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Chicken Overlords and game health

Bug reports, general help, ideas for improvements, and questions about how things are meant to work.

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Fauzjhia
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Postby Fauzjhia » Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:33 pm

Flanderlion wrote:Players having tens or even hundreds of puppets I think is fine. I personally want API logins to continue to reset the CTE timer. Pretty sure players would just legally or illegally do it via HTML site instead. It's a moderation thing, as like if someone has enough puppets to be a problem, it's fairly noticeable.

Just I view thousands as excessive, and no matter the reason for them, I don't view it as positive for the game as a whole when someone has that many. Those nations cost the site, but don't bring the positive of more players/ad revenue/NS store revenue etc.

Technical solutions like changing mechanics to not promote having thousands of puppets will help (e.g. cards) but in the end it's still going to come down to moderation/puppet sweeps for players like Womble/Parhe and the like who have thousands.

It will be very unpopular with the less than 10 players who would be affected by a limit of 1-2k (1k officially, 2k threshold for potential enforcement) but for the game/majority of players it will improve their own experiences.



I believe I could approve this measure.
I don't really have any intention of making more then 1000 puppets.
but I do love to collect my own cards.

still the numbers of nation this could now, is very small, but its balancing effect on many aspect/ card farming would be more then welcome.

on top of my mind, here are the owners of more then 1000 puppets (note some of them might not have that many puppets anymore)
Daytime to night with 1203
feu de glace with 2603
koem klab with 2087
noah second country 2444
oofery 1077
refuge isle 1432
seanat 1124
the northern light 3498
(declared or reported) so that's a grand total of 8 players.
although you can say not everyone reported their puppets.
Last edited by Fauzjhia on Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Outer Sparta
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Postby Outer Sparta » Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:19 pm

Fauzjhia wrote:
Flanderlion wrote:Players having tens or even hundreds of puppets I think is fine. I personally want API logins to continue to reset the CTE timer. Pretty sure players would just legally or illegally do it via HTML site instead. It's a moderation thing, as like if someone has enough puppets to be a problem, it's fairly noticeable.

Just I view thousands as excessive, and no matter the reason for them, I don't view it as positive for the game as a whole when someone has that many. Those nations cost the site, but don't bring the positive of more players/ad revenue/NS store revenue etc.

Technical solutions like changing mechanics to not promote having thousands of puppets will help (e.g. cards) but in the end it's still going to come down to moderation/puppet sweeps for players like Womble/Parhe and the like who have thousands.

It will be very unpopular with the less than 10 players who would be affected by a limit of 1-2k (1k officially, 2k threshold for potential enforcement) but for the game/majority of players it will improve their own experiences.



I believe I could approve this measure.
I don't really have any intention of making more then 1000 puppets.
but I do love to collect my own cards.

still the numbers of nation this could now, is very small, but its balancing effect on many aspect/ card farming would be more then welcome.

on top of my mind, here are the owners of more then 1000 puppets (note some of them might not have that many puppets anymore)
Daytime to night with 1203
feu de glace with 2603
koem klab with 2087
noah second country 2444
oofery 1077
refuge isle 1432
seanat 1124
the northern light 3498
(declared or reported) so that's a grand total of 8 players.
although you can say not everyone reported their puppets.

Obviously Noah and Koem Kab are large card collectors and obviously they have a lot. But others like whoever operates the Womble puppets don't even use them to collect cards.
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Fauzjhia
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Postby Fauzjhia » Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:24 pm

Outer Sparta wrote:Obviously Noah and Koem Kab are large card collectors and obviously they have a lot. But others like whoever operates the Womble puppets don't even use them to collect cards.



We know that,
but the idea of puppet-sweeping a player when their number of puppets are out of control, like wombles is not solely aimed at those 8 big cards farmers. its also aimed at womble.
Because we know that no reform will crush this womble wall. They sole reason for exist, is to be there.
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Outer Sparta
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Postby Outer Sparta » Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:27 pm

Fauzjhia wrote:
Outer Sparta wrote:Obviously Noah and Koem Kab are large card collectors and obviously they have a lot. But others like whoever operates the Womble puppets don't even use them to collect cards.



We know that,
but the idea of puppet-sweeping a player when their number of puppets are out of control, like wombles is not solely aimed at those 8 big cards farmers. its also aimed at womble.
Because we know that no reform will crush this womble wall. They sole reason for exist, is to be there.

I can understand those with a huge puppet count with card farming. I just find it weird that there are over 10k puppets by Womble and they only exist to inflate an entire region's nation count and basically boasting you have the biggest region on NS.
I don't stand with Ukraine. I don't stand with Russia. I don't stand with the US, NATO, or EU. I stand with the innocent civilians being caught in the crossfire while the politicians, the media, and weapons manufacturers continue to stoke division and conflict in their geopolitical chess games and treat the people of Ukraine as mere pawns. Zelensky is a corrupt, opportunist oligarchic politician who is not fit to lead Ukraine through anything and wants to inflate his own ego and offshore accounts.

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All Wild Things
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Postby All Wild Things » Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:29 am

If the size of Chicken Overlords is a serious problem, then I imagine that admin / moderation could probably fix it by politely asking Chicken Overlords to reduce their population, and explaining the reasons why.

That way there would be no unintended consequences imposed on everyone else by rule changes, and no bad feeling brought about by a sudden puppet sweep.
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Flanderlion
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Postby Flanderlion » Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:33 am

All Wild Things wrote:If the size of Chicken Overlords is a serious problem, then I imagine that admin / moderation could probably fix it by politely asking Chicken Overlords to reduce their population, and explaining the reasons why.

That way there would be no unintended consequences imposed on everyone else by rule changes, and no bad feeling brought about by a sudden puppet sweep.

'imposed on everyone else' - how many players do you think have thousands of nations? The average player, in fact, any player bar the few puppet extremists would be totally unaffected by the rule change.
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Durm
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Postby Durm » Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:41 am

Just leave the puppets alone.
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Honeydewistania
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Postby Honeydewistania » Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:48 am

Is it confirmed by admins or mods that Chicken Overlords is the reason cards/areas not R/D are having some sort of issues? If not, then I don’t support any change.


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All Wild Things
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Postby All Wild Things » Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:13 am

Flanderlion wrote:
All Wild Things wrote:If the size of Chicken Overlords is a serious problem, then I imagine that admin / moderation could probably fix it by politely asking Chicken Overlords to reduce their population, and explaining the reasons why.

That way there would be no unintended consequences imposed on everyone else by rule changes, and no bad feeling brought about by a sudden puppet sweep.

'imposed on everyone else' - how many players do you think have thousands of nations? The average player, in fact, any player bar the few puppet extremists would be totally unaffected by the rule change.

How many? I don't know. Quite a few. But it's kind of irrelevant to the issue.
The issue is apparently to do with the number of nations in a single region. If the Wombles were spread out over multiple regions, this server issue would go away (ignoring Sinkers for now).
If on the other hand players were limited to 1000 nations, then me and some friends could each move all our puppets into a single region. So the server issue would not be fixed.

If the problem can be solved by a polite telegram rather than a rule change that affects others, what's your objection to that approach?
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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:29 am

This is going to seem a bit soft, but perhaps players should propose a political answer to this problem rather than a technical one?

- Draft a WASC Declaration on Puppet Farms and their limits. Or puppet use in general.
- Consult impacted communities, like CO, on what might be an acceptable number to control farms at.
- Enforce community sanctions for violators, including but not limited to a WA Condemnation.
Last edited by Unibot III on Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
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Haganham
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Postby Haganham » Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:56 am

Unibot III wrote:This is going to seem a bit soft, but perhaps players should propose a political answer to this problem rather than a technical one?

- Draft a WASC Declaration on Puppet Farms and their limits. Or puppet use in general.
- Consult impacted communities, like CO, on what might be an acceptable number to control farms at.
- Enforce community sanctions for violators, including but not limited to a WA Condemnation.

This only works with groups that value the approval of the community. The problems we're seeing with puppetry are coming largely from players that are ambilivent or even hostile to the broader community, and would welcome a condemnation as validation of their actions.
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Fauzjhia
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Postby Fauzjhia » Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:01 am

All Wild Things wrote:
Flanderlion wrote:'imposed on everyone else' - how many players do you think have thousands of nations? The average player, in fact, any player bar the few puppet extremists would be totally unaffected by the rule change.

How many? I don't know. Quite a few. But it's kind of irrelevant to the issue.
The issue is apparently to do with the number of nations in a single region. If the Wombles were spread out over multiple regions, this server issue would go away (ignoring Sinkers for now).
If on the other hand players were limited to 1000 nations, then me and some friends could each move all our puppets into a single region. So the server issue would not be fixed.

If the problem can be solved by a polite telegram rather than a rule change that affects others, what's your objection to that approach?


if the problem could be solved with a polite telegram, we would not have this discussion right now.
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All Wild Things
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Postby All Wild Things » Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:13 am

Fauzjhia wrote:
All Wild Things wrote:How many? I don't know. Quite a few. But it's kind of irrelevant to the issue.
The issue is apparently to do with the number of nations in a single region. If the Wombles were spread out over multiple regions, this server issue would go away (ignoring Sinkers for now).
If on the other hand players were limited to 1000 nations, then me and some friends could each move all our puppets into a single region. So the server issue would not be fixed.

If the problem can be solved by a polite telegram rather than a rule change that affects others, what's your objection to that approach?


if the problem could be solved with a polite telegram, we would not have this discussion right now.

So you are telling me that Admin / Moderation have already approached the players in Chicken Overlords, asked them to reduce the region size, and that the players have refused?
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Fauzjhia
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Postby Fauzjhia » Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:42 am

All Wild Things wrote:
Fauzjhia wrote:
if the problem could be solved with a polite telegram, we would not have this discussion right now.

So you are telling me that Admin / Moderation have already approached the players in Chicken Overlords, asked them to reduce the region size, and that the players have refused?


no

I sent them a telegram, but I doubt I will get any favourable answer
Last edited by Fauzjhia on Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Doge Land
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Postby Doge Land » Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:41 pm

Well CO isn't #1 anymore, so I don't think anyone really cares anymore. Maybe they'll try to make more puppets but with sinkers hot on their tail I don't see them ever sustaining a population count at #1.
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Haganham
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Postby Haganham » Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:44 pm

Doge Land wrote:Well CO isn't #1 anymore, so I don't think anyone really cares anymore. Maybe they'll try to make more puppets but with sinkers hot on their tail I don't see them ever sustaining a population count at #1.

the sinkers will drop down in a couple months. those are just nday puppets no one cared to move out of their region. no one trying to make them the largest regions like with CO
Last edited by Haganham on Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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All Wild Things
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Postby All Wild Things » Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:58 pm

Fauzjhia wrote:
All Wild Things wrote:So you are telling me that Admin / Moderation have already approached the players in Chicken Overlords, asked them to reduce the region size, and that the players have refused?


no

I sent them a telegram, but I doubt I will get any favourable answer

I see. Seeing as you're neither admin nor mod, and don't have responsibility for the stability of the server, I also doubt you will get any favourable answer.
But as I mentioned earlier:
All Wild Things wrote:If the size of Chicken Overlords is a serious problem, then I imagine that admin / moderation could probably fix it by politely asking Chicken Overlords to reduce their population, and explaining the reasons why.

That way there would be no unintended consequences imposed on everyone else by rule changes, and no bad feeling brought about by a sudden puppet sweep.
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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:37 pm

Haganham wrote:
Unibot III wrote:This is going to seem a bit soft, but perhaps players should propose a political answer to this problem rather than a technical one?

- Draft a WASC Declaration on Puppet Farms and their limits. Or puppet use in general.
- Consult impacted communities, like CO, on what might be an acceptable number to control farms at.
- Enforce community sanctions for violators, including but not limited to a WA Condemnation.

This only works with groups that value the approval of the community. The problems we're seeing with puppetry are coming largely from players that are ambilivent or even hostile to the broader community, and would welcome a condemnation as validation of their actions.


I mean, perhaps. People can be stubborn but it's far easier to not be a pariah, then it is to be a pariah, I can testify to this. If someone were to pursue the idea, I would suggest inviting CO directly to the drafting of the resolution and its protocols privately & publicly. If they're involved in the forming of the terms of the protocol, they may feel more ownership and more at stake in the protocol being a success.

In a way it begins a conversation between the community that is frustrated with puppet farming and the communities directly invested in puppet farming because it forces the latter to say "okay, what kind of limit would satisfy you, so we can adapt to that and keep playing the game the way we like in relative peace?" and it forces the former to put a number to their limit - rather than complaining about puppets in an abstract or the act of it in an abstract, it forces the former to say "I can live with 2000" or whatever, I guess." "3000?" " Fine, 3000. Okay."

I don't think it can said for sure whether it would work or not till it's tried. I don't see a clear technical solution on the horizon though, so I would suggest reconsidering the diplomatic option.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
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Flanderlion
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Postby Flanderlion » Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:54 pm

There is no need for a technical solution at present. It's a moderation issue, and they already have the tools to puppet sweep. 1k nations is excessive, but a few players are over that, so clearing them when they have 2k+ is the sensible thing to do.

Wherever the nations are located, it still causes extra bloat on the servers for no benefit to the game. Re condemns etc. - that's an (ineffective) IC response for an OOC issue.
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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:20 pm

Flanderlion wrote: Re condemns etc. - that's an (ineffective) IC response for an OOC issue.


Well, if you cannot convince moderation that it's an OOC issue, you've got one route left: IC. When you eliminate the impossible, what remains - how ever unlikely - becomes your best option. Just something to keep in mind if the conversation with NS Moderation doesn't go the way you want it to go.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008 | Former Delegate of TRR | Gameplay Alignment: -18 / -13
Unibotian Factbook // Collected works // The Gameplay Alignment Test //
Proudly Authored 9 GA Res., 14 SC Res. // Commended by SC#78

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Jar Wattinree
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Postby Jar Wattinree » Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:18 pm

Unibot III wrote:
Flanderlion wrote: Re condemns etc. - that's an (ineffective) IC response for an OOC issue.


Well, if you cannot convince moderation that it's an OOC issue, you've got one route left: IC. When you eliminate the impossible, what remains - how ever unlikely - becomes your best option. Just something to keep in mind if the conversation with NS Moderation doesn't go the way you want it to go.

It'd be the equivalent of a nation IRL complaining there are other nations with too many people. Ineffectual, looks silly, and you get laughed at.

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Parhe
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Chicken Overlords and game health

Postby Parhe » Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:07 pm

Flanderlion wrote:There is no need for a technical solution at present. It's a moderation issue, and they already have the tools to puppet sweep. 1k nations is excessive, but a few players are over that, so clearing them when they have 2k+ is the sensible thing to do.

Wherever the nations are located, it still causes extra bloat on the servers for no benefit to the game. Re condemns etc. - that's an (ineffective) IC response for an OOC issue.

Except it isn't. It isn't against the rules and staff have never even hinted to the idea. You may disagree, but you are still in the phase of trying to convince people that having puppets should be a rule violation, at which you are failing. Only one person, who is also not staff seems at all inclined to agree with you.

If the issue is excess bloat alone, then just remove all puppets, because they all fit under your definition of bloat. Or maybe make it so every existing nation has to purchase Supporter/Postmaster.
Hey, it is Parhe :D I am always open to telegrams.
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Fauzjhia
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Postby Fauzjhia » Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:19 pm

Parhe wrote:
Flanderlion wrote:There is no need for a technical solution at present. It's a moderation issue, and they already have the tools to puppet sweep. 1k nations is excessive, but a few players are over that, so clearing them when they have 2k+ is the sensible thing to do.

Wherever the nations are located, it still causes extra bloat on the servers for no benefit to the game. Re condemns etc. - that's an (ineffective) IC response for an OOC issue.

Except it isn't. It isn't against the rules and staff have never even hinted to the idea. You may disagree, but you are still in the phase of trying to convince people that having puppets should be a rule violation, at which you are failing. Only one person, who is also not staff seems at all inclined to agree with you.

If the issue is excess bloat alone, then just remove all puppets, because they all fit under your definition of bloat. Or maybe make it so every existing nation has to purchase Supporter/Postmaster.



I read that he believe that having over 1000 puppets is too much, not that all puppets are illegal.
you sure you don't just misread him.
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Support : non-corrupt state, human rights, women rights, wild life protection, banning fossil fuel, cooperatives, journalists, Radio-Canada, Télé-Quebec, public media, public service, nationalization, freedom and right to be informed, Quebec's Independence, Protection of the French Language, Immigration right and integration.
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Parhe
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Chicken Overlords and game health

Postby Parhe » Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:23 pm

Fauzjhia wrote:
Parhe wrote:Except it isn't. It isn't against the rules and staff have never even hinted to the idea. You may disagree, but you are still in the phase of trying to convince people that having puppets should be a rule violation, at which you are failing. Only one person, who is also not staff seems at all inclined to agree with you.

If the issue is excess bloat alone, then just remove all puppets, because they all fit under your definition of bloat. Or maybe make it so every existing nation has to purchase Supporter/Postmaster.



I read that he believe that having over 1000 puppets is too much, not that all puppets are illegal.
you sure you don't just misread him.

Possibly. What I figured was that having over a thousand puppets is too much and, as a result, is currently a moderation issue. But I don't think it could be said it is since, at the moment, it isn't a violation of any rule and is something that the staff has acknowledged and been fine with for at least a decade. I guess I disagree with him in the words only-I think something only qualifies as a moderation issue once it becomes a violation of the rules or "illegal."
Hey, it is Parhe :D I am always open to telegrams.
I know it is a Work-In-Progress, but I would love it if y'all looked at my new factbook and gave me some feedback!

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Thatun t
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Founded: Jul 14, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby Thatun t » Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:18 am

I think it is better to close chicken overloads

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