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Chicken Overlords and game health

Bug reports, general help, ideas for improvements, and questions about how things are meant to work.

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CoraSpia
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Founded: Mar 01, 2014
Anarchy

Postby CoraSpia » Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:49 am

I can't help but feel that if server health was an issue, the admins would have already done something about it. They did something about it when it came to the sinkers which makes me assume that they're capable of doing that if they thought the situation was getting too out of hand. Given they've not done anything about it where is the issue here?
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Bears Armed
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Bears Armed » Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:18 am

Limiting region size would make more sense than limiting number of puppets, because if you just say "no more than 1'000 puppets per person" then that still allows groups of people who have (or newly create) that many puppets each to combine those into very large regions and re-create this perceived problem.
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Population = just under 20 million. Economy = only Thriving. Average Life expectancy = c.60 years. If the nation is classified as 'Anarchy' there still is a [strictly limited] national government... and those aren't "biker gangs", they're traditional cross-Clan 'Warrior Societies', generally respected rather than feared.
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Merni
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Merni » Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:13 am

Bears Armed wrote:Limiting region size would make more sense than limiting number of puppets, because if you just say "no more than 1'000 puppets per person" then that still allows groups of people who have (or newly create) that many puppets each to combine those into very large regions and re-create this perceived problem.

On the other hand limiting region size would just mean a puppetmaster would just split their puppets into multiple regions.
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Unibot III
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Unibot III » Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:31 am

Jar Wattinree wrote:
Unibot III wrote:
Well, if you cannot convince moderation that it's an OOC issue, you've got one route left: IC. When you eliminate the impossible, what remains - how ever unlikely - becomes your best option. Just something to keep in mind if the conversation with NS Moderation doesn't go the way you want it to go.

It'd be the equivalent of a nation IRL complaining there are other nations with too many people. Ineffectual, looks silly, and you get laughed at.


Well, to me there’s no point in pursuing this as an Anti-Puppet movement. Puppets in general aren’t really a problem, it becomes a problem when you’re storing so many puppets in a region that update slows down punitively to update the region. That’s the only really compelling interest in throttling these region sizes that the WASC might have.

Update is a relatively constant speed, so you pick a time delay that is acceptable to most parties, then legislate a puppet storage limit based off that time.
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The North Polish Union
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Moralistic Democracy

Postby The North Polish Union » Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:34 am

Jar Wattinree wrote:
Unibot III wrote:
Well, if you cannot convince moderation that it's an OOC issue, you've got one route left: IC. When you eliminate the impossible, what remains - how ever unlikely - becomes your best option. Just something to keep in mind if the conversation with NS Moderation doesn't go the way you want it to go.

It'd be the equivalent of a nation IRL complaining there are other nations with too many people. Ineffectual, looks silly, and you get laughed at.

WASC condemned True North for puppetspamming its way to the largest region in the world years ago.
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Galiantus III
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Galiantus III » Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:26 am

Bears Armed wrote:Limiting region size would make more sense than limiting number of puppets, because if you just say "no more than 1'000 puppets per person" then that still allows groups of people who have (or newly create) that many puppets each to combine those into very large regions and re-create this perceived problem.

Agreed. It's also better for moderation, as region size can be regulated mechanically.

That said, the devil's in the details. Placing a hard cap would invite piling puppets as a means of defense, and it would become a cascading problem for GCRs and frontiers. I'm inclined to say build a flexible cap around WA membership. For example:

- Cap = A × WA population + B (where B is the desired default cap)

- Only WA members may enter a region that has hit its cap. If resigning the WA causes the cap to fall below the population, non-WA nations with the lowest residency are automatically ejected to meet the cap.

- GCRs and frontiers would probably need their own rules.

- It may be necessary to add "overflow" catcher regions to alleviate the influx to TRR.

This would allow individual players to have as many puppets as they like, as long as they are spread between multiple regions. But it would also be flexible, so that in cases where a large number of nations makes sense it is allowed. And since the cap couldn't prevent the movement of WA members, this wouldn't affect military gameplay.
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For some reason I have a mental image of a dolphin, trying to organize a new pod of his fellow dolphins to change the course of a nuclear sub. It's entertaining, I'll give ya that.
Ballotonia wrote:
Testing is for sissies. The actual test is to see how many people complain when any change is made ;)

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Wayneactia
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Posts: 3559
Founded: Aug 01, 2014
New York Times Democracy

Postby Wayneactia » Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:24 am

Is anyone going to produce any sort of evidence that puppet farms are actually hurting the game technically? If not, this is nothing more than an exercise in futility. Something within the last five years or so would be ideal.
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CoraSpia
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Founded: Mar 01, 2014
Anarchy

Postby CoraSpia » Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:27 am

Wayneactia wrote:Is anyone going to produce any sort of evidence that puppet farms are actually hurting the game technically? If not, this is nothing more than an exercise in futility. Something within the last five years or so would be ideal.

Only people who could do that really are the admins, and since they've not said anything on the subject (as far as anyone who has posted here could possibly know) I can only assume that this is a non-issue. Honestly unsure what the big issue is.
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Fauzjhia
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Founded: Jul 29, 2014
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Fauzjhia » Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:47 am

Wayneactia wrote:Is anyone going to produce any sort of evidence that puppet farms are actually hurting the game technically? If not, this is nothing more than an exercise in futility. Something within the last five years or so would be ideal.

<
just saying, we are not talking about puppets farms.
we are talking about pointless, non-issues answering puppets. that only exist to boost a region stats and nations numbers.
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Galiantus III
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Galiantus III » Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:04 pm

CoraSpia wrote:
Wayneactia wrote:Is anyone going to produce any sort of evidence that puppet farms are actually hurting the game technically? If not, this is nothing more than an exercise in futility. Something within the last five years or so would be ideal.

Only people who could do that really are the admins, and since they've not said anything on the subject (as far as anyone who has posted here could possibly know) I can only assume that this is a non-issue. Honestly unsure what the big issue is.

I've pointed this out multiple times, but apparently no one is listening: [violet] said it here 5 years ago, and Sedge cited it as a problem here this year. And I believe other staff have said it other places, but I'm not going to waste my time looking. So unless there's been some serious miscommunication, or admin says otherwise, there are clear indications from relevant people (admin and development managers) that this is a problem.
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Frisbeeteria wrote:
For some reason I have a mental image of a dolphin, trying to organize a new pod of his fellow dolphins to change the course of a nuclear sub. It's entertaining, I'll give ya that.
Ballotonia wrote:
Testing is for sissies. The actual test is to see how many people complain when any change is made ;)

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United Republic Empire
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Posts: 395
Founded: Jul 27, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby United Republic Empire » Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:14 pm

CoraSpia wrote:
Wayneactia wrote:Is anyone going to produce any sort of evidence that puppet farms are actually hurting the game technically? If not, this is nothing more than an exercise in futility. Something within the last five years or so would be ideal.

Only people who could do that really are the admins, and since they've not said anything on the subject (as far as anyone who has posted here could possibly know) I can only assume that this is a non-issue. Honestly unsure what the big issue is.


It looks more like there is a "roadblock" of sorts for r/d players and it apparently somehow hinders their ability to perform r/d tasks by having to wait a little extra. So naturally and understandably they would want to remove something that hinders their r/d abilities. If the technical team felt it was a major problem that was super serious and scary for all the other players/NS then obviously they would of imposed a limit awhile ago. But then again maybe I could be wrong and r/d is struggling and must seriously need this roadblock removed at once before the whole site some crashing down on our heads.

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United Republic Empire
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Founded: Jul 27, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby United Republic Empire » Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:17 pm

Galiantus III wrote:
CoraSpia wrote:Only people who could do that really are the admins, and since they've not said anything on the subject (as far as anyone who has posted here could possibly know) I can only assume that this is a non-issue. Honestly unsure what the big issue is.

I've pointed this out multiple times, but apparently no one is listening: [violet] said it here 5 years ago, and Sedge cited it as a problem here this year. And I believe other staff have said it other places, but I'm not going to waste my time looking. So unless there's been some serious miscommunication, or admin says otherwise, there are clear indications from relevant people (admin and development managers) that this is a problem.


If it was considered a problem then why was it never taken care of then. Just for another round of complaining with weak arguments 5 years later to spur up.

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Galiantus III
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Founded: Jan 23, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Galiantus III » Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:46 pm

United Republic Empire wrote:If it was considered a problem then why was it never taken care of then. Just for another round of complaining with weak arguments 5 years later to spur up.

Because Admin's time is limited, and they have prioritized other things. Also "the problem hasn't been fixed, so it must not really be a problem" is a horrible argument.
The goal of Socialism is Fascism.
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Frisbeeteria wrote:
For some reason I have a mental image of a dolphin, trying to organize a new pod of his fellow dolphins to change the course of a nuclear sub. It's entertaining, I'll give ya that.
Ballotonia wrote:
Testing is for sissies. The actual test is to see how many people complain when any change is made ;)

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Fauzjhia
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Posts: 1604
Founded: Jul 29, 2014
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Fauzjhia » Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:52 pm

United Republic Empire wrote:
CoraSpia wrote:Only people who could do that really are the admins, and since they've not said anything on the subject (as far as anyone who has posted here could possibly know) I can only assume that this is a non-issue. Honestly unsure what the big issue is.


It looks more like there is a "roadblock" of sorts for r/d players and it apparently somehow hinders their ability to perform r/d tasks by having to wait a little extra. So naturally and understandably they would want to remove something that hinders their r/d abilities. If the technical team felt it was a major problem that was super serious and scary for all the other players/NS then obviously they would of imposed a limit awhile ago. But then again maybe I could be wrong and r/d is struggling and must seriously need this roadblock removed at once before the whole site some crashing down on our heads.



it does not just affect r/d players, because of update time.
the womble nation also create a big wall that prevent from progressing in multiple stats, like civil rights, because of the sheer number of nation who have 97 civil rights, and will never go down, because they do not answer any issues. ever.
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United Republic Empire
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Founded: Jul 27, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby United Republic Empire » Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:07 pm

Galiantus III wrote:
United Republic Empire wrote:If it was considered a problem then why was it never taken care of then. Just for another round of complaining with weak arguments 5 years later to spur up.

Because Admin's time is limited, and they have prioritized other things. Also "the problem hasn't been fixed, so it must not really be a problem" is a horrible argument.


not when it's been Five years, Would it really take admin five years to fix anything that was this serious and scary. Especially when you put into comparison the amount of accomplishments they've made over the last five years and the relatively short amount of time needed to implement each of those technical accomplishments. You're telling me they couldn't slap on a limit after a minimum or at least a years work into a project like that.

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Galiantus III
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Galiantus III » Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:20 pm

United Republic Empire wrote:not when it's been Five years, Would it really take admin five years to fix anything that was this serious and scary. Especially when you put into comparison the amount of accomplishments they've made over the last five years and the relatively short amount of time needed to implement each of those technical accomplishments. You're telling me they couldn't slap on a limit after a minimum or at least a years work into a project like that.


Invalid argument. You don't know their priorities, you don't know what they know. And going by their word, so far it is a problem. You're also ignoring this post from the past four months:

Sedgistan wrote:The main advantages of this change are:
  • Reduces the over-sized feeders (bad for technical reasons)
  • Dilutes GCR influence
  • Gives a more lasting/reliable opt-out from being invaded for those that want it
[...]


That right there is site staff saying (a) large regions cause problems, and (b) they are trying to fix it.
The goal of Socialism is Fascism.
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Frisbeeteria wrote:
For some reason I have a mental image of a dolphin, trying to organize a new pod of his fellow dolphins to change the course of a nuclear sub. It's entertaining, I'll give ya that.
Ballotonia wrote:
Testing is for sissies. The actual test is to see how many people complain when any change is made ;)

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CoraSpia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13457
Founded: Mar 01, 2014
Anarchy

Postby CoraSpia » Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:30 pm

Galiantus III wrote:
United Republic Empire wrote:not when it's been Five years, Would it really take admin five years to fix anything that was this serious and scary. Especially when you put into comparison the amount of accomplishments they've made over the last five years and the relatively short amount of time needed to implement each of those technical accomplishments. You're telling me they couldn't slap on a limit after a minimum or at least a years work into a project like that.


Invalid argument. You don't know their priorities, you don't know what they know. And going by their word, so far it is a problem. You're also ignoring this post from the past four months:

Sedgistan wrote:The main advantages of this change are:
  • Reduces the over-sized feeders (bad for technical reasons)
  • Dilutes GCR influence
  • Gives a more lasting/reliable opt-out from being invaded for those that want it
[...]


That right there is site staff saying (a) large regions cause problems, and (b) they are trying to fix it.

I'd question it even coming from Sedge if I'm totally honest, given that the admins have done nothing on the subject. When Lazarus got to a size that couldn't be managed, they quickly brought in the other sinkers.
Since then we've been paying for stamps and Max has had more books out. It is quite likely that server upgrades have been made; they were probably even made by the host over time.
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United Republic Empire
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Posts: 395
Founded: Jul 27, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby United Republic Empire » Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:38 pm

Galiantus III wrote:
United Republic Empire wrote:not when it's been Five years, Would it really take admin five years to fix anything that was this serious and scary. Especially when you put into comparison the amount of accomplishments they've made over the last five years and the relatively short amount of time needed to implement each of those technical accomplishments. You're telling me they couldn't slap on a limit after a minimum or at least a years work into a project like that.


Invalid argument. You don't know their priorities, you don't know what they know. And going by their word, so far it is a problem. You're also ignoring this post from the past four months:

Sedgistan wrote:The main advantages of this change are:
  • Reduces the over-sized feeders (bad for technical reasons)
  • Dilutes GCR influence
  • Gives a more lasting/reliable opt-out from being invaded for those that want it
[...]


That right there is site staff saying (a) large regions cause problems, and (b) they are trying to fix it.


Hmm nothing mentioning UCR's being a problem only that GCR's being too big cause the issue. If anything it makes you're argument weaker since that same change would allow regions like CO to receive new nations and become even bigger if they wanted.

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Bears Armed
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20894
Founded: Jun 01, 2006
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Bears Armed » Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:46 pm

Fauzjhia wrote:
Wayneactia wrote:Is anyone going to produce any sort of evidence that puppet farms are actually hurting the game technically? If not, this is nothing more than an exercise in futility. Something within the last five years or so would be ideal.

<
just saying, we are not talking about puppets farms.
we are talking about pointless, non-issues answering puppets. that only exist to boost a region stats and nations numbers.

For some people, boosting their region's stats & number of nations apparently is a point. It might not be a point that you want to make, but that doesn't make it automatically invalid. I've seen various other ways of playing (e.g. the GA, or R/D...) called "pointless", by players whom they don't interest, too.
Last edited by Bears Armed on Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Confrederated Clans (and other Confrederated Bodys) of the Free Bears of Bears Armed
(includes The Ursine NorthLands) Demonym = Bear[s]; adjective = ‘Urrsish’.
Population = just under 20 million. Economy = only Thriving. Average Life expectancy = c.60 years. If the nation is classified as 'Anarchy' there still is a [strictly limited] national government... and those aren't "biker gangs", they're traditional cross-Clan 'Warrior Societies', generally respected rather than feared.
Author of some GA Resolutions, via Bears Armed Mission; subject of an SC resolution.
Factbook. We have more than 70 MAPS. Visitors' Guide.
The IDU's WA Drafting Room is open to help you.
Author of issues #429, 712, 729, 934, 1120, 1152, 1474, 1521.

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Jabberwocky
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Posts: 541
Founded: Nov 02, 2017
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Jabberwocky » Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:47 pm

From a practical standpoint, card farming and the proliferation of puppets has made recruiting a futile task. There are more puppets than mains.
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Galiantus III
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Founded: Jan 23, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Galiantus III » Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:48 pm

CoraSpia wrote:I'd question it even coming from Sedge if I'm totally honest, given that the admins have done nothing on the subject. When Lazarus got to a size that couldn't be managed, they quickly brought in the other sinkers.

Adding more sinkers (a feature which already exists) is much easier to do than add something totally new. New sinkers is probably as easy as a moderator creating a new region and editing a few fields. Putting limits on region size would require admin coding something up that would fundamentally change how things work.

Since then we've been paying for stamps and Max has had more books out. It is quite likely that server upgrades have been made; they were probably even made by the host over time.

I don't doubt it, but in that time the server has also taken on other technically challenging things (cards being the most obvious one). So who is to say the stress on the server has changed all that much? If nothing else, having smaller regions would simply be a nice bonus for server performance, and would create room for other features to run.

And even if we ignore server issues, we have got skewed world census rankings, longer dead zones during update for R/D, and cards no one wants. So lots of players are affected by this and have a reason to want something to be done about it.
Last edited by Galiantus III on Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The goal of Socialism is Fascism.
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Frisbeeteria wrote:
For some reason I have a mental image of a dolphin, trying to organize a new pod of his fellow dolphins to change the course of a nuclear sub. It's entertaining, I'll give ya that.
Ballotonia wrote:
Testing is for sissies. The actual test is to see how many people complain when any change is made ;)

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Bears Armed
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20894
Founded: Jun 01, 2006
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Bears Armed » Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:50 pm

Jabberwocky wrote:From a practical standpoint, card farming and the proliferation of puppets has made recruiting a futile task. There are more puppets than mains.

Allowing the use of scripts and stamps for recruiting made recruiting a fairly futile task, because its spamming effect encourages people to block all recruiting TGs...
The Confrederated Clans (and other Confrederated Bodys) of the Free Bears of Bears Armed
(includes The Ursine NorthLands) Demonym = Bear[s]; adjective = ‘Urrsish’.
Population = just under 20 million. Economy = only Thriving. Average Life expectancy = c.60 years. If the nation is classified as 'Anarchy' there still is a [strictly limited] national government... and those aren't "biker gangs", they're traditional cross-Clan 'Warrior Societies', generally respected rather than feared.
Author of some GA Resolutions, via Bears Armed Mission; subject of an SC resolution.
Factbook. We have more than 70 MAPS. Visitors' Guide.
The IDU's WA Drafting Room is open to help you.
Author of issues #429, 712, 729, 934, 1120, 1152, 1474, 1521.

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Wayneactia
Senator
 
Posts: 3559
Founded: Aug 01, 2014
New York Times Democracy

Postby Wayneactia » Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:02 pm

CoraSpia wrote:
Wayneactia wrote:Is anyone going to produce any sort of evidence that puppet farms are actually hurting the game technically? If not, this is nothing more than an exercise in futility. Something within the last five years or so would be ideal.

Only people who could do that really are the admins, and since they've not said anything on the subject (as far as anyone who has posted here could possibly know) I can only assume that this is a non-issue. Honestly unsure what the big issue is.

From what I can deduce, certain people think it affects R/D, and people don't like getting junk cards. I know, I know. The humanity of it all......

Fauzjhia wrote:<
just saying, we are not talking about puppets farms.
we are talking about pointless, non-issues answering puppets. that only exist to boost a region stats and nations numbers.

Just saying, show me some actual evidence that it is a harm to the game? Lots of people have massive puppet farms for farming. They, therefore pull more packs, and thus can dilute the market with hundreds of low grade cards at cheap prices, which drives down the market. That's not against the rules now is it? So why should it be against the rules to spam puppets into a region to try and gain the biggest region?

Sandaoguo wrote:The simplest solution here is to just puppetsweep. Not everything has to be some neutral universal game rule. Massive puppet regions like this don’t add any value to the game, while they do come with considerable costs. Admins really shouldn’t think twice about reducing their size. It’s not like you’re angering 13,000 players.

No you angering a select few who have not broken a single rule.

Galiantus III wrote:
United Republic Empire wrote:not when it's been Five years, Would it really take admin five years to fix anything that was this serious and scary. Especially when you put into comparison the amount of accomplishments they've made over the last five years and the relatively short amount of time needed to implement each of those technical accomplishments. You're telling me they couldn't slap on a limit after a minimum or at least a years work into a project like that.


Invalid argument. You don't know their priorities, you don't know what they know. And going by their word, so far it is a problem. You're also ignoring this post from the past four months:

Sedgistan wrote:The main advantages of this change are:
  • Reduces the over-sized feeders (bad for technical reasons)
  • Dilutes GCR influence
  • Gives a more lasting/reliable opt-out from being invaded for those that want it
[...]


That right there is site staff saying (a) large regions cause problems, and (b) they are trying to fix it.

Did Sedge ever elaborate on what "technical problems" this actually somehow creates? Somehow I don't believe he ever did, or you would have been whipping the card out already. As I said before, the creativity of all of this never fails to amaze me. If this is anything, it is a mods as weapons complaint just waiting to happen.
Last edited by Wayneactia on Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sarcasm dispensed moderately.
RiderSyl wrote:You'd really think that defenders would communicate with each other about this. I know they're not a hivemind, but at least some level of PR skill would keep Quebecshire and Quebecshire from publically contradicting eac

wait

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Haganham
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Founded: Aug 17, 2021
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Postby Haganham » Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:41 pm

United Republic Empire wrote:not when it's been Five years, Would it really take admin five years to fix anything that was this serious and scary.
Absolutely. I've heard staff mention more serious issues that are old enough to drink. Some talk about the site in ways that make me think that bit about hamsters may not be jest.
Last edited by Haganham on Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Wayneactia
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Posts: 3559
Founded: Aug 01, 2014
New York Times Democracy

Postby Wayneactia » Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:59 pm

Haganham wrote:
United Republic Empire wrote:not when it's been Five years, Would it really take admin five years to fix anything that was this serious and scary.
Absolutely. I've heard staff mention more serious issues that are old enough to drink. Some talk about the site in ways that make me think that bit about hamsters may not be jest.

Pretty sure the servers are running on an up to date VPS and not a 386 in Max's basement closet, so let's be real here okay?
Sarcasm dispensed moderately.
RiderSyl wrote:You'd really think that defenders would communicate with each other about this. I know they're not a hivemind, but at least some level of PR skill would keep Quebecshire and Quebecshire from publically contradicting eac

wait

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