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[Suggestion] IC-Nation Macro

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Kiddian States
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Postby Kiddian States » Mon May 02, 2022 11:53 am

SherpDaWerp wrote:
Kiddian States wrote:Funny, I’ve never seen any npc nations have the things you mentioned
Well, considering you're aspiring to be an issues author, I recommend you read up on that. There are multiple threads maintained by various people that detail NPC nations, religions, and recurring speakers' general character with tips on how to write them.

Kiddian States wrote:When an ic nation makes more sense, then we’d use that, and vice versa
Yeah. But when does an IC nation make more sense? How do you know that an IC nation makes more sense without dragging in their characterisation? You'd end up having to have such specific requirements on which nations get used ("@@nation(religious, no abortion, open emigration, open tourism)@@ doesn't like their citizens going to @@name@@ for abortions!" - at that point just make a new NPC) that it would be pointless.

The only way this works is if it's a meaningless name-drop once in every 20 issues, where some speaker from within your nation says "C'mon, we need to boost manufacturing, we're worse than @@nation(high manufacturing)@@", which would quickly become gimmicky anyway. I know I'd get very sick of the umpteenth issue where someone on a science-boosting option says "I can't believe we're worse than @@nation(high science)@@!"

You'd also have to have a backup version for nations that don't have region-mates fitting the criteria, which would be an NPC nation, and at that point... just give everyone the backup anyway. Either you have @@nation(high economic freedom) || United Federation@@ (so just say "United Federation"), or you have to make doppelganger options that leave that whole sentence out (so more unnecessary work statting and editing two options for a tiny difference).

Wintermoot wrote:What if there was something like this for a new type of interactive issue chain involving multiple nations?
That sounds like a fantastic idea for Sedge & the editing/admin team in the Issues/Nation Management tech dev thread.

An ic nation makes more sense, for example, with region-related events (like the World Cup issue)

If that level of specificity is required, then we’d just use an npc nation

I think you’re downplaying the applicability of this feature. The example Sarangtus brought up is just a very simple example. So much more is possible

I think that part of the feature should be that if no proper replacement is found, the macro is instead replaced by an npc nation
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Kiddian States
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Postby Kiddian States » Mon May 02, 2022 11:57 am

Candensia wrote:
Luna Amore wrote:Fictional nations can be given characteristics, backstories, consistent motivations. Throwing random regionmates in (even if you tie it to stats) cannot match that. None of the current issues are set up for this and I just don't see it being used.

This is without mentioning how many tiny regions exist that wouldn't work with this system.

Out of the 26k regions currently, something like 17k of them have just one nation in them. Something like 23k have five or less. It either wouldn't work or provide a very repetitive experience for most players.


I really agree here. I don't see such macros being used frequently by writers.

One of the main reasons why NPC nations are useful is that they give the writer creative freedom. You can describe the intentions, goals, history, and culture of NPC nations. You can't do that with player nations, as issues must respect the internal fictions of player nations.

So beyond cursory name-drops, such macros would largely be without purpose.

Again, I’m not trying to replace npc nations
If the characterization of the npc nation is important to the issue or one of its options, then yeah, keep it, by all means. But if the npc nation is unnecessary in the issue/option, then it can be replaced by this macro.

I’m trying to help connect the nation-management side of the game to the regional side of the game, which is a connection I feel is very lacking
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Kiddian States
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Postby Kiddian States » Mon May 02, 2022 1:08 pm

Some applicable issues:

-#29
-#30
-#35
-#36
-#55 (maybe)
-#71

I might add more to this list later
Last edited by Kiddian States on Mon May 02, 2022 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SherpDaWerp
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Postby SherpDaWerp » Mon May 02, 2022 6:22 pm

Kiddian States wrote:Some applicable issues:

How are they applicable?

#29 - which region-mate(s) will be the "ethnic minority", how do you decide that? Which player do you pick and why, and how does this not violate their autonomy?
#30 - meaningless name-drop of "nation with more automobile manufacturing". Note that the issue currently doesn't mention any specific nation.
#35 - which region-mate(s) have had a "bloody conflict", how do you decide that?
#36 - meaningless name-drop of "nation with less money". Again, note that the issue currently doesn't mention any specific nation.
#55 - see point about #29, which region-mate(s) are the "ethnic minority"?
#71 - same as #29 and #55

I'm all for connecting more stuff to the IC world of issues. But this just doesn't work, for reasons explained by myself and two experienced editors. Characterisation and description of NPC nations is crucial to the world of issues, and you just can't fudge that with a regionmate without mangling the autonomy of the player behind the regionmate; not to mention the logistical problems w/r/t low-population regions.

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Kiddian States
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Postby Kiddian States » Tue May 03, 2022 4:07 am

SherpDaWerp wrote:
Kiddian States wrote:Some applicable issues:

How are they applicable?

#29 - which region-mate(s) will be the "ethnic minority", how do you decide that? Which player do you pick and why, and how does this not violate their autonomy?
#30 - meaningless name-drop of "nation with more automobile manufacturing". Note that the issue currently doesn't mention any specific nation.
#35 - which region-mate(s) have had a "bloody conflict", how do you decide that?
#36 - meaningless name-drop of "nation with less money". Again, note that the issue currently doesn't mention any specific nation.
#55 - see point about #29, which region-mate(s) are the "ethnic minority"?
#71 - same as #29 and #55

I'm all for connecting more stuff to the IC world of issues. But this just doesn't work, for reasons explained by myself and two experienced editors. Characterisation and description of NPC nations is crucial to the world of issues, and you just can't fudge that with a regionmate without mangling the autonomy of the player behind the regionmate; not to mention the logistical problems w/r/t low-population regions.

29, 55, and 71 are all about ethnicities. Real world nations have people from all over the world living in them. Which nation these people are from could be selected completely randomly. And, no, this doesn’t really violate player autonomy, as this doesn’t concern their government and these are no longer their citizens.
30, 36. You complain when it’s just a name drop, and you complain when it’s more?
35. I see what you mean. Unless there’s a stat that can help determine this, this might not be applicable.
Low-residency regions are handled by my proposed feature of the macro doesn’t find a suitable replacement.
And please refer to my other posts about the point about npc characteristics.
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Phydios
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Postby Phydios » Tue May 03, 2022 5:19 am

Kiddian States wrote:30, 36. You complain when it’s just a name drop, and you complain when it’s more?

Yes. because this idea doesn't work either way. Either it would add very little to the issue, or it would make assumptions about another player's nation that violate player autonomy.
James 1:26-27, Matthew 7:21-23
If you claim to be religious but don’t control your tongue, you are fooling yourself, and your religion is worthless. Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you. | Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’

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Kiddian States
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Postby Kiddian States » Tue May 03, 2022 6:11 pm

Phydios wrote:
Kiddian States wrote:30, 36. You complain when it’s just a name drop, and you complain when it’s more?

Yes. because this idea doesn't work either way. Either it would add very little to the issue, or it would make assumptions about another player's nation that violate player autonomy.

Issues about ethnicity fall under neither category. It isn’t a “meaningless name drop” and a nations former citizens/descendants of former citizens do not typically act along the lines of that nation’s government.
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SherpDaWerp
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Postby SherpDaWerp » Tue May 03, 2022 6:30 pm

Kiddian States wrote:29, 55, and 71 are all about ethnicities. Real world nations have people from all over the world living in them. Which nation these people are from could be selected completely randomly. And, no, this doesn’t really violate player autonomy, as this doesn’t concern their government and these are no longer their citizens.
What if they don't allow their citizens to leave (no emigration, no tourism)? What about the history of interaction between nations and ethic groups that leads to these tensions? What about even the smallest details - #29 provides examples of behaviour from different ethnicities, so what if that behaviour doesn't fit their idea for what their citizens are like? What if the two nations RP as neighbouring nations with citizens of the same ethnic group?

Kiddian States wrote:30, 36. You complain when it’s just a name drop, and you complain when it’s more?
Yes. Name-drops are pointless, repetitive, and add nothing of substance; non-name-drops violate player autonomy. It's a lose-lose.

Kiddian States wrote:Low-residency regions are handled by my proposed feature of the macro doesn’t find a suitable replacement.
How does the macro know which NPC to pick? They don't have stats. The author(s) and editor(s) would have to make a manual decision on which NPC name to be the "backup" - why not just make that manual decision on which NPC name to use, full stop, rather than using this macro?

Kiddian States wrote:And please refer to my other posts about the point about npc characteristics.
All you've said on this matter is that if NPC characterisation is important, you can use an NPC. I'm saying that NPC characterisation is always important and can literally never be side-stepped except when you do a pointless, repetitive, boring name-drop.

Please, let this idea go. Focus your efforts on another idea for bringing regional gameplay and issues together - make a thread about Regional Issues or Multiplayer Issues (as mentioned in the issues/nation management tech dev thread) where constructive planning for change can happen, instead of arguing about a feature that plainly won't ever work.

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Kiddian States
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Postby Kiddian States » Wed May 04, 2022 11:50 am

In ns, the region a nation is in is the world they are in. Their region mates are the other nations in that world. It just doesn’t make sense for issues (the ic current problems) to just ignore that
That being said, it’s becoming increasingly clear that this idea won’t ever get the support it needs to make it into the game
I regret that I was unable to fix my first point, and make to positive change around here
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