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Nation cap (public consultation)

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[violet]
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Nation cap (public consultation)

Postby [violet] » Tue Apr 28, 2026 7:00 pm

Hi all,

I'm looking at introducing a hard cap on the number of active nations we permit per player, possibly around 1,000 to 2,000.

Please use this thread for feedback and discussion. Nothing is set is stone yet, although we have a strong interest in doing something.

What: While most NationStates players control a single nation, and the great majority have five or fewer, a small number of players operate very large numbers of nations. By one estimate, about 0.2% of players control about 50% of nations, with about 25 people each controlling 2,000 or more active nations, and another 25 people each controlling 1,000 - 2,000 nations.

Mostly (but not exclusively), people maintain such large numbers to farm Trading Cards, which can only be earned by manually answering Issues. These are time-limited per nation, so the only way to earn more Trading Cards is with more nations.

Why: More nations consume more site resources. This is particularly true for nations that actively log in to answer issues, but even nations that don't do anything put pressure on two crucial parts of the site: the daily updates and the World Census rankers, which must process every nation in the world. We're able to manage this extra load, but we currently spend a disproportionate share of site resources and developer time on a small number of site users.

How: We would need to enforce the cap strictly, with repeated violations leading to a site ban, so that honest players would not be disadvantaged. We'd also need a grace period so nobody can get banned for nations they forgot about.

Our ability to enforce a cap will improve with the introduction of the Accounts feature (coming soonTM), and this will also help players avoid accidentally violating a cap. But the cap wouldn't be tied to Accounts, i.e. we'd run cheat detection regardless of whether people have an account.

Cap Number: There's nothing magical about 1k or 2k; that's just the point where the numbers start to look a bit silly. It could be lower or higher.

General Timeline: (1) Public discussion (2) Announcement of cap (3) Grace period with warnings / notifications (4) Enforcement.

Questions: I'm interested in feedback over whether this cap would impact you, and if so, how. What should the cap number be, do you think? How important is strict enforcement? What have we not thought of?

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Last edited by Sedgistan on Wed Apr 29, 2026 7:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Might Delete Later
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Postby Might Delete Later » Tue Apr 28, 2026 7:03 pm

absolutely outrageous

I'm unsure if it'd affect me right now but I still find it kinda dumb that this is a discussion, I'd assume the shutdown saved some space
Last edited by Might Delete Later on Tue Apr 28, 2026 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Greater Agnolia
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Postby Greater Agnolia » Tue Apr 28, 2026 7:04 pm

I can definitely see some outrage boiling for that but to be honest, it will basically never affect me at all, so don’t really care
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Siuslal
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Postby Siuslal » Tue Apr 28, 2026 7:05 pm

pretty high cap, i wouldn't mind that at all
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Postby Kaiyrzgsyzstan » Tue Apr 28, 2026 7:07 pm

i feel as if 1,000 is a good cap... to me thats still a holy crap bunch
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Postby Inevitable Poverty » Tue Apr 28, 2026 7:08 pm

Not that I card farm or anything, so I am probably not the one to say anything, but having a cap seems reasonable. Having over 1,000 nations seems quite overkill to me.
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Flanderlion
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Postby Flanderlion » Tue Apr 28, 2026 7:11 pm

I've said many times before (and pretty much everything you've laid out in the OP), but agree on the issue and solution. 1k strictly enforced max is fine. You'll have better stats than we do, but only a few exceptions will be hurt by this, as you said in the OP. For simplicity's sake, 1k max. If you want it to be more complicated, it could be a 1k max, but players with 2k could be temporarily allowed to keep existing nations, and then when they CTE they can choose which ones they wish to revive to remain under the 1k cap.

Possibly over 500 nations there should be a throttle of one nation created every 6 hours or so? As you don't want people seeing "this is a cap, I'll create all the nations I can to reach it" like people inevitably will.

I do think card pack generation needs to be addressed/decoupled from issues, as that was the cause for this issue getting out of hand, and is still not resolved years later. The game shouldn't be incentivising players to create as many puppets as possible.
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General TN
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Postby General TN » Tue Apr 28, 2026 7:14 pm

Regardless of the result, how do you intend to enforce it? Do you give said players who are over it right now a chance to choose which puppets of theirs are deleted or not?
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Cessarea
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Postby Cessarea » Tue Apr 28, 2026 7:16 pm

Agreed with Flanderlion's last point, and I would add that this wouldn't be much of an issue if the cards system didn't encourage card farming and creating alts so much. I'm willing to bet the amount of people who create over 1k nations just for the hell of it is tiny compared to the people who do so for farming.

There's also R/D use, but that's one that can't really be curtailed short of revisiting the site's entire approach to that part of the game, which I feel would satisfy no one. Including myself. R/D use alone would justify raising the limit a bit more though, if M/A would be willing to share stats on which percentage of users have what amount of nations, approximately.
Last edited by Cessarea on Tue Apr 28, 2026 7:22 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby Barchadi » Tue Apr 28, 2026 7:20 pm

This has my full support - it'll only impact a small number of users, who have most likely been trying to work around the issues limit in order to gather (and horde) trading cards. I wouldn't be surprised if some have multiple regions as well - I remember one player years ago had dozens of nations, all with near-identical names, each one having their own dedicated region. There's a good chance it may be having a negative impact on the rest of the site.


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Jiangbei
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Postby Jiangbei » Tue Apr 28, 2026 7:23 pm

Would you be open to allowing people to donate to NationStates for a higher puppet cap?

Do you plan on reworking the trading card system in general or not, to avoid this problem in the first place, or is it basically grandfathered in?

I'm not sure as to whether this is the case but I'd hope that the current puppetmasters over the limit were TGed for their opinions.

I would also like to make a distinction between those that use their puppets to do in-game actions, and those that just maintain puppets for the sake of it. Card farmers and R/D people at least use their puppets for things. Some people only maintain them for N-day, or don't use them at all (looking at you Chicken Overlords with your Womble puppets) Do you have any plans for how they can maintain the same functionality without puppets?
Last edited by Jiangbei on Tue Apr 28, 2026 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Caffeinated » Tue Apr 28, 2026 7:28 pm

I would first like to come out as categorically against this. I think the moment you set a hard cap many people will found up to or near that cap, so frankly I wouldn't be terribly surprised if in the long term this has little effect on the overall number of puppets on the site. Also would this cap only apply to active nations or nations founded total? Will there be a grandfather clause or will people who have spent many many hours creating, flagging, moving, and resetting passwords on puppets be forced to watch all that time go to waste? Are site resources really that strained? NS has had a higher number of nations at multiple points before.
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Kractero
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Postby Kractero » Tue Apr 28, 2026 7:28 pm

High puppet counts are usually for cards and r/d, mostly the former. Would a better solution be just changing how pack generation and card accumulation works rather than enforcing a puppet cap? That would naturally decrease the amount of puppets people have.
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Postby Cretian Territories » Tue Apr 28, 2026 7:31 pm

Oh that’s why the World setting on all the charts for Statistics are so low.
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General TN
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Postby General TN » Tue Apr 28, 2026 7:34 pm

Also in addition, I stand by a 4k - 6k cap personally, as I view 1k-2k as far too little. Important stuff to consider the use of puppets. The most important being for farming (Which is set up in a way that requires a lot of nations to do effectively), and R/D (sleepers / chasing), which are necessary for simple R/D game mechanics.

I fully agree that mass puppet making for mass puppet making should be clamped down on. But when it comes to those who have a lot of nations that serve a purpose, of which could instead see some addressing (specifically in cards) to reduce the use of mass puppets farms which were stimulated by the current card mechanics scene. (Essentially perhaps raising pack likelihood per issues, issue time etc)
Last edited by General TN on Tue Apr 28, 2026 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby New Makasta » Tue Apr 28, 2026 7:35 pm

Hi [v] as one of these players with over 2k accounts I have some math that makes 2k, well nearly impossible to work for me and the number of things I do, and can be willing to share information on how my puppets are used. But from some very rough estimates. I have over 2000 sleepers which are used for a variety of R/D purposes (can get exact numbers for you and the team soonish). Along with this I have a number of switcher nations that is used in R/D that due to how influence as a mechanic works, can not actively be sleepers in order to do day to day defender operations. This is in addition to be owning somewhere in the ballpark of 1100 regions. Which due to the mechanics of the game again can not overlap with the other two sets. I have other sets but I am already thinking of ways to merge and condense them down to be in line with the cap. But as it stands, I would be forced to give up doing certain aspects of this game with that limit.

Also not to mention that I do card farm on over 2000 nations (2372 to be exact) which admittedly can be merged into other sets (such as replacing founders of regions via governor transitions) but still. Any of them giving up is giving up tons of cards that I have spent years collecting.

Sorry for the rambling and the seemingly cope post. But if at all possible, I understand that 1-2k does seem like a lot but it simply would actually make me go crazy in trying to figure out "what regions do I keep", "what sleepers are more important" etc etc.
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Untecna
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Postby Untecna » Tue Apr 28, 2026 7:37 pm

Is it possible that we could have the cap only for the person running the Wombles? :p

In all seriousness, I think several players have already said it well enough, and many more would be on the way. Large puppet holdings don't just exist for card farming - they exist for R/D gameplay, too. A cap would cripple both of these game components in some form. The issue, though, appears to be with cards, and I think revamping the cards system would be far more efficient than forcing the removal of thousands of accounts and kneecapping individuals involved in R/D gameplay in particular.

That being said, if the implementation of a cap is a given, then it should be far greater than 1-2k per user. Makasta's example works well to demonstrate the utility of a greater number.
Last edited by Untecna on Tue Apr 28, 2026 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nation Transfers

Postby 2sara » Tue Apr 28, 2026 7:40 pm

Will there be a safe way to transfer nations implemented before this? Some people I know have puppet names that I want, if they transfer them they could be below the cap and not have to have those nations CTE

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Entropan
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Postby Entropan » Tue Apr 28, 2026 7:46 pm

There is a point in getting large puppet masters to justify every puppet directly to M/A, per Jiangbei, Makasta, and Untecna's points. Someone having 5000 nations for R/D, N-Day and farming is a lot different than someone having 5000 wombles.
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Postby Floofybit » Tue Apr 28, 2026 7:49 pm

You should be allowed one nation per days since the day you created your first nation

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Postby Kelios » Tue Apr 28, 2026 7:49 pm

I feel like there is certain reasons for this, however we should target inactive puppets like wombles rather than puppets used for trading cards.
The cap will probably redefine gameplay, and more aggressive recruitment strategies will happen.
Last edited by Kelios on Tue Apr 28, 2026 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Northwest Slobovia » Tue Apr 28, 2026 7:55 pm

[violet] wrote:Cap Number: There's nothing magical about 1k or 2k; that's just the point where the numbers start to look a bit silly. It could be lower or higher.

Yeah, but 1024 *looks* like a magic number to computer geeks, so it could be handwaved as a technical limitation. :p

[violet] wrote:Questions: I'm interested in feedback over whether this cap would impact you, and if so, how. What should the cap number be, do you think? How important is strict enforcement? What have we not thought of?


The cap wouldn't affect me; I have too few nations, and most of them are inactive now.

If you're gonna enforce a cap, you're gonna have to be strict about it. Otherwise, it becomes an unintentional game within the game, and I suspect that will lead to technical shenanigans with VPNs and illegal scripts, making the site worse for everyone.

As to the cap number, it would help if I had a better sense of the distribution of nations to players. OK, a tiny number of players have half the nations. But how many nations does the average/median player have? How many players have over 100 nations? I can't tell if the distribution is merely skew, or if it really goes, "one, two, three, thousands".
Last edited by Northwest Slobovia on Tue Apr 28, 2026 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jiangbei
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Postby Jiangbei » Tue Apr 28, 2026 7:56 pm

This is particularly true for nations that actively log in to answer issues, but even nations that don't do anything put pressure on two crucial parts of the site: the daily updates and the World Census rankers, which must process every nation in the world.


Why not let card farmers have their puppets opt out of stats, rankings, influence, policy changes due to issues, stuff like that, so they don't put load on the server but can still farm cards?

Many card farmers probably don't care about stats and would probably accept this if it meant running the server. R/D people also don't, though they'd not want to be revealed for having an abnormal nation so that may be difficult.
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Flanderlion
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Postby Flanderlion » Tue Apr 28, 2026 7:57 pm

Northwest Slobovia wrote:
[violet] wrote:Cap Number: There's nothing magical about 1k or 2k; that's just the point where the numbers start to look a bit silly. It could be lower or higher.

Yeah, but 1024 *looks* like a magic number to computer geeks, so it could be handwaved as a technical limitation. :p

Questions: I'm interested in feedback over whether this cap would impact you, and if so, how. What should the cap number be, do you think? How important is strict enforcement? What have we not thought of?

The cap wouldn't affect me; I have too few nations, and most of them are inactive now.

If you're gonna enforce a cap, you're gonna have to be strict about it. Otherwise, it becomes an unintentional game within the game, and I suspect that will lead to technical shenanigans with VPNs and illegal scripts, making the site worse for everyone.

As to the cap number, it would help if I had a better sense of the distribution of nations to players. OK, a tiny number of players have half the nations. But how many nations does the average/median player have? How many players have over 100 nations? I can't tell if the distribution is merely skew, or if it really goes, "one, two, three, thousands".

[v] is saying that approx 50 players have over 1k nations. 25 of them have between 1-2k, the other 25 have over 2k.
Last edited by Flanderlion on Tue Apr 28, 2026 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Northwest Slobovia
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Postby Northwest Slobovia » Tue Apr 28, 2026 8:00 pm

Floofybit wrote:You should be allowed one nation per days since the day you created your first nation

That's very generous of you, but I'm not sure if I really need over 7,000 nations.

Now, if I could figure out how to "rent them out" to card farmers and R/D folks, well! Now you're talking! :p
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