Removing the necessity for Card Farms

[Flanderlion]

I am hesitantly for the moving of "fast card generation" to something resembling the best nation game while keeping a "slow / introductory card generation" method with issues and/or wa proposals.

I think wrt the best nation game there are many kinks to work out, ones I can think of include:

1. How long does a "season" last? This is not about seasons of cards, but about how long until a best nation is crowned and this thing starts again? One of the criticisms of the cards game (which was an april fools event turned into a permanent part of the game) is that new nations do not show up. There are many card traders who joined or rejoined the game after season 2 of cards began and do not have a card to identify their nation. Each new season should take the currently existing nations from when the season begins so newer players can be apart of this.
My hesitant answer would be that a month is a decent idea for how long a season lasts, but I can see how some might prefer a longer time frame or if each season has large impacts on site resources to prepare.

2. Removing CTE nations from the event? Part of the OP is about how this "Best Nation" event was no fun because of all the puppets. With the change being to have many of these puppets no longer be required, should these puppets be removed from the "Best Nation" as they cte (this is particularly important if each "season" is to be a longer time frame).
This seems a no-brainer yes, but idk if it has been mentioned yet.

I'm sure there's more, I may even add some later, but time draws me elsewhere so here is this for now.

Also CANS for pull events sounds like a great idea, if winning a round gave you the card that would be nuts and amazing!

This is essentially my thinking now, just the BN thing needs to be much better/infinite packs on a nation than issues so big farmers use the BN because it'd be dumb not to. Having the issue frequency of packs decreased to 0.05 per issue and giving one per WA resolution puts the average player ahead every 4 days (2.4 vs 2.8 packs every 4 days). While giving 0.15 per comparison, so approx 540 packs an hour compared to the current 400+ packs an hour farming gives. I was surprised about the numbers, so please double check that the 400+ is accurate with farming.

I think store the data of the nation so the position isn't lost on CTE e.g. total votes for and total votes, but when a new nation is founded/refounded it is added to the pool of comparisons, and removed on CTE (and removed from leaderboards like other stats).

Re pull events etc. - agreed they're not ideal from a cards pov, but they also are great for making cards more multiplayer with cooperative events. So like, I'm all for removing personally but this suggestion is about leaving it as is, as the change is less about changing cards and more about removing barriers to entry/stopping negative effects on the rest of the game.

Edit: Forgot to add in comparative stats

[Fauzjhia]

better/infinite packs .,

do you want to create farming nations and have farmer who will their entire DAYS on NS, clicking best nations to generate infinite packs ???

Edit ; just morally, we should not encourage that.

[Flanderlion]

better/infinite packs .,

do you want to create farming nations and have farmer who will their entire DAYS, clicking best nations to generate infinite packs ???

There is no difference to the present. Just right now they use many nations (with the associated problems) and ruin issue stats, while with this they won't be hurting others by doing it. The only practical limit now (and with this suggestion) is the time a player wants to put in.

[Luna Amore]

better/infinite packs .,

do you want to create farming nations and have farmer who will their entire DAYS on NS, clicking best nations to generate infinite packs ???

Edit ; just morally, we should not encourage that.

That’s beyond our scope in my opinion. We can’t control if someone wants to sink hours into a game. It’s certainly not encouraging you to do so.

[Fauzjhia]

better/infinite packs .,

do you want to create farming nations and have farmer who will their entire DAYS, clicking best nations to generate infinite packs ???

There is no difference to the present. Just right now they use many nations (with the associated problems) and ruin issue stats, while with this they won't be hurting others by doing it. The only practical limit now (and with this suggestion) is the time a player wants to put in.

My comprehension is that you want to change the game, to make it easier for big farmers.
the logic I read from topic are this : the rules are not working, they are not limiting the big farmers. so remove the rules. and, let me have farming nations, and farm as many nations as the guy with 1000 nations.

don't be surprised that I am opposed to this

Yes I HATE the farming nations too. I dislike card farmer 3034, gio farm 77, nsc222, and any number puppets. I dislike those.

[Flanderlion]

There is no difference to the present. Just right now they use many nations (with the associated problems) and ruin issue stats, while with this they won't be hurting others by doing it. The only practical limit now (and with this suggestion) is the time a player wants to put in.

My comprehension is that you want to change the game, to make it easier for big farmers.
the logic I read from topic are this : the rules are not working, they are not limiting the big farmers. so remove the rules. and, let me have farming nations, and farm as many nations as the guy with 1000 nations.

don't be surprised that I am opposed to this

Yes I HATE the farming nations too. I dislike card farmer 3034, gio farm 77, nsc222, and any number puppets. I dislike those.

I have a preference for Codger's idea, hence why I reposted it, but what is your suggestion for solving the puppet bloat/issue stat problems?

I'm not a big card farmer, so it's not my place to go in and change how they play. I play cards on only this nation with my 0.6 packs a day. So my aim with this is leaving cards essentially unchanged, while removing the negative bits that hurt other areas of the game.

[Lord Dominator]

If anything, a single button as such enables the average player to more effectively compete - since the technical abilities needed for speed are removed, leaving purely at willingness to spend a given amount of time (and internet connection speed I guess).

[The Unified Missourtama States]

One problem not yet posted is with deck capacity rules. If the deck capacity rules are kept the same as current then people will still make puppets because they will not be able to open packs on their main, however, if we change the deck capacity rules then we will have other new problems.

[Fauzjhia]

One problem not yet posted is with deck capacity rules. If the deck capacity rules are kept the same as current then people will still make puppets because they will not be able to open packs on their main, however, if we change the deck capacity rules then we will have other new problems.

except this threat and codger's is all about (DOWN With damn puppets. )

Obvious, since it would be so fast to farm 50 cards, that will the creation of many cards storage puppets, (that do not answer issues) as well as global depreciation of card's value.

And there was a reason why deck capacity was made...

[Trivalve]

I actually kinda agree with what your saying. Also I hate going in to challenges and seeing the name 40 times just with different numbers. I want to vs different people not womble everytime. I think you are definitely onto something! I congratulate you.

[Fauzjhia]

I actually kinda agree with what your saying. Also I hate going in to challenges and seeing the name 40 times just with different numbers. I want to vs different people not womble everytime. I think you are definitely onto something! I congratulate you.

we all dislike that.

[Benevolent 1]

If anything, a single button as such enables the average player to more effectively compete - since the technical abilities needed for speed are removed, leaving purely at willingness to spend a given amount of time (and internet connection speed I guess).

The no cards button could be repurposed.

In this scenario each player's account is allowed a maximum number of card drawing puppets. All other puppets will be disabled from drawing cards. The button (in settings) enables a portion of their puppets to draw cards. These same puppets will be featured on cards. This reduces the excess in puppet cards and the excess in number of daily draws simultaneously. Plus it evens the playing field.

I'd suppose technical, Fris and the admins will decide what the maximum number of enabled card drawing puppets is to be per account. The button will need to become operative before S3 releases as to allow a period of time for players to make their choices. Since most players do not have large card farms they will not have to make any choices.

I don't know what the number of card enabled puppets would be and I am not going to guess.

[Fauzjhia]

If anything, a single button as such enables the average player to more effectively compete - since the technical abilities needed for speed are removed, leaving purely at willingness to spend a given amount of time (and internet connection speed I guess).

The no cards button could be repurposed.

In this scenario each player's account is allowed a maximum number of card drawing puppets. All other puppets will be disabled from drawing cards. The button (in settings) enables a portion of their puppets to draw cards. These same puppets will be featured on cards. This reduces the excess in puppet cards and the excess in number of daily draws simultaneously. Plus it evens the playing field.

I'd suppose technical, Fris and the admins will decide what the maximum number of enabled card drawing puppets is to be per account. The button will need to become operative before S3 releases as to allow a period of time for players to make their choices. Since most players do not have large card farms they will not have to make any choices.

I don't know what the number of card enabled puppets would be and I am not going to guess.

As long as I can have the pleasure of collecting my puppet's cards, I have no problem with that. I just the limit is not someone extremely restrictive.
if its too restrictive or too permissives, it will both have an effect on the cards market.
Ideally, I would like something like 700 or 600 limit. because that would allow me to keep TRR cards lottery alive as well as my anti-flipping program,

although, this mean, More moderation.

[Benevolent 1]

The no cards button could be repurposed.

In this scenario each player's account is allowed a maximum number of card drawing puppets. All other puppets will be disabled from drawing cards. The button (in settings) enables a portion of their puppets to draw cards. These same puppets will be featured on cards. This reduces the excess in puppet cards and the excess in number of daily draws simultaneously. Plus it evens the playing field.

I'd suppose technical, Fris and the admins will decide what the maximum number of enabled card drawing puppets is to be per account. The button will need to become operative before S3 releases as to allow a period of time for players to make their choices. Since most players do not have large card farms they will not have to make any choices.

I don't know what the number of card enabled puppets would be and I am not going to guess.

As long as I can have the pleasure of collecting my puppet's cards, I have no problem with that. I just the limit is not someone extremely restrictive.
if its too restrictive or too permissives, it will both have an effect on the cards market.
Ideally, I would like something like 700 or 600 limit. because that would allow me to keep TRR cards lottery alive as well as my anti-flipping program,

although, this mean, More moderation.

I feel confident those folks charged with deciding this max number will choose after giving the matter much thought and discussion.

Try and stop worrying so much about your own stuff and learn to love the idea of a change for the positive. Not only for the betterment of the card game, but for NationStates itself. It can happen, so please relax and let it.

[Frisbeeteria]

I'd suppose technical, Fris and the admins will decide what the maximum number of enabled card drawing puppets is to be per account.

Nice idea, but we don't have 'accounts'. While we have tools to help us identify puppets and puppetmasters, we don't actively track who owns what. Adding that feature has been discussed, but it's a whole lot more complex than just this issue suggests.

[Benevolent 1]

I'd suppose technical, Fris and the admins will decide what the maximum number of enabled card drawing puppets is to be per account.

Nice idea, but we don't have 'accounts'. While we have tools to help us identify puppets and puppetmasters, we don't actively track who owns what. Adding that feature has been discussed, but it's a whole lot more complex than just this issue suggests.

*nods affirmatively, stares off into space*

I was naturally unaware of these limitations.

*walks over to drawing board with fresh eraser*

Thanks for providing your insight on the matter.

[Bears Armed]

There is no difference to the present. Just right now they use many nations (with the associated problems) and ruin issue stats, while with this they won't be hurting others by doing it. "wants to The only practical limit now (and with this suggestion) is the time a player wants to put in.

"wants to put in" =/= "is able to put in"
And non -famers who can't put in ten times as much time receiving cards at only one-tenth of the previous frequency is a difference.

[Flanderlion]

There is no difference to the present. Just right now they use many nations (with the associated problems) and ruin issue stats, while with this they won't be hurting others by doing it. "wants to The only practical limit now (and with this suggestion) is the time a player wants to put in.

"wants to put in" =/= "is able to put in"
And non -famers who can't put in ten times as much time receiving cards at only one-tenth of the previous frequency is a difference.

Good points, highlighted slightly earlier with somewhat of a solution. Keeping issues generating packs (but decreasing the spawn rate slightly) while giving packs for WA votes, and ensuring the BN is still the superior option to using issues. I reworked OP, but essentially as long as a player has a WA nation, they would now be better off rather than before, where it would improve farming at the detriment of normal players. Having the issue frequency of packs decreased to 0.05 per issue and giving one per WA resolution puts the average player ahead every 4 days (2.4 vs 2.8 packs every 4 days).

[Land Without Shrimp]

better/infinite packs .,

do you want to create farming nations and have farmer who will their entire DAYS on NS, clicking best nations to generate infinite packs ???

Edit ; just morally, we should not encourage that.

Honestly I kinda agree with that edit. It seems we are ok with people becoming "junkies" as it were, generating as many cards as possible. Pull events, massive inflation, all of this...card game isn't fun anymore and everyone knows it and no one wants to be left behind. Is it a bad thing to actually limit the amount of cards drawn and slow the game down? I appreciate that cards are tied to issues but card-farming isn't a thing that should be encouraged, in my opinion. Unless maybe this is what the admins want? Early days, cards was fun because there was a limited pool of cards and manipulation of market was much more difficult. Now...savvy players can get pretty much any card they want while casual/new players are going to be out in the cold.

I still think the best idea is to tag the ability to draw a pack from issue answering to nations that are WA-nations only (and must be in the WA for at least a day or so - not sure what time is best). This has the obvious drawback of affecting military gameplayers, but it will stop the inflation of the card market in its tracks as well as removing incentive for puppet-farms.

I think we should move towards less cards being generated, not more. Then the game becomes a community game again and not a game that encourages an addict's behaviour.

[Fauzjhia]

better/infinite packs .,

do you want to create farming nations and have farmer who will their entire DAYS on NS, clicking best nations to generate infinite packs ???

Edit ; just morally, we should not encourage that.

Honestly I kinda agree with that edit. It seems we are ok with people becoming "junkies" as it were, generating as many cards as possible. Pull events, massive inflation, all of this...card game isn't fun anymore and everyone knows it and no one wants to be left behind. Is it a bad thing to actually limit the amount of cards drawn and slow the game down? I appreciate that cards are tied to issues but card-farming isn't a thing that should be encouraged, in my opinion. Unless maybe this is what the admins want? Early days, cards was fun because there was a limited pool of cards and manipulation of market was much more difficult. Now...savvy players can get pretty much any card they want while casual/new players are going to be out in the cold.

I still think the best idea is to tag the ability to draw a pack from issue answering to nations that are WA-nations only (and must be in the WA for at least a day or so - not sure what time is best). This has the obvious drawback of affecting military gameplayers, but it will stop the inflation of the card market in its tracks as well as removing incentive for puppet-farms.

I think we should move towards less cards being generated, not more. Then the game becomes a community game again and not a game that encourages an addict's behaviour.

the problem is that its not that simple.
even limiting the cards game to only wa nation, only make it harder for most people. it might even kill the game
if the restriction is too low. you can think people will just place a nation in the WA for a day, boom, they can receive cards, (well I know I would' I'm perfectionism)

TACLS was never balanced. if we remove it. Farmers are going to take profits from the system to transfer bank easily to their main, accumulating massive amount of wealth, I know this, I do some regular transfers, (if you call 20 days regular) and since tacls was nerfed, a very low number of my transfer are ever heisted, so I am only imagine how the danger is at all time low for everyone else. (only my 1 bank transfer during morning can ever be intercepted. funny because I do those to be able to gift legendary to others. )

I think a start is to get rid of that script. you will that if they must twice the times to answer the same number of the issues, farmers will make less cards.

[Bawkie]

There are many issues at hand with the card game right now, many I see being discussed at length within the community. TCALS/pull events and inflation are issues deserving of discussion their own threads, and I encourage the community to discuss publicly in the forums more so than within the community on discord for example.

Firstly, I believe the use of card farms should be tackled, and the discussed alteration of how card packs are generated would be beneficial in many ways. I don't believe it would be fair to restrict packs to WA members only, as there are many reasons why one would not want their nation to be a member of the WA, and this would put them at an unfair disadvantage.

It has been suggested in this thread that the best nation game is used to generate packs. This may be a potential solution, as long as you can still generate packs at a reasonable but not excessive rate. If this can be done unlimited times, it would eliminate the need for farming puppets, so I can agree with this.

The next problem is space. Pack limits will exist for the reason of server space, which is reasonable. The question is if deck capacity costs will need to be reworked in order to adjust for less accounts generating cards than usual. Otherwise people will just farm on many accounts as present. If one has the incentive to only farm on as few accounts as possible, this may be beneficial for technical purposes. But whatever way you work it, there will always be server space limitations.

I agree that issue answering was far from the ideal implementation, and it may not have been possible to foresee how large of a scale card farming would become years later. Others here clearly care about the trading cards game, as I do. Input from the community can hopefully improve apparent issues.

[Card Drunk]

>snip<

I think we should move towards less cards being generated, not more. Then the game becomes a community game again and not a game that encourages an addict's behaviour.

i'll drink to that!

Poll ---> https://www.nationstates.net/region=ns_ ... lid_176454

[Land Without Shrimp]

Firstly, I believe the use of card farms should be tackled, and the discussed alteration of how card packs are generated would be beneficial in many ways. I don't believe it would be fair to restrict packs to WA members only, as there are many reasons why one would not want their nation to be a member of the WA, and this would put them at an unfair disadvantage.

To address this concern, let me state firstly that I am fully aware that tying pack generation to being a WA member is not a perfect solution! But I do believe it is a solution. If someone doesn't like the idea of the WA affecting their main, they can always use a WA puppet (one! puppet!) to draw cards.

From my perspective, there's some fundamental questions that we need to answer around cards:

1) Do we think unlimited card drawing is a good thing?
2) Do we think puppet card farming is a good thing?
3) Do we think the card game as it currently stands is something a newcomer would enjoy?

I think the answer to all 3 questions is no. It seems from the discussion so far that many people think the answer to question 1 is yes, hence the desire to tie pack generation to something such as the "Best Nations" game, which can then generate *more* cards.

I would argue this is the last thing we want to do. Besides driving the card game to a model that rewards clicks and time with shiny bank (i.e., addictive and harmful feedback cycle), an increased pack generation rate will just further inflate the card economy to unsustainable levels.

So that was why I thought a possible solution was to drive pack generation to WA-status. That is something that wouldn't add additional burden to admin and hopefully not be too much of a technical challenge. Yes, it would mean those active in S1 and S2 have an advantage to new players, but at least it would be a fresh start for S3 and over time the card game would actually be a fun
casual game again, not a game of puppets and manipulation of mechanics.

[Luna Amore]

Wouldn't tying it to WA status just make Card Farmers start switching the same way raiders do? Sure, it would be slower than current, but I'm sure farmers would work out a system soon enough.

[Galiantus III]

I'm not attached to any particular solution here, but it would be really easy to prevent R/D style WA switching if the nation has to be in the WA for a minimum period of time to get cards. This wouldn't totally eliminate card farming as a strategy, but it would definitely place a hard limit on how large a card farm could be and still be effective. If the time was particularly restrictive, card packs could also be given at a higher rate, or even a 100% chance, which might help a lot of new players enjoy the cards more.

Edit: Also, to address the concerns about existing WA members who don't want to resign not having the deck space to open packs, or players who don't want to join the WA with their main: that can easily be fixed if card packs can be transferred from one nation to another. The end result is all cards are generated by a nation in the WA, and other nations just serve as extra inventory space.