Change to Script Rules for HTML Site

[[violet]]

If you were to say "Yes, auto-generated URLs will go away at the same time as when we fix other aspects of recruitment", that would be far more palatable. Then, our recruiters can rest easy that they will still have good results for objectively more work.[...] I cannot imagine the issues the proposed change would cause without the balancing features implemented.

We're open to this, although we do need to do something about the current situation in a timely manner. Can you specify the balance changes you'd like implemented at the same time?

[United Calanworie]

If you were to say "Yes, auto-generated URLs will go away at the same time as when we fix other aspects of recruitment", that would be far more palatable. Then, our recruiters can rest easy that they will still have good results for objectively more work.[...] I cannot imagine the issues the proposed change would cause without the balancing features implemented.

We're open to this, although we do need to do something about the current situation in a timely manner. Can you specify the balance changes you'd like implemented at the same time?

While I'm not NJ, I think these are virtually universally wanted balance changes:

1) Increase of stamp cost. It should at least rise to be priced with inflation at a bare minimum, and realistically should get another dollar or so tacked onto the price. Stamps should actually be something that a region is concerned about having access to, not just "eh, I'll tag:WA again and see what it gets me."

2) A decrease in the API rate limit, and/or, as Flanderlion said, allowing us to spend stamps to remove the rate limit so that we can benefit from the API targeting while having the speed of stamps.

And one from me:
3) Some form of QOL improvement to manual so that it isn't so painful. I recognize that there should be some downside to manual, and that it can't just be all sunshine and roses, but dear lord, attempting to do manual recruitment is painful with tools. I haven't done straight-up manual from the activity feed in years, because it's simply not a feasible task. Maybe rolling the canrecruit shard into the newnations shard somehow? Maybe a shard that would look something like this? &q=newnations+canrecruit=karma to get all the new nations that can be recruited by Karma? This would benefit both API and manual recruitment, but oh my word, filtering out puppets is a nightmare, we may as well be able to filter out the nations we've already targeted with stamps. Please.

[Kringalia]

I don't know if I'm misreading here, but under this proposed change would a link that says "click here to submit an application" and takes you to a prefilled telegram be now illegal?

[Sandaoguo]

This can't be permitted because it destroys the ability of bots and human players to co-exist on the site. Once we allow "manual" activity on the HTML site that, in practice, is highly automated, no regular human players can compete unless they too have such tools.

This seems like searching for a solution to a made up problem. These scripts save about 2 touches — adding recipients and a message. The rule change thus adds only 2 touches, copy/pasting a recipients list and a message, both of which will be auto generated and just need copied over. I don’t see the point in forcing those 2 additional touches, and conversely the point in banning scripts from cutting down on just 2 touches.

Which kind of makes this a rule change intended to *stop* the scripts altogether, not just from creating pre-formatted URLs, but from creating preformatted content altogether that’s then pasted over manually. Because you’re not saving much or impacting much (contrary to the complaints from manual recruiters) by changing the rule on URLs. So there’s probably an assumption or hope here that adding 2 annoying touches makes people start thinking there’s no point in script-assisted recruitment at all. *shrugs*

[Bassiliya]

We're open to this, although we do need to do something about the current situation in a timely manner. Can you specify the balance changes you'd like implemented at the same time?

UC stated the universally desired changes. I'd put a heavy emphasis on not making doing manual recruitment such a pain. I like UC's ideas of how to implement changing recruitment to make the playing field more even. I have a few QOL things of my own to suggest be discussed, but aside from UC's 2 main necessary points, there is not much else to say.

I think something else that would be helpful is changing the queue and how telegrams make their way into a user's inbox. I'm unsure of the specifics about how telegram delivery works exactly, but it would be nice to have manually sent telegrams to receive either a higher priority or a lower wait time for queueing between the API and stamp queues. Less a necessary thing, but more of a desire. There needs to be something done with the return rates that manual recruiters get for each telegram.

One of the other things that has really annoyed me over time is the 10 second wait time on recruitment telegrams. This is more something I'd like seen addressed rather than taken away. The standard feedback when you try and send a telegram too soon is basically stating that, in order to avoid spam, there is a wait time. I have understood this to be 10 seconds per recipient. Why this is a bit annoying is because telegrams marked as recruitment telegrams cannot arrive in the mailbox of a targeted nation more than once in 28 days (as I understand it) from a single region. Sending 83 telegrams marked as recruitment telegrams to the same user will be pointless since only one of those telegrams will end up in their inbox and the rest will end up in the "Recruitment Too Soon" section. A nice QoL advancement would be for this limit to perhaps be lowered to 3 or 5 seconds per recipient instead. It ensures that our telegrams will get out ASAP and have to jocky less with stamps for the attention of new players.

[Guess and Check]

I think this thread from Peeps (admittedly with many of its ideas already being somewhat mentioned here and noting I don't agree with some of its specifics) and Refuge's aforementioned region page could warrant having a look taken as well.

I also agree with raising stamp costs, decreasing API rate limits, and removing the spam limits on recruitment telegrams (those are just kinda annoying). Ultimately, anything to just make free forms of recruitment more efficient is beneficial, considering the considerably less time we have per day to manually recruit without these scripts resulting in a large drop in the # of nations our regions can recruit per day.

[Yuts Knenxland]

If I'm not wrong, a telegram gets selected from either one of the three queues to get sent, so I'll like to propose having manual recruitment to have a higher chance to get sent, perhaps a 50% - 25% - 25%.

That way, although Manual is harder to send now, the chance to get through increases, making it more enticing

[Sedgistan]

If I'm not wrong, a telegram gets selected from either one of the three queues to get sent, so I'll like to propose having manual recruitment to have a higher chance to get sent, perhaps a 50% - 25% - 25%.

We've discussed something along those lines internally previously, and I'm told it's a trivial change to make, so could well be introduced alongside this rule change.

[[violet]]

Yes, changing the priority weightings of the queue channels is the easiest change we can make. They're currently set to 33-33-33, which means that whenever a new nation completes its cooldown and becomes eligible to receive a recruitment telegram, a channel is chosen at random, and is equally likely to be manual, API, or stamps.

It should be noted that these channels are already auto-balancing, to an extent. From an individual recruiter's point of view, the manual channel is faster today purely because there's less volume in it. That is, each time a recruitment TG gets delivered, there's a 33% chance it has come the manual channel, but there are way fewer TGs competing with each other for selection than in the API and stamps channels, so it has a higher chance of being delivered sooner.

Note that this chance is directly impacted by the highly-automated manual recruitment bots we're discussing in this thread, which out-compete other recruitment TGs in the manual channel. That is, when there are more TGs entering the manual channel, all manual recruitment gets slowed down, while TGs in the API and stamps channels aren't affected.

If the price of stamps rises, we would expect fewer TGs in the stamps channel, meaning each individual TG would improve its delivery odds (while, again, not affecting manual or API TGs). Which would be good, because currently they are very low. Conversely, if we raise the API ratelimit, there would be more competition between API TGs, and each could expect to arrive a little more slowly.

[Bears Armed]

How does using a bot count as "manual"?

[Refuge Isle]

How does using a bot count as "manual"?

Reading the thread might help. A bot is not sending telegrams, the controversy is regarding a bot creating a URL the populates recipients or template codes, which a player can click and then manually send themselves.

So long as there is a newnations shard, players will always be able to call it twice and use simple math to subtract nations that they have not seen before, with a timer or alert system instead of having one's eyeballs melt staring at the feed. Since there are no NS-based aids to manual recruitment besides the newnations shard, it is logical that simple tools would be developed to facilitate recruitment and the accessibility of doing so.

I assume that is the shard's intended purpose.

[United Calanworie]

Note that this chance is directly impacted by the highly-automated manual recruitment bots we're discussing in this thread, which out-compete other recruitment TGs in the manual channel. That is, when there are more TGs entering the manual channel, all manual recruitment gets slowed down, while TGs in the API and stamps channels aren't affected.

Do you have statistics that you are willing/able to share on them out-competing other methods of manual telegrams? Or is it simply (as you seem to imply by the second sentence here) that because they're an aid that reduces strain on the recruiter, that people using these tools send more in each recruiting session, thereby "out-competing" other methods of recruiting? If it's the latter - why is that a bad thing? If it's the former, why not consider raising the spam rate limit dynamically for extended recruiting sessions, thereby reducing the impact of strain-relief tools, instead of removing them entirely?

[[violet]]

Do you have statistics that you are willing/able to share on them out-competing other methods of manual telegrams? Or is it simply (as you seem to imply by the second sentence here) that because they're an aid that reduces strain on the recruiter, that people using these tools send more in each recruiting session, thereby "out-competing" other methods of recruiting?

The latter - I just mean that a tool that lets people send recruitment TGs into the manual channel faster and more efficiently will perform better than someone doing the same thing without that tool.

If it's the latter - why is that a bad thing?

Because we chose to support three different ways of recruitment. For people who want to spend time & effort: manual. For people who want to write bots: API. For people who want to spend money: stamps. This was a design decision made back when manual recruitment was the only option. But it doesn't work if bots use the manual channel.

[United Calanworie]

Do you have statistics that you are willing/able to share on them out-competing other methods of manual telegrams? Or is it simply (as you seem to imply by the second sentence here) that because they're an aid that reduces strain on the recruiter, that people using these tools send more in each recruiting session, thereby "out-competing" other methods of recruiting?

The latter - I just mean that a tool that lets people send recruitment TGs into the manual channel faster and more efficiently will perform better than someone doing the same thing without that tool.

How is it faster? Do people typically not bump up against the spam limit every once in a while when sending telegrams otherwise?

If it's the latter - why is that a bad thing?

Because we chose to support three different ways of recruitment. For people who want to spend time & effort: manual. For people who want to write bots: API. For people who want to spend money: stamps. This was a design decision made back when manual recruitment was the only option. But it doesn't work if bots use the manual channel.

I guess what I want to know then is how much time and effort do you want somebody to be spending while doing manual? Do you have a (roughly) quantifiable amount? Because from my point of view, you're still spending a fair amount of time and energy doing manual, even with these tools.

[New Astri]

Do you have statistics that you are willing/able to share on them out-competing other methods of manual telegrams? Or is it simply (as you seem to imply by the second sentence here) that because they're an aid that reduces strain on the recruiter, that people using these tools send more in each recruiting session, thereby "out-competing" other methods of recruiting?

The latter - I just mean that a tool that lets people send recruitment TGs into the manual channel faster and more efficiently will perform better than someone doing the same thing without that tool.

as someone who's done manual both with and without tools i can say w a lot of certainty that using tools isn't faster at all it just feels less sucky

[Sedgistan]

The latter - I just mean that a tool that lets people send recruitment TGs into the manual channel faster and more efficiently will perform better than someone doing the same thing without that tool.

as someone who's done manual both with and without tools i can say w a lot of certainty that using tools isn't faster at all it just feels less sucky

Doubtful. Before my mod days, I sent tens of thousands of recruitment TGs, both with tools and without. Even the primitive tools of 12-15 years ago made it a hell of a lot faster.

[Flanderlion]

You could change the rate limit for manual so that tools wouldn't provide an advantage over normal manual. If the rate limit is 2 every 100 seconds, bot assisted manual or not, there isn't going to be a major advantage to the assisted ones. Of course 2/100 seconds might be a little low. Combine that with increasing the likelihood of a manual TG being picked as mentioned above, and the problems with manual just become recruiters complaining about a rate limit, rather than having to worry about enforcing stuff.

Re the intentions of the three paths, stamps are too cheap, and API isn't really meeting the brief as players are just running other people's tools rather than creating/understanding them. I still want to use stamps to send TGs to a list of players a bot creates (albeit not for recruitment purposes). Happy to pay 2 stamps rather than 1 (or 20 instead of 10 etc) for giving an option outside of today's manually TGing 1000 nations.

[Bassiliya]

The latter - I just mean that a tool that lets people send recruitment TGs into the manual channel faster and more efficiently will perform better than someone doing the same thing without that tool.

More efficiently, yes, of course. Faster? From my understanding, it's just as fast. I've known manual recruiters who could totally outpace someone sending with a tool, especially if they were dedicated. All the tool does it make it easier to send telegrams. It's still bound by the rate, still bound by the anti-spam, still bound by the queue. If these tools were somehow bypassing the normal way to send telegrams (which they can't), then there would be an issue. I think the statement that they will outperform is misleading; they can. I don't have access to the real statistics, but I have a feeling that raw manual recruitment could probably reach a nation faster than a bot-assisted recruiter because bots have to make API calls, sort, filter, compile, and then present the link whereas raw manual only needs to click two buttons, paste, and click another.

[New Astri]

as someone who's done manual both with and without tools i can say w a lot of certainty that using tools isn't faster at all it just feels less sucky

Doubtful. Before my mod days, I sent tens of thousands of recruitment TGs, both with tools and without. Even the primitive tools of 12-15 years ago made it a hell of a lot faster.

there's, like, a legally required time/rate limit thing yeah? not really sure how you'd be going faster when you can only send one chunk of 8 every 1-ish minute regardless of if yr using a tool or not.

[The Unified Missourtama States]

Doubtful. Before my mod days, I sent tens of thousands of recruitment TGs, both with tools and without. Even the primitive tools of 12-15 years ago made it a hell of a lot faster.

there's, like, a legally required time/rate limit thing yeah? not really sure how you'd be going faster when you can only send one chunk of 8 every 1-ish minute regardless of if yr using a tool or not.

Not if you're doing it manually (one click to one action).

[Bassiliya]

there's, like, a legally required time/rate limit thing yeah? not really sure how you'd be going faster when you can only send one chunk of 8 every 1-ish minute regardless of if yr using a tool or not.

Not if you're doing it manually (one click to one action).

The 10-second per recipient anti-spam measure still applies to manually sent telegrams, regardless of the "one click, one action" rule. (Note: I've asked before, but I've never received direct confirmation that it is 10 seconds per recipient, but I have found this to be the case via experience)

[Flanderlion]

Not if you're doing it manually (one click to one action).

The 10-second per recipient anti-spam measure still applies to manually sent telegrams, regardless of the "one click, one action" rule. (Note: I've asked before, but I've never received direct confirmation that it is 10 seconds per recipient, but I have found this to be the case via experience)

I thought it varied based on population?

[Refuge Isle]

as someone who's done manual both with and without tools i can say w a lot of certainty that using tools isn't faster at all it just feels less sucky

Doubtful. Before my mod days, I sent tens of thousands of recruitment TGs, both with tools and without. Even the primitive tools of 12-15 years ago made it a hell of a lot faster.

If it made it faster, then you weren't that good of a manual recruiter, no offence. These days you need to send pretty much instantly off the feed. And if you have a new nation and your cooldowns are much higher, then you're pretty constantly butting up against the timer. So, in that regard, do tools make it faster? No, they do not because you should always be sending as fast as the nations appear.

Tools make it so this process isn't as soul-sucking with eyes burning away at the feed and, ideally, makes manual recruitment viable for the site's abundant mobile-only population.

[Yuts Knenxland]

Not if you're doing it manually (one click to one action).

The 10-second per recipient anti-spam measure still applies to manually sent telegrams, regardless of the "one click, one action" rule. (Note: I've asked before, but I've never received direct confirmation that it is 10 seconds per recipient, but I have found this to be the case via experience)

I would've thought that there would be a slight increment as you send more, though I could be wrong.
When sending one at a time, it definitely feels faster than 10s.
It could also just be my pageloads being long enough to the point that when I open the next nation, 10s has mostly passed
┐(￣ヘ￣;)┌


Also to weigh in on above, I also agree with the sentiment that stamp costs should not be raised, since mass telegrams are still nice to have at times. (Those end of the year types are nice)

I think I would also like to see a shortening of the (Last recruitment was too soon), I never knew it was 28 days, and that seems especially long. I feel that relatively new nations should have a chance several days down to get telegrams from regions that perhaps they had originally dismissed during their first few minutes.

To put out a suggestion - what if the stamped telegram queue were cut off after the [first hour] of a nation's founding?
That way, some stamps get through, but are severely limited by the [1h] limit that stamps can get through, which places more emphasis on API and Manual.

[Bassiliya]

To put out a suggestion - what if the stamped telegram queue were cut off after the [first hour] of a nation's founding?
That way, some stamps get through, but are severely limited by the [1h] limit that stamps can get through, which places more emphasis on API and Manual.

But wouldn't that negate the whole non-recruitment campaign stamps thing? If you cut off the stamp queue at some point for the nation, then you arbitrarily have to pick a day when they can again receive them. That seems like a messy solution, at best. It would be easier (and far more effective) to increase the price of stamps overall. I don't see how increasing said price could prohibit people from using them, it would just make them think twice about how they use them. Perhaps it would help with the rampant poaching going on in the world.