying influence. The defining of “Natives” has basically been established with these tools.

Ever region has a means on listing ALL nations in region:
Sort by: Name | Length of Residency

Length of residency could well be used as an established tool, for it simply lists nation based on continuous time in region, which is the very basic indication of who is native or not. Nations which CTE or leave the region for any reason are placed at the end of the lists these nations are not dedicated members or long time natives.

Considering influence this should well serve as a base-line for influence. For it ranks nation, those who come and go lose influence, for they left the region, their leaving would advance all those ranked lower in influence. This should eliminate the complaints of nations entering a region having overly high influence not directly related to the region. For they would be a minnow, restored founders just by the nature of their founders status would retain all powers granted to them.

Influence could be earned or lost, based on a random or undisclosed timing (to prevent stacking influence gaining items to just before the influence update.

Influence could be earned based on national and regional activities as a general method.

1. Daily issues. They have the option one on or two a day –OR- none in vacation mode. Those who answer Daily issues would show active participation and gain influence (note: this is already part of NS). As such readily determinable activity. Detailed in each nation National Happenings.
2. Posting on RMB – this is a regional activity, and a practice healthy for the region. This is also readily determinable. Detailed in the nation National Happenings.
3. WA membership and individual voting on proposals – WA membership is essential for NS and the region activity for this activity strengthens the Game over all, in addition it is a verification of the status of the nation. As WA it is a main nation and not a puppet. Detailed in the nation National Happenings
4. Most Recent Government Activity – should also be considered in the assignment of Influence.

These three activities, could with influence equally based on these activities, would bring equality to the establishing of Influence within a region. For it would be based on the nations activity NOT some undeterminable calculation or secret formula, a fair and balanced procedure would have been established. The complex is nice but often leads to unintended consequences.

Another and additional calculation would have to be given to the regional WAD for they should be given some additional Influence due to their position in the region. In addition to the basis Influence they would warrant as a native. They should garner additional influence based on the number of endorsement they have been given. These endorsements could also be weighted by their provided and their regional influence. Of course the Nation with the highest number of endorsement would as in the past would gain the position of WAD; however their regional influence would be INFLUENCED BY THOSE who endorsed them.

[The Murtunian Tribes]

I think it has a mild benefit in that Influence is supposed to measure how "native" a nation is, and nations that log in once a month are not playing much of a role in their region. Even leaving invasions aside, it would be good for active nations to see their "Influence" label rising faster than inactive ones.

How difficult it is to code depends on the details. It would be very simple to add something like: if you haven't logged in for a week or more, you don't gain Influence that update.

There are already tools in place which could be used as a basis for establishing and modifying influence. The defining of “Natives” has basically been established with these tools.

Ever region has a means on listing ALL nations in region:
Sort by: Name | Length of Residency

Length of residency could well be used as an established tool, for it simply lists nation based on continuous time in region, which is the very basic indication of who is native or not. Nations which CTE or leave the region for any reason are placed at the end of the lists these nations are not dedicated members or long time natives.

Not true. People leave their regions for all sorts of reasons, some of which are strictly temporary. Diplomatic missions, recruitment, military exercises, etc. Length of residency is not a reliable tool to determine native from no native. Anyway I don't see why it matters; the need to distinguish who was a native pretty much died with the advent of influence anyway.

Considering influence this should well serve as a base-line for influence. For it ranks nation, those who come and go lose influence, for they left the region, their leaving would advance all those ranked lower in influence. This should eliminate the complaints of nations entering a region having overly high influence not directly related to the region. For they would be a minnow, restored founders just by the nature of their founders status would retain all powers granted to them.

This is how the system works currently. No one enters a region with influence unless they were already a resident, and even then if they've been gone for a long time they won't have any.

Influence could be earned or lost, based on a random or undisclosed timing (to prevent stacking influence gaining items to just before the influence update.

Influence could be earned based on national and regional activities as a general method.

1. Daily issues. They have the option one on or two a day –OR- none in vacation mode. Those who answer Daily issues would show active participation and gain influence (note: this is already part of NS). As such readily determinable activity. Detailed in each nation National Happenings.
2. Posting on RMB – this is a regional activity, and a practice healthy for the region. This is also readily determinable. Detailed in the nation National Happenings.
3. WA membership and individual voting on proposals – WA membership is essential for NS and the region activity for this activity strengthens the Game over all, in addition it is a verification of the status of the nation. As WA it is a main nation and not a puppet. Detailed in the nation National Happenings
4. Most Recent Government Activity – should also be considered in the assignment of Influence.

1. Not everyone likes to answer their issues. A lot of nations have already answered all of them, some have got their nations just where they want them. It's not a good indicator of activity.
2. Some nations prefer to post on offsite forums. I know in my region only a few people post on the RMB.
3. I thought you were a raider? You of all people should know that WA nations are not always main nations, in fact, more often than not they aren't. Anyway being in the WA does increase your influence, especially if you have endorsements.
4. Ok, this maybe could work. However, it's not good enough on its own. It still rewards just existing to some degree, since we already know no one here is going to require that you be active every day. Nor should they. It at best puts a small dent in the problem.

These three activities, could with influence equally based on these activities, would bring equality to the establishing of Influence within a region. For it would be based on the nations activity NOT some undeterminable calculation or secret formula, a fair and balanced procedure would have been established. The complex is nice but often leads to unintended consequences.

The problem isn't that the formula is undeterminable. Quite the opposite; it's overly predictable and stale. The real problem is that under the current system nations can gain massive amounts of influence and essentially monopolize power. The only possible solutions I see to this are:

1. A way of capping the amount of influence a nation can earn, regardless of how long they have been in a region.
2. Some way of being able to lose influence, despite having been in the same region.
3. Some combination of the first two.

You could always add in some way of using activity, too. It might actually mix quite well with this suggestion.

Another and additional calculation would have to be given to the regional WAD for they should be given some additional Influence due to their position in the region. In addition to the basis Influence they would warrant as a native. They should garner additional influence based on the number of endorsement they have been given. These endorsements could also be weighted by their provided and their regional influence. Of course the Nation with the highest number of endorsement would as in the past would gain the position of WAD; however their regional influence would be INFLUENCED BY THOSE who endorsed them.

I'm almost positive that that actually is true, the WAD gets extra influence. I KNOW that endorsements really help.