Script: "Reliant" + HTML Script Legality Discussion

[Reventus Koth]

An appeal has also been lodged of the punishments; while those are tricky to handle in situations where rulings have had input from multiple staff members, it's going to be considered.

Well, that's convenient.

The fact that the Predator punishments were discussed by and among all of the various active staff members at the time also makes them particularly unsuited for appeal.

[Haganham]

An appeal has also been lodged of the punishments; while those are tricky to handle in situations where rulings have had input from multiple staff members, it's going to be considered.

Well, that's convenient.

The fact that the Predator punishments were discussed by and among all of the various active staff members at the time also makes them particularly unsuited for appeal.

Predator bans had a bit more behind them then "be decent at the game"

[Refuge Isle]

An appeal has also been lodged of the punishments; while those are tricky to handle in situations where rulings have had input from multiple staff members, it's going to be considered.

Well, that's convenient.

The fact that the Predator punishments were discussed by and among all of the various active staff members at the time also makes them particularly unsuited for appeal.

It's almost like they're two different scripts and circumstances.

[Honeydewistania]

An appeal has also been lodged of the punishments; while those are tricky to handle in situations where rulings have had input from multiple staff members, it's going to be considered.

Well, that's convenient.

The fact that the Predator punishments were discussed by and among all of the various active staff members at the time also makes them particularly unsuited for appeal.

I don't even have an axe potentially looming over my neck

Axe here is a fitting metaphor, given that your only interest in continuing to pursue this is that you and others in your faction have an axe to grind over past misdeeds that many of you still don't accept that were proportionately punished.

Fitting.

[Sedgistan]

An appeal has also been lodged of the punishments; while those are tricky to handle in situations where rulings have had input from multiple staff members, it's going to be considered.

Well, that's convenient.

The fact that the Predator punishments were discussed by and among all of the various active staff members at the time also makes them particularly unsuited for appeal.

You can take from that that discussion on Reliant punishments was by "multiple staff members" but not by "all of the various active staff members". Also, this:

It's almost like they're two different scripts and circumstances.

Reliant is a very different situation to Predator, and is not a "defender equivalent".

[Sweeze]

this is following a trend from a bit earlier in the thread but- i wrote a script that does the same thing as Relendo but written in python and a fair bit faster since it's not beholden to poor language design choices from 25 years ago like javascript is (see previous linked post, specifically "Note that Relendo or any other tool cannot prevent the redirect from going through, as there is no API in XMLHttpRequest for scripts to do so."). while everyone else who was posting and able to match the times that got luca, gk and alt wa banned there's a distinct difference in that people who are cross endorsing completely manually* are not following simultaneity because they don't have to, while people using scripts like reliant that operate off of requests, do.
unlike roavin who afaik is the only one who attempted script-assisted endoing to prove the point, i figured i could bury it 6 feet under and piss on its grave, being that i live in an area that actually has reasonable pageloads to nationstates. using this script that runs off of a single thread (this means it is designed to only run one thing at a time, and restricts anything else from happening while that one thing is happening), i was able to achieve the following:

but dont take it from me. altmoras and luca have much better pageloads than I, so I got a friend of mine who's closer to the NS servers than I to be a bit more representative of the network conditions these players would face.

_{if its horrifying at all to see all of these actions being done so quickly, then i do ask where the concern was nearly a year and a half ago}
do i need to say anything more? it's genuinely insane how of all things, a common occurrence in r/d was the launcher for this that got 3 people banned for an "investigation" that, all due respect, has been completely fumbled and is likely one of the most dangerous rulings from the moderation/admin team to any gameplay metagame on this site since the green light was given on containers blatantly breaking simultaneity.

[Roavin]

I can confirm using Wireshark that Sweeze's tool does not violate simultaneity, and I was able to burst 5 endos per second with it with my connection from Germany.

30/05/2022, 14:09:42 CEST: Kutumal XVI endorsed Holy Jaleaca.
30/05/2022, 14:09:41 CEST: Kutumal XVI endorsed Tokaj.
30/05/2022, 14:09:41 CEST: Kutumal XVI endorsed Turinese Empire.
30/05/2022, 14:09:41 CEST: Kutumal XVI endorsed West Edenvi.
30/05/2022, 14:09:41 CEST: Kutumal XVI endorsed Nonait.
30/05/2022, 14:09:41 CEST: Kutumal XVI endorsed Utel.
30/05/2022, 14:09:40 CEST: Kutumal XVI endorsed Saxville.

6206 35.314886 192.168.2.112 104.25.62.43 HTTP 128 POST /cgi-bin/endorse.cgi HTTP/1.1 (application/x-www-form-urlencoded)
6245 35.549802 104.25.62.43 192.168.2.112 HTTP 81 HTTP/1.1 302 Found (text/html)
6249 35.553478 192.168.2.112 104.25.62.43 HTTP 124 POST /cgi-bin/endorse.cgi HTTP/1.1 (application/x-www-form-urlencoded)
6292 35.780790 104.25.62.43 192.168.2.112 HTTP 81 HTTP/1.1 302 Found (text/html)
6295 35.786161 192.168.2.112 104.25.62.43 HTTP 126 POST /cgi-bin/endorse.cgi HTTP/1.1 (application/x-www-form-urlencoded)
6343 36.048263 104.25.62.43 192.168.2.112 HTTP 81 HTTP/1.1 302 Found (text/html)
6346 36.052235 192.168.2.112 104.25.62.43 HTTP 131 POST /cgi-bin/endorse.cgi HTTP/1.1 (application/x-www-form-urlencoded)
6387 36.277764 104.25.62.43 192.168.2.112 HTTP 81 HTTP/1.1 302 Found (text/html)
6390 36.281552 192.168.2.112 104.25.62.43 HTTP 135 POST /cgi-bin/endorse.cgi HTTP/1.1 (application/x-www-form-urlencoded)
6425 36.494765 104.25.62.43 192.168.2.112 HTTP 81 HTTP/1.1 302 Found (text/html)
6428 36.499080 192.168.2.112 104.25.62.43 HTTP 125 POST /cgi-bin/endorse.cgi HTTP/1.1 (application/x-www-form-urlencoded)
6459 36.718252 104.25.62.43 192.168.2.112 HTTP 81 HTTP/1.1 302 Found (text/html)
6465 36.723505 192.168.2.112 104.25.62.43 HTTP 132 POST /cgi-bin/endorse.cgi HTTP/1.1 (application/x-www-form-urlencoded)
6508 36.945759 104.25.62.43 192.168.2.112 HTTP 81 HTTP/1.1 302 Found (text/html)

[Roavin]

And for good measure, I did the same test with Reliant proper, in this case version 1.3 (which is the latest release). Once again, no simultaneity violations.

Technical details: There were no overlapping sequence numbers, with one (non-violating) exception, which relates to Chromium's redirect handling and not from anything that Reliant sent, so either way it has nothing to do with Reliant. Nonetheless, I analyzed it (just to be extra sure):

Code: Select all

22009   124.523019   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   600   HEADERS[29]: 302 Found, DATA[29]
22010   124.525682   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   89   RST_STREAM[29]
22011   124.527125   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   389   HEADERS[31]: GET /nation=new_lakemba
22012   124.528493   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[29] (text/html)


Frame 22009 didn't contain the entire data payload, and since the browser immediately decided to redirect, it sent a RST_STREAM for 29 and requested the redirect. One frame for 29 still arrives later, since it was already in transit. This is supported by looking at the Chromium source code: In WebResourceRequestSender::OnReceivedRedirect(), if the browser discovers that the redirect is to be followed, it calls through a few intermediate functions and reaches ThrottlingURLLoader::FollowRedirectForcingRestart(), which in turn calls ResetWithReason() on the URL loader, which in turn goes through a whole lot more intermediate functions and virtual calls (seriously, it's alot, browsers are fucking huge) and ... ok, I'll be honest here, I didn't get to the part where it issues the SPDY calls, but I'm just a mortal human and Chromium is about 34 million bloody lines of code so I'm just going to say that my explanation makes sense and at least the front-end part of the Chromium source code supports my explanation above even if I didn't find the latter half that sends the actual RST_STREAM packet <_< — plus I can say with absolute confidence that it's not a Reliant thing.

Happenings:

30/05/2022, 18:15:33 CEST: Kutumal XVI endorsed Joodey.
30/05/2022, 18:15:32 CEST: Kutumal XVI endorsed PlanetPunk.
30/05/2022, 18:15:30 CEST: Kutumal XVI endorsed Unsophisticate.
30/05/2022, 18:15:29 CEST: Kutumal XVI endorsed Yaorozu.
30/05/2022, 18:15:28 CEST: Kutumal XVI endorsed Wooleystan.
30/05/2022, 18:15:28 CEST: Kutumal XVI endorsed Great and Glorious Martese Unionins.
30/05/2022, 18:15:27 CEST: Kutumal XVI endorsed XiOnn.
30/05/2022, 18:15:25 CEST: Kutumal XVI endorsed Alice Gardens.
30/05/2022, 18:15:24 CEST: Kutumal XVI endorsed Lemonbiscuits.
30/05/2022, 18:15:22 CEST: Kutumal XVI endorsed Walter Jackson.
30/05/2022, 18:15:21 CEST: Kutumal XVI endorsed New Lakemba.
30/05/2022, 18:15:20 CEST: Kutumal XVI endorsed Malta Comino Gozo.
30/05/2022, 18:15:19 CEST: Kutumal XVI endorsed Cloydicia.
30/05/2022, 18:15:18 CEST: Kutumal XVI endorsed Panama Coalition.
30/05/2022, 18:15:07 CEST: Kutumal XVI endorsed Pallaith.

Wireshark:

Code: Select all

21239   76.538164   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   970   HEADERS[7]: GET /nation=pallaith
21240   76.538199   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   93   PING[0]
21244   76.551318   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   93   PING[0]
21268   77.089089   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   803   HEADERS[7]: 200 OK, DATA[7]
21270   77.089549   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   902   DATA[7]
21272   77.092012   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   89   WINDOW_UPDATE[0]
21273   77.100881   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1229   DATA[7]
21283   77.621321   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1214   DATA[7]
21289   77.787071   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1436   DATA[7]
21294   77.787560   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1338   DATA[7]
21303   77.790049   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1141   DATA[7]
21314   77.985338   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1323   DATA[7], DATA[7]
21315   77.985338   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[7] (text/html)
21534   103.939356   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   1082   HEADERS[9]: GET /nation=pallaith
21535   103.939405   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   93   PING[0]
21541   103.953040   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   93   PING[0]
21567   104.516638   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   295   HEADERS[9]: 200 OK, DATA[9]
21569   104.519389   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   89   WINDOW_UPDATE[0]
21570   104.529594   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1227   DATA[9]
21579   105.266648   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1339   DATA[9]
21584   105.267294   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1345   DATA[9]
21588   105.434568   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1435   DATA[9]
21593   105.435280   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1337   DATA[9]
21602   105.436708   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1144   DATA[9]
21613   105.616025   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1325   DATA[9], DATA[9]
21614   105.616025   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[9] (text/html)
21683   109.754247   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   1149   HEADERS[11]: POST /cgi-bin/endorse.cgi
21684   109.754322   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   137   DATA[11] (application/x-www-form-urlencoded)
21716   110.336932   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   641   HEADERS[11]: 302 Found, DATA[11]
21717   110.337196   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[11] (text/html)
21719   110.339293   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   89   WINDOW_UPDATE[0]
21720   110.342275   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   260   HEADERS[13]: GET /nation=pallaith
21744   110.546979   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   808   HEADERS[13]: 200 OK, DATA[13]
21745   110.547566   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1094   DATA[13]
21747   110.549661   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1254   DATA[13]
21748   110.552616   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   209   DATA[13]
21750   110.566909   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1225   DATA[13]
21762   111.073873   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1194   DATA[13]
21781   111.253615   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   762   DATA[13], DATA[13]
21794   111.413109   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1327   DATA[13], DATA[13]
21795   111.413109   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[13] (text/html)
21836   116.398230   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   299   HEADERS[15]: GET /cgi-bin/api.cgi/nation=pallaith/q=endorsements/script=reliant_1.3/userclick=1653927310936
21849   117.624432   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   995   HEADERS[15]: 200 OK, DATA[15]
21850   117.624432   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2/XML   85   DATA[15]
21852   117.626666   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   89   WINDOW_UPDATE[0]
21867   120.407932   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   825   HEADERS[17]: POST /cgi-bin/endorse.cgi/script=reliant_1.3/userclick=1653927314941
21868   120.407977   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   445   DATA[17]
21875   120.975353   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   627   HEADERS[17]: 302 Found, DATA[17]
21876   120.975353   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[17] (text/html)
21878   120.980274   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   255   HEADERS[19]: GET /nation=panama_coalition
21883   121.189099   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   325   HEADERS[19]: 200 OK, DATA[19]
21885   121.198849   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1065   DATA[19]
21895   121.638572   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1290   DATA[19], DATA[19]
21902   121.812146   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1058   DATA[19]
21903   121.812146   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   583   DATA[19]
21904   121.812146   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   86   DATA[19]
21905   121.812146   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[19] (text/html)
21907   121.985068   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   360   HEADERS[21]: POST /cgi-bin/endorse.cgi/script=reliant_1.3/userclick=1653927316521
21908   121.985104   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   438   DATA[21]
21914   122.214320   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   620   HEADERS[21]: 302 Found, DATA[21]
21915   122.214320   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[21] (text/html)
21917   122.218574   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   131   HEADERS[23]: GET /nation=cloydicia
21920   122.430624   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   804   HEADERS[23]: 200 OK, DATA[23]
21921   122.430908   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1086   DATA[23]
21923   122.434860   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1371   DATA[23]
21924   122.444810   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   999   DATA[23]
21933   122.912788   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1242   DATA[23], DATA[23]
21935   122.914461   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   89   WINDOW_UPDATE[0]
21943   123.075788   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1069   DATA[23]
21945   123.076286   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   821   DATA[23]
21946   123.076286   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   86   DATA[23]
21947   123.076286   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[23] (text/html)
21951   123.189784   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   826   HEADERS[25]: POST /cgi-bin/endorse.cgi/script=reliant_1.3/userclick=1653927317725
21952   123.189827   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   446   DATA[25]
21956   123.434346   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   658   HEADERS[25]: 302 Found, DATA[25]
21957   123.434346   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[25] (text/html)
21959   123.438927   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   393   HEADERS[27]: GET /nation=malta_comino_gozo
21969   123.653774   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   350   HEADERS[27]: 200 OK, DATA[27]
21973   123.667014   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1024   DATA[27]
21984   124.011257   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1257   DATA[27], DATA[27]
21993   124.183510   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1238   DATA[27], DATA[27]
21997   124.183768   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   535   DATA[27]
21998   124.183768   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   86   DATA[27]
21999   124.183768   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[27] (text/html)
22004   124.281095   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   825   HEADERS[29]: POST /cgi-bin/endorse.cgi/script=reliant_1.3/userclick=1653927318817
22005   124.281156   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   440   DATA[29]
22009   124.523019   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   600   HEADERS[29]: 302 Found, DATA[29]
22010   124.525682   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   89   RST_STREAM[29]
22011   124.527125   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   389   HEADERS[31]: GET /nation=new_lakemba
22012   124.528493   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[29] (text/html)
22018   124.736333   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   638   HEADERS[31]: 200 OK, DATA[31]
22020   124.736870   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1374   DATA[31]
22021   124.762528   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1002   DATA[31]
22031   125.138223   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1166   DATA[31]
22044   125.304000   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1236   DATA[31], DATA[31]
22052   125.305984   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1321   DATA[31], DATA[31]
22053   125.305984   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[31] (text/html)
22056   125.364314   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   826   HEADERS[33]: POST /cgi-bin/endorse.cgi/script=reliant_1.3/userclick=1653927319899
22057   125.364360   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   443   DATA[33]
22062   125.581774   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   606   HEADERS[33]: 302 Found, DATA[33]
22063   125.581774   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[33] (text/html)
22065   125.585867   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   391   HEADERS[35]: GET /nation=walter_jackson
22067   125.790492   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   845   HEADERS[35]: 200 OK, DATA[35]
22068   125.790492   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   138   DATA[35]
22070   125.791461   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1096   DATA[35]
22071   125.793472   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1264   DATA[35]
22072   125.793472   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   207   DATA[35]
22074   125.809475   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1009   DATA[35]
22083   126.113449   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1298   DATA[35], DATA[35]
22092   126.281440   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   814   DATA[35]
22093   126.281440   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   841   DATA[35]
22094   126.281440   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   117   DATA[35] (text/html)
22097   126.531946   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   825   HEADERS[37]: POST /cgi-bin/endorse.cgi/script=reliant_1.3/userclick=1653927321068
22098   126.531986   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   442   DATA[37]
22102   126.753969   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   626   HEADERS[37]: 302 Found, DATA[37]
22103   126.753969   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[37] (text/html)
22105   126.758267   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   390   HEADERS[39]: GET /nation=lemonbiscuits
22107   126.978980   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   779   HEADERS[39]: 200 OK, DATA[39]
22108   126.978980   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   138   DATA[39]
22109   126.978980   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1091   DATA[39]
22111   126.979270   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1253   DATA[39]
22112   126.979270   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   210   DATA[39]
22113   126.979270   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   978   DATA[39]
22123   127.278170   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1248   DATA[39], DATA[39]
22128   127.448479   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1361   DATA[39]
22132   127.448667   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   295   DATA[39]
22134   127.449178   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[39] (text/html)
22137   127.589846   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   825   HEADERS[41]: POST /cgi-bin/endorse.cgi/script=reliant_1.3/userclick=1653927322125
22138   127.589884   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   442   DATA[41]
22142   127.839461   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   657   HEADERS[41]: 302 Found, DATA[41]
22143   127.839461   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[41] (text/html)
22145   127.843476   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   390   HEADERS[43]: GET /nation=alice_gardens
22147   128.046183   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   821   HEADERS[43]: 200 OK, DATA[43]
22148   128.046183   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1088   DATA[43]
22150   128.048508   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   89   WINDOW_UPDATE[0]
22151   128.048920   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1376   DATA[43]
22153   128.062672   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   995   DATA[43]
22168   128.420175   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1283   DATA[43], DATA[43]
22178   128.591129   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   151   DATA[43], DATA[43]
22179   128.591129   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[43] (text/html)
22188   129.674798   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   825   HEADERS[45]: POST /cgi-bin/endorse.cgi/script=reliant_1.3/userclick=1653927324209
22189   129.674839   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   434   DATA[45]
22193   130.018884   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   614   HEADERS[45]: 302 Found, DATA[45]
22194   130.018884   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[45] (text/html)
22196   130.022828   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   385   HEADERS[47]: GET /nation=xionn
22200   130.226585   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   998   HEADERS[47]: 200 OK, DATA[47]
22201   130.226585   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   138   DATA[47]
22202   130.226585   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1092   DATA[47]
22204   130.229353   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1255   DATA[47]
22205   130.229353   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   208   DATA[47]
22207   130.241880   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1054   DATA[47]
22221   130.504835   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1135   DATA[47], DATA[47]
22225   130.671591   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1060   DATA[47]
22226   130.671591   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[47] (text/html)
22230   130.740609   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   825   HEADERS[49]: POST /cgi-bin/endorse.cgi/script=reliant_1.3/userclick=1653927325275
22231   130.740654   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   464   DATA[49]
22239   130.991571   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   663   HEADERS[49]: 302 Found, DATA[49]
22240   130.991571   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[49] (text/html)
22242   130.995100   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   405   HEADERS[51]: GET /nation=great_and_glorious_martese_unionins
22247   131.195811   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   883   HEADERS[51]: 200 OK, DATA[51]
22248   131.196198   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1097   DATA[51]
22250   131.199848   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1362   DATA[51]
22251   131.209581   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1044   DATA[51]
22269   131.494049   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   492   DATA[51], DATA[51]
22270   131.494049   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   363   DATA[51]
22271   131.494049   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   848   DATA[51]
22272   131.494049   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[51] (text/html)
22275   131.503829   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   825   HEADERS[53]: POST /cgi-bin/endorse.cgi/script=reliant_1.3/userclick=1653927326041
22276   131.503867   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   439   DATA[53]
22281   131.731061   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   622   HEADERS[53]: 302 Found, DATA[53]
22282   131.731061   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[53] (text/html)
22284   131.735092   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   388   HEADERS[55]: GET /nation=wooleystan
22286   131.933804   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   830   HEADERS[55]: 200 OK, DATA[55]
22287   131.938051   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1088   DATA[55]
22289   131.938285   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1261   DATA[55]
22290   131.938285   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   211   DATA[55]
22292   131.945790   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   981   DATA[55]
22311   132.239783   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   445   DATA[55], DATA[55]
22315   132.403066   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1130   DATA[55]
22316   132.403066   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[55] (text/html)
22319   132.469447   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   825   HEADERS[57]: POST /cgi-bin/endorse.cgi/script=reliant_1.3/userclick=1653927327005
22320   132.469485   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   436   DATA[57]
22324   132.692301   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   638   HEADERS[57]: 302 Found, DATA[57]
22325   132.692301   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[57] (text/html)
22327   132.696434   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   386   HEADERS[59]: GET /nation=yaorozu
22329   132.904021   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   785   HEADERS[59]: 200 OK, DATA[59]
22330   132.904021   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1145   DATA[59]
22332   132.919781   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1377   DATA[59]
22333   132.924515   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1104   DATA[59]
22347   133.290743   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1168   DATA[59]
22349   133.292136   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   89   WINDOW_UPDATE[0]
22355   133.457781   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1463   DATA[59]
22360   133.458737   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1329   DATA[59]
22369   133.460221   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   826   DATA[59]
22370   133.460221   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[59] (text/html)
22373   133.504990   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   825   HEADERS[61]: POST /cgi-bin/endorse.cgi/script=reliant_1.3/userclick=1653927328041
22374   133.505035   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   443   DATA[61]
22378   133.732553   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   624   HEADERS[61]: 302 Found, DATA[61]
22379   133.732553   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[61] (text/html)
22381   133.737084   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   390   HEADERS[63]: GET /nation=unsophisticate
22384   133.954271   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   638   HEADERS[63]: 200 OK, DATA[63]
22386   133.955863   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1253   DATA[63]
22387   133.957726   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   208   DATA[63]
22389   133.974012   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1007   DATA[63]
22406   134.305477   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1260   DATA[63], DATA[63]
22422   134.480222   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   427   DATA[63], DATA[63]
22423   134.480222   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1151   DATA[63]
22424   134.480222   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   86   DATA[63]
22425   134.480222   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[63] (text/html)
22431   134.549575   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   825   HEADERS[65]: POST /cgi-bin/endorse.cgi/script=reliant_1.3/userclick=1653927329085
22432   134.549614   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   439   DATA[65]
22436   134.782500   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   620   HEADERS[65]: 302 Found, DATA[65]
22437   134.782500   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[65] (text/html)
22439   134.787672   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   388   HEADERS[67]: GET /nation=planetpunk
22442   135.004261   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   412   HEADERS[67]: 200 OK, DATA[67]
22444   135.007747   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1355   DATA[67]
22445   135.027210   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   988   DATA[67]
22455   135.332690   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1315   DATA[67], DATA[67]
22460   135.498187   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1377   DATA[67]
22465   135.498688   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   563   DATA[67]
22466   135.498688   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[67] (text/html)
22469   135.585032   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   825   HEADERS[69]: POST /cgi-bin/endorse.cgi/script=reliant_1.3/userclick=1653927330120
22470   135.585092   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   435   DATA[69]
22474   135.799705   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   622   HEADERS[69]: 302 Found, DATA[69]
22475   135.799705   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[69] (text/html)
22477   135.803748   192.168.2.112   104.25.61.43   HTTP2   385   HEADERS[71]: GET /nation=joodey
22480   136.008459   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   396   HEADERS[71]: 200 OK, DATA[71]
22482   136.011675   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1261   DATA[71]
22483   136.011675   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   211   DATA[71]
22485   136.015189   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1019   DATA[71]
22505   136.369660   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1259   DATA[71], DATA[71]
22515   136.540920   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   452   DATA[71], DATA[71]
22517   136.541133   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1011   DATA[71]
22518   136.541133   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   86   DATA[71]
22519   136.541133   104.25.61.43   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[71] (text/html)


[Roavin]

With the endorsement issue out of the way, today I want to tackle chase moves with Reliant. TL;DR: No simultaneity violations here either.

This was observed with both requests to move region and to endorse nations - I don't think I need to explain the in-game benefit of carrying those out quicker?

As I mentioned here, I'm not entirely sure what is meant by that, since moving regions is an operation that resets the localId and therefore NationStates site mechanics make it physically impossible to move at the same time as some other restricted action (another endo etc.). Still, though, for good measure, I just traced myself following a fellow defender into a few regions using Wireshark once more.

The full Wireshark dump is gigantic due to my constant refreshes, and would completely blow up the forum post size limit if I were to post it. So instead, I'm posting the relevant parts; I can make the full Wireshark capture file available upon request (to NS staff, not public, since the full capture file semi-doxxes me ). The parts should be representative, though - no sequence number overlaps.

Happenings:

31/05/2022, 21:40:35 CEST: Curious Observations relocated from The Order of the Grey Wardens to Spear Danes.
31/05/2022, 21:40:34 CEST: Quebecshire relocated from The Order of the Grey Wardens to Spear Danes.
31/05/2022, 21:40:23 CEST: Quebecshire lodged a message on the The Order of the Grey Wardens Regional Message Board.
31/05/2022, 21:40:08 CEST: Curious Observations relocated from The South Pacific to The Order of the Grey Wardens.
31/05/2022, 21:40:07 CEST: Quebecshire relocated from The South Pacific to The Order of the Grey Wardens.
31/05/2022, 21:39:41 CEST: Curious Observations relocated from Fukuoka to The South Pacific.
31/05/2022, 21:39:40 CEST: Quebecshire relocated from Fukuoka to The South Pacific.
31/05/2022, 21:39:10 CEST: Curious Observations relocated from Artificial Solar System to Fukuoka.
31/05/2022, 21:39:10 CEST: Quebecshire relocated from Artificial Solar System to Fukuoka.

Most of the Wireshark log is just repeatedly refreshing reports, which looks like this:

Code: Select all

4497   298.664219   192.168.2.112   172.67.64.228   HTTP2   173   HEADERS[299]: GET /template-overall=none/page=reports/script=reliant_1.3/userclick=1654025944271
4505   298.895800   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   509   HEADERS[299]: 200 OK, DATA[299]
4506   298.895800   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[299] (text/html)
4508   298.917091   192.168.2.112   172.67.64.228   HTTP2   173   HEADERS[301]: GET /template-overall=none/page=reports/script=reliant_1.3/userclick=1654025944524
4511   299.150285   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   517   HEADERS[301]: 200 OK, DATA[301]
4512   299.150285   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[301] (text/html)
4514   299.272053   192.168.2.112   172.67.64.228   HTTP2   173   HEADERS[303]: GET /template-overall=none/page=reports/script=reliant_1.3/userclick=1654025944879
4517   299.517280   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   526   HEADERS[303]: 200 OK, DATA[303]
4518   299.517280   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[303] (text/html)
4520   299.624724   192.168.2.112   172.67.64.228   HTTP2   173   HEADERS[305]: GET /template-overall=none/page=reports/script=reliant_1.3/userclick=1654025945231
4525   299.852786   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   655   HEADERS[305]: 200 OK, DATA[305]
4526   299.852786   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[305] (text/html)
4528   299.881910   192.168.2.112   172.67.64.228   HTTP2   173   HEADERS[307]: GET /template-overall=none/page=reports/script=reliant_1.3/userclick=1654025945488
4534   300.144518   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   480   HEADERS[307]: 200 OK, DATA[307]
4535   300.144518   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[307] (text/html)
4537   300.232263   192.168.2.112   172.67.64.228   HTTP2   173   HEADERS[309]: GET /template-overall=none/page=reports/script=reliant_1.3/userclick=1654025945839
4542   300.455250   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   527   HEADERS[309]: 200 OK, DATA[309]
4543   300.455250   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[309] (text/html)
4545   300.560598   192.168.2.112   172.67.64.228   HTTP2   173   HEADERS[311]: GET /template-overall=none/page=reports/script=reliant_1.3/userclick=1654025946167
4552   300.787005   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   494   HEADERS[311]: 200 OK, DATA[311]
4553   300.787005   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[311] (text/html)
4557   300.905358   192.168.2.112   172.67.64.228   HTTP2   173   HEADERS[313]: GET /template-overall=none/page=reports/script=reliant_1.3/userclick=1654025946512
4563   301.141987   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   477   HEADERS[313]: 200 OK, DATA[313]
4564   301.141987   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[313] (text/html)
4566   301.164733   192.168.2.112   172.67.64.228   HTTP2   173   HEADERS[315]: GET /template-overall=none/page=reports/script=reliant_1.3/userclick=1654025946772
4569   301.392233   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   505   HEADERS[315]: 200 OK, DATA[315]
4570   301.392233   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[315] (text/html)


This is the move from Fukuoka to TSP. A few things happen here, each of which is a click (or technically, a button press) from me, and represents a standard usage pattern for Reliant during high-speed chases:

• I'm spam-refreshing the reports-page (through Reliant), and at some point I see that Quebec moved
• I move
• I update the local ID (this is the rwby-region call, which is a reliable way of extracting a valid local ID, and is a keybound action in Reliant)
• I return to spam-refreshing

Code: Select all

5389   334.511973   192.168.2.112   172.67.64.228   HTTP2   173   HEADERS[507]: GET /template-overall=none/page=reports/script=reliant_1.3/userclick=1654025980119
5392   334.733793   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   192   HEADERS[507]: 200 OK, DATA[507]
5393   334.733793   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[507] (text/html)
5395   334.783124   192.168.2.112   172.67.64.228   HTTP2   173   HEADERS[509]: GET /template-overall=none/page=reports/script=reliant_1.3/userclick=1654025980391
5401   335.019275   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   338   HEADERS[509]: 200 OK, DATA[509]
5402   335.019275   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[509] (text/html)
5404   335.063633   192.168.2.112   172.67.64.228   HTTP2   173   HEADERS[511]: GET /template-overall=none/page=reports/script=reliant_1.3/userclick=1654025980671
5409   335.294278   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   204   HEADERS[511]: 200 OK, DATA[511]
5410   335.294278   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[511] (text/html)
5412   335.360409   192.168.2.112   172.67.64.228   HTTP2   222   HEADERS[513]: POST /page=change_region/script=reliant_1.3/userclick=1654025980967
5413   335.360475   192.168.2.112   172.67.64.228   HTTP2   450   DATA[513]
5416   335.581250   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   831   HEADERS[513]: 200 OK, DATA[513]
5417   335.581250   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1060   DATA[513]
5419   335.581489   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1209   DATA[513]
5420   335.581489   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   202   DATA[513]
5422   335.583476   192.168.2.112   172.67.64.228   HTTP2   89   WINDOW_UPDATE[0]
5424   335.672506   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   889   DATA[513]
5425   335.672506   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[513] (text/html)
5427   335.793066   192.168.2.112   172.67.64.228   HTTP2   355   HEADERS[515]: GET /region=rwby/script=reliant_1.3/userclick=1654025981400
5431   336.000512   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   799   HEADERS[515]: 200 OK, DATA[515]
5433   336.011754   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   905   DATA[515]
5437   336.056230   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   1156   DATA[515]
5439   336.174249   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   86   DATA[515]
5440   336.174451   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[515] (text/html)
5443   336.223507   192.168.2.112   172.67.64.228   HTTP2   173   HEADERS[517]: GET /template-overall=none/page=reports/script=reliant_1.3/userclick=1654025981831
5447   336.437752   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   539   HEADERS[517]: 200 OK, DATA[517]
5448   336.437752   172.67.64.228   192.168.2.112   HTTP2   85   DATA[517] (text/html)


[Roavin]

Oh, since I forgot to mention it previously - of course, I am more than happy to demonstrate all of this live via screenshare, including Wireshark traces, source code, demonstration, commentary, and whatever else, to any and all interested members of NS staff. Just poke me offsite - Roavin#5410 on Discord.

(and sorry for the now, uh, quadruple post, but I didn't want to edit this into the previous post in case it gets inadvertently buried by the wall of technical info)

[Quebecshire]

Given that it’s been a few days since the punishments were handed out, and with subsequent evidence being posted by Roavin, is there anything staff can tell us? I understand there’s probably a lot to work on behind the scenes, but given that three people are actively serving extant punishments for something that has not be concretely proven to players to have been illegal, it’s much more urgent now. I hope that’s being recognized as we in turn recognize the burden on staff.

A more general note: I know Sedge said earlier that updates will come when there are updates to give, and that said comment earned a bit of criticism. I think it would genuinely improve staff-player dialogue (on this and in general) if communication was more constant. As in, not everything staff says has to be a huge update. Even telling us that things are happening (such as review, or that admin does or does not intend to comment on Roavin’s findings) without a conclusive update could go a long way in the meantime.

[Crazy girl]

Normally we wouldn't handle an appeal sent via GHR this publicly, but considering the situation, felt it was appropriate.

The appeal has been granted.

I understand this situation has caused a lot of frustration and uncertainty with many of you, and I want to offer our unreserved apologies for it.

Please believe me when I say it has been a frustrating time for us as well, none of the moderators who have tried dealing with this case are coders (and honestly, with the above posts you might as well have posted one of Max's books in binary and it would have made just as much sense to most of us). We really needed admin involvement in this, but unfortunately due to circumstances we had very little, which simply wasn't enough.

Due to pressure and mounting frustrations we tried to come up with a solution, knowing it wouln't make anyone happy, defenders or raiders alike. We reviewed what did have, the ones we felt admin had definitely identified as rule breakers, and handed out punishments as fairly as we thought we could.

Your questions, understandable as they are, are simply not ones us moderators can answer. We have requested an admin to please comment in this thread, and hoping they will to shed some light on the situation, as many of the moderators who have been dealing with this situation behind the scenes have been feeling completely out of their depth.

After the appeal was submitted, we went through all we did have, along with taking into consideration what little we did glean from the evidence submitted here, and found there was reasonable doubt in our previous assertions, enough to make us reconsider these punishments. (yes, Sedge too)

Is reliant illegal? We don't know, we are not coders.
Have the above 3 broken the rules? We don't know, we no longer feel we can confidently say so.

So how to move on? We are, behind the scenes, throwing ideas around, including strongly considering banning scripts from the html site completely as at present the rules are simply not enforceable without intensive admin time, which is a luxury we do not at present possess.

If others have ideas, I'd be delighted to hear.

Again, we do apologise for how this situation has turned out, it was not what any of us had hoped for, not players, not moderators.

[Durm]

banning scripts from the html site completely

Would that include ad blockers too? Banning those would make many players quit.

[Grea Kriopia]

Deepest appreciation for the timely response to our appeal and transparency with players regarding how the punishment was concluded. I don't doubt for a minute this has made you all as miserable as it has made us, so the honesty and apology mean a great deal––thank you!

[Wymondham]

Imma refrain from commenting on the granting of the appeals beyond expressing gratitude to the mod team for looking again in the face of new evidence, as that ain't my ball game. But, I want to express concern about the notion that the solution to the issues experienced over the course of this investigation is to ban HTML scripts. To do so would be to throw the baby out with the bathwater and to cut off ones nose to spite ones face. The solution to a lack of admin availability should not be to take a sledgehammer to something which is an integral part of cards and R/G gameplay, the solution is to get more admins that are available, or to bring individuals with technical know how onto the mod team so that y'all feel better equipped to deal with such issues. If your roof starts leaking you don't tear down the whole house, you call someone in and get the tiles refitted.

[Hulldom]

And I’ll jump in and I guess ask the question people might be wondering about: how would admin go about an HTML script ban or even enforcing one?

I’m not a coder either and I’ll hazard a good guess and say this is not a flip of the switch thing that can be spotted by an untrained eye.

[Gleemands]

It has come to our attention that the script identifying as "Reliant" is violating site rules. Those who have been using the script should stop doing so immediately, and contact us via Getting Help Request to confirm they have stopped using it, and to detail their previous usage of it.

We are additionally requesting that the script author(s) contact us via Getting Help Request to detail the workings of the script, and with a copy of its code.

o que ele faz?

[Sedgistan]

banning scripts from the html site completely

Would that include ad blockers too? Banning those would make many players quit.

Ad blockers aren't going to be banned. If/when scripts are banned from the html site, there would be admin-led discussion with players first in Technical, to clarify details, and work out what can be done to improve the API to mitigate the impact as best possible; also I'd expect a grace period as well.

I know we've raised the prospect of banning scripts from the html site a couple of times here, but it's not the best place to discuss it. When admin feels ready to move ahead with it, there'll be the chance to discuss it in a dedicated thread then.

[Sedgistan]

Imma refrain from commenting on the granting of the appeals beyond expressing gratitude to the mod team for looking again in the face of new evidence, as that ain't my ball game. But, I want to express concern about the notion that the solution to the issues experienced over the course of this investigation is to ban HTML scripts. To do so would be to throw the baby out with the bathwater and to cut off ones nose to spite ones face. The solution to a lack of admin availability should not be to take a sledgehammer to something which is an integral part of cards and R/G gameplay, the solution is to get more admins that are available, or to bring individuals with technical know how onto the mod team so that y'all feel better equipped to deal with such issues. If your roof starts leaking you don't tear down the whole house, you call someone in and get the tiles refitted.

When the dust has settled from all this, I intend to push for something along the lines of what I outlined here in the "More Admins" thread to get more technical experience onto the staff team.

[Roavin]

So how to move on? We are, behind the scenes, throwing ideas around, including strongly considering banning scripts from the html site completely as at present the rules are simply not enforceable without intensive admin time, which is a luxury we do not at present possess.

If others have ideas, I'd be delighted to hear.

With Reliant specifically, I think I've prepared everything so much that Elu, upon his return, should be able to look at it for 15-20 minutes and either sign off on it or tell me what I was missing (in which case I'd gladly do whatever other legwork is necessary). I think given how long this has gone on, and the current resolution, it's perfectly fine to wait however long that takes.

For the future, I would suggest getting 1 or 2 tech modlings in from the community that deal with that aspect. Most things should be simple to deal with, and things looking at source code to see if there are simultaneity violations can be done by somebody of "lesser" status without full server status and doesn't have to be performed by Elu/[v]/Ballo/whoever else.

[Venico]

I look forward to and will continue to advocate for the banning of scripts.

[Refuge Isle]

Normally we wouldn't handle an appeal sent via GHR this publicly, but considering the situation, felt it was appropriate.

The appeal has been granted.

I understand this situation has caused a lot of frustration and uncertainty with many of you, and I want to offer our unreserved apologies for it.

Please believe me when I say it has been a frustrating time for us as well, none of the moderators who have tried dealing with this case are coders (and honestly, with the above posts you might as well have posted one of Max's books in binary and it would have made just as much sense to most of us). We really needed admin involvement in this, but unfortunately due to circumstances we had very little, which simply wasn't enough.

Due to pressure and mounting frustrations we tried to come up with a solution, knowing it wouln't make anyone happy, defenders or raiders alike. We reviewed what did have, the ones we felt admin had definitely identified as rule breakers, and handed out punishments as fairly as we thought we could.

Your questions, understandable as they are, are simply not ones us moderators can answer. We have requested an admin to please comment in this thread, and hoping they will to shed some light on the situation, as many of the moderators who have been dealing with this situation behind the scenes have been feeling completely out of their depth.

After the appeal was submitted, we went through all we did have, along with taking into consideration what little we did glean from the evidence submitted here, and found there was reasonable doubt in our previous assertions, enough to make us reconsider these punishments. (yes, Sedge too)

Is reliant illegal? We don't know, we are not coders.
Have the above 3 broken the rules? We don't know, we no longer feel we can confidently say so.

So how to move on? We are, behind the scenes, throwing ideas around, including strongly considering banning scripts from the html site completely as at present the rules are simply not enforceable without intensive admin time, which is a luxury we do not at present possess.

If others have ideas, I'd be delighted to hear.

Again, we do apologise for how this situation has turned out, it was not what any of us had hoped for, not players, not moderators.

I can't say that quitting the site wasn't on my mind when even following the rules did not appear to be enough to avoid retribution. So I appreciate the apology as much as I appreciate the reversal of the bans, and I mean that quite a lot. I empathise with the frustration of working with material that is hard to understand, especially when it eclipses the job that you agreed to and makes interpreting policy much more difficult.

The rest of the post, which addresses a potential ban on html scripts, is still concerning. It appears to my eyes to be another attempt to find a solution to a problem that is no real solution to all. For the problem in this case is not actually related to script usage on NationState, but admin's absence and inaccessibility.

As much as it pains me to say, Glen said it best:

"the Scripting Era of NS has always been a direct response to poor game design and outdated UI features."

And, indeed, although Reliant itself is something that has been used to augment its operators' speed, it's primary attribute for myself is accessibility. Like, W&S said earlier in the thread, it allows me to be highly competitive in chasing even though my physical vision is very poor. Information accessibility and making native features easier to use are the primary focus of script development on the site. A variety of scripts on NationStates have been pushed by admin this year to be curtailed, when less controversial and more amiable possibilities exist.

These possibilities include, for example, adjusting the card generation system to not need scripts and, instead, operate by single nation systems that could also cut down on rampant puppet creation. It includes improvements to the recruitment system that improve retention and give players alternatives to nation acquisition, which do not rely exclusively on telegram systems that have to be operated around the clock. Admin's policy must be to redirect activity instead of axing it completely. Where the cards and military gameplay communities have brought so much activity, vibrancy, and in many cases revenue to the site. Hard script bans, without counterbalancing development, disproportionately affect these users and their respective primary content-creators, especially.

We need to be nurturing that hard-earned (and hard to re-earn) growth to accommodate a larger player base with more modern expectations. There is already a variety of long-standing projects such as making a new forum, developing frontiers and strongholds, which will never get done or worked on without more admin time. To be clear, in the state of a absent administration, bans on player-sourced development are unwise when it is the only development we have access to -- where we can contribute to production, regardless of admin's inactivity.

The only real solution that NationStates will ever reach, not only in regards to script analysis and investigation in the future, but also in terms of the site's own development and continuity, is for admin to perpetuate itself. Inactive admin slots need to be filled so that development for this community can resume before it causes further damage. With such a wide variety of technically capable people around NationStates, there really is no reason this cannot be done other than the existing procedures are not occurring or are insufficient.

But without question, a blanket html-script ban would be a devastating blow to the user base that does not address the root of the issue and causes vast collateral damage to everyone else.

[Custadia]

It has come to our attention that the script identifying as "Reliant" is violating site rules. Those who have been using the script should stop doing so immediately, and contact us via Getting Help Request to confirm they have stopped using it, and to detail their previous usage of it.

We are additionally requesting that the script author(s) contact us via Getting Help Request to detail the workings of the script, and with a copy of its code.

• Altmoras - *** 3 month WA ban ***
• Lucabaduka - *** 3 month WA ban ***
• Grea Kriopia - *** 3 month WA ban ***

The appeal has been granted.

Please believe me when I say it has been a frustrating time for us as well, none of the moderators who have tried dealing with this case are coders (and honestly, with the above posts you might as well have posted one of Max's books in binary and it would have made just as much sense to most of us). We really needed admin involvement in this, but unfortunately due to circumstances we had very little, which simply wasn't enough.

We reviewed what did have, the ones we felt admin had definitely identified as rule breakers

Your questions, understandable as they are, are simply not ones us moderators can answer. We have requested an admin to please comment in this thread, and hoping they will to shed some light on the situation, as many of the moderators who have been dealing with this situation behind the scenes have been feeling completely out of their depth.

Is reliant illegal? We don't know, we are not coders.

Congratulations to those implicated for the successful appeal.

With regards to the site staff: though you have apologised for this, it remains concerning that you not only made a post stating categorically that this script was illegal but actually enacted WA bans in these circumstances. Not only did you not have the expertise to make that call, you have admitted that you knew that at the time. You slandered these players and punished them in spite of feeling out of your depth. That was extremely irresponsible.

The price for your failure here should not be that GP as a whole is punished by having its toys taken away. It is not us who were at fault, it was you.

[Sedgistan]

Though you have apologised for it, it remains concerning that the site staff not only made a post stating categorically that this script was illegal

On the prompting of admin, who does have the expertise to make that call.

[Custadia]

Though you have apologised for it, it remains concerning that the site staff not only made a post stating categorically that this script was illegal

On the prompting of admin, who does have the expertise to make that call.

Have admin since rescinded that judgment? Your own repeal post states that you have no confidence in it. Can Reliant now be used without fear of future repercussions?