Removing the necessity for Card Farms

[Toerana]

Collecting numbered nations are kind of cool. Gives me a feeling of success once I finally finish a collection. Also, I mean, nobody told you that you had to participate in large-scale card farming- I mean, I have a computer that could probably handle it but I still keep my card farm at around 20 puppets.

Maybe we could create a rarity for nations that have barely any stat badges (usually what puppets are), like if you have less than 4 stat badges then you get the "trash" rarity and the JV and base MV are 0.00.

That wouldn't solve the problem of an awful lot of meaningless cards - they'd still be pulled except the pulled cards would be worth than useless.

Any attempt to filter out "puppets" would be flawed as it would catch actual players.

I love this idea in principle, I'm not sold to it being tied to "Best Nation" (given again people would click exclusively 1 option, whichever is easiest) but removing hard timers (timers more than a few seconds) would go a very long way to solve some of the issues widespread card farming has brought.

Puppets would still exist, alongside large puppet collection as there are always going to be people who enjoy answering lots of issues the "normal" way, R/Ders would have switcher sets etc, but it would remove the necessity of lots of puppets to play cards at a "high" level.

[Refuge Isle]

Okay, let me see... so, we're taking cards and untying it from issues, and then reconnecting it with a shitty april fools game (No offense to the devs, but it wasn't really that good)?

It wasn't a good event because admin appears to have been caught off guard by there being dramatically more puppets on the site than realised. A huge bulk of these puppets exist for card farming purposes and would likely not exist with different mechanics on card-creation.

This was addressed in the OP.

Also, it's really primitive but couldn't you just setup a bunch of containers and bypass the throttle as suggested by Python?

The best solution is to not have a throttle, so there would be no advantage to using multiple puppets over one puppet. One human can still only farm and clear cards at the rate of one human.

Also im gonna be honest this screams "I don't want to setup Got Issues and let it run in the background for an hour, so I'm going to ruin it for everyone else."

This...is not how restricted actions work. If you have an script that automatically processes your nations in the background with no human input required from you, that does not follow the 1:1 rule and is an illegal process.

Now I might support this if it wasn't tied to the lazy april fools game.

Out of curiosity, if the status quo is currently pressing enter on a page that doesn't remotely look like the site and doesn't take into account the actual content of the issue being answered, what is lost by moving to the best nation system?

And who cares if S3 is flooded with puppets? So is S2. That's why we have pull events, and giveaways, and card lotteries. Participate in one of those!

Also, I mean, nobody told you that you had to participate in large-scale card farming- I mean, I have a computer that could probably handle it but I still keep my card farm at around 20 puppets.

This proposal is aimed at reducing nation bloat and server load by separating card creating from the most taxing functions on NationStates (processing fifty stat changes on hundreds of nations for each active card farmer). Regardless of who "told" someone to do, this is the paradigm and one of the reasons that there are a good 60-70 thousand nations over what there were two years ago. All of whom are incentivised to supply issue editors with junk data on player answer tendencies.

Changes to game mechanics need to take into consideration the general health of the site and the benefit of the player experience and not just what individual computers are able to handle. Laissez faire administration does eventually lead to situations that require intervention at a certain threshold, and the over-abundance of these 60-70 thousand puppets are in that category of intervention necessity.

[Flanderlion]

Just leave the puppets alone. They did nothing wrong.

This isn't stopping you having puppets. It is stopping the necessity for others to have them. If you've got 1000 puppets, you can keep them as is with or without this change.

--

Refuge Isle covered my response to Doge, but the reason Best Nation game is more because I don't think it got a proper shot because of puppets, and it's a little more interesting than just clicking a button. That said, it is essentially the same as clicking a button for packs, I just felt that's a boring IC reason to gain them.

[SherpDaWerp]

this entire solution gets nuked once that guy asks for a private command to do these best nation answers

I have faith admin would be more intelligent than to nuke this into the ground by allowing it to be automated. API-answered issues don't generate cards for a reason, and admin don't just make any random API shard after someone asks for it.

Also im gonna be honest this screams "I don't want to setup Got Issues and let it run in the background for an hour, so I'm going to ruin it for everyone else."

This...is not how restricted actions work. If you have an script that automatically processes your nations in the background with no human input required from you, that does not follow the 1:1 rule and is an illegal process.

The Got Issues script Doge refers to has been the subject of a lot (some might say too much) discussion w/r/t legality, and the end result, IIRC, was that it's basically harmful to the site but still legal. (by increasing the speed of issue-stat-calculations, removing/reducing the ad-revenue per page load, and leading more people to create more puppets thanks to easier management) Is this a beneficial result for anyone? Nope.

Refuge Isle covered my response to Doge, but the reason Best Nation game is more because I don't think it got a proper shot because of puppets, and it's a little more interesting than just clicking a button. That said, it is essentially the same as clicking a button for packs, I just felt that's a boring IC reason to gain them.

Yeah, this. Got Issues reduces the entire card farming process to nigh-unreadable unstyled issue pages and a script-generated page full of black-and-white buttons. It's efficient, sure, but I don't think any card farmer using it has any license to complain about "mindlessly clicking buttons".

EDIT: Also, everyone saying that the Best Nation game is easily automatable or whatever? There's nothing stopping admin from prohibiting scripts from interacting with it, adding a captcha, or forcing scripts to choose randomly. It was easily automatable when it was here, but if it comes back, nothing says it still has to be.

[Haganham]

. Maybe this could be tied to something else; I remember there was one suggestion from I think it was the cards discord server where someone said you have a chance of getting a pack of cards when you open a NS page. Now that would get rid of puppets.

I really like this idea. Forget making loads of puppets, grinding something you don't care about. Just play NS and get cards.

[Galiantus III]

I remember there was one suggestion from I think it was the cards discord server where someone said you have a chance of getting a pack of cards when you open a NS page. Now that would get rid of puppets.

That idea is worth considering. It would certainly be nice if people could both answer issues and play the best nation game because they want to, rather than as a means to an end in a totally different game. The important question is do we want card farming to mean hitting "refresh" over and over. Because that's what it would turn into.

[Haganham]

I remember there was one suggestion from I think it was the cards discord server where someone said you have a chance of getting a pack of cards when you open a NS page. Now that would get rid of puppets.

That idea is worth considering. It would certainly be nice if people could both answer issues and play the best nation game because they want to, rather than as a means to an end in a totally different game. The important question is do we want card farming to mean hitting "refresh" over and over. Because that's what it would turn into.

If it were simply a roll of the dice that's true. Maybe if it were a sort of blind scavenger hunt, like there's a number of pages that can produce cards, and they change when you hit one, or if you don't hit one at a regular interval. I'm not sure how it might work exactly(and I guess it should be secret), but something like that would disincentives just spamming one thing. Of course then people might just cycle thorough many things.

Then again maybe this is a nirvana fallacy. In the end is hitting refresh over and over that different from what we have now?

[Sedgistan]

I like the intent of the idea, and would really love to see the puppet bloat reduced and Issues Editor stats become useful again.

Where this idea needs more thought at present is the casual player angle. Issues are the core part of the game mechanics, and thus every new player, and large numbers of casual players, answer them regularly. As well as stats changes, they get another reward for taking part in this core area of the game - generating card packs, and potentially finding interest in Cards, whether as a casual collector or becoming drawn into becoming a hardcore card addict. Collecting/trading small numbers of cards can be just as rewarding (if not more so) than being one of the thousand-puppet barely-discernible-from-a-script addicts this change focuses on.

How are casual players going to find the Best Nation game? Is it enjoyable/interesting/varied enough for them to actually play it long-term so that they generate cards? Or is this going to limit Cards involvement to the true addicts, cutting out the casual/potential new collectors?

[Flanderlion]

I like the intent of the idea, and would really love to see the puppet bloat reduced and Issues Editor stats become useful again.

Where this idea needs more thought at present is the casual player angle. Issues are the core part of the game mechanics, and thus every new player, and large numbers of casual players, answer them regularly. As well as stats changes, they get another reward for taking part in this core area of the game - generating card packs, and potentially finding interest in Cards, whether as a casual collector or becoming drawn into becoming a hardcore card addict. Collecting/trading small numbers of cards can be just as rewarding (if not more so) than being one of the thousand-puppet barely-discernible-from-a-script addicts this change focuses on.

How are casual players going to find the Best Nation game? Is it enjoyable/interesting/varied enough for them to actually play it long-term so that they generate cards? Or is this going to limit Cards involvement to the true addicts, cutting out the casual/potential new collectors?

I mean, this would still function without decoupling issues from cards, if the rate of gathering packs was significantly better to use the Best Nation game.

I think a better option would be giving a dedicated pack for every voter at the end of each resolution (has to be valid votes at the end, as otherwise it'd just encourage rapid switching to gain packs). 'Resolution 2784 has passed: "Liberate the Pacific". You have been gifted a valuable crate of artworks for your valued contribution to the resolution at vote.' That said, cards are covered in both the help page, and hopefully in whatever tutorial/revamp of the welcome TG NS decides to do eventually.

[The Blaatschapen]

I like the intent of the idea, and would really love to see the puppet bloat reduced and Issues Editor stats become useful again.

Where this idea needs more thought at present is the casual player angle. Issues are the core part of the game mechanics, and thus every new player, and large numbers of casual players, answer them regularly. As well as stats changes, they get another reward for taking part in this core area of the game - generating card packs, and potentially finding interest in Cards, whether as a casual collector or becoming drawn into becoming a hardcore card addict. Collecting/trading small numbers of cards can be just as rewarding (if not more so) than being one of the thousand-puppet barely-discernible-from-a-script addicts this change focuses on.

How are casual players going to find the Best Nation game? Is it enjoyable/interesting/varied enough for them to actually play it long-term so that they generate cards? Or is this going to limit Cards involvement to the true addicts, cutting out the casual/potential new collectors?

I mean, this would still function without decoupling issues from cards, if the rate of gathering packs was significantly better to use the Best Nation game.

I think a better option would be giving a dedicated pack for every voter at the end of each resolution (has to be valid votes at the end, as otherwise it'd just encourage rapid switching to gain packs). 'Resolution 2784 has passed: "Liberate the Pacific". You have been gifted a valuable crate of artworks for your valued contribution to the resolution at vote.' That said, cards are covered in both the help page, and hopefully in whatever tutorial/revamp of the welcome TG NS decides to do eventually.

This will ensure that the WA (only ga? SC?) always has something to vote upon.

Crappy, but legal, proposals will be queued. And then voted down since they're genuinely crappy. (I assume that not passing the resolution also gives the same reward, otherwise we're opening another can of worms).

The SC currently has nothing to vote. So there's indeed space for more votes

But I'm sure that pure card farmers will spread around their WAs into pairs of two(to gain delegate powers) in self created regions just to get resolutions to the floor.

I am hypothesizing here, so maybe things go different. The main question is, if this effect would be wanted? What will be drawbacks (eg. Not getting a timely liberation voted on, because we still have some trivial Declarations to vote down) .

[Flanderlion]

I mean, this would still function without decoupling issues from cards, if the rate of gathering packs was significantly better to use the Best Nation game.

I think a better option would be giving a dedicated pack for every voter at the end of each resolution (has to be valid votes at the end, as otherwise it'd just encourage rapid switching to gain packs). 'Resolution 2784 has passed: "Liberate the Pacific". You have been gifted a valuable crate of artworks for your valued contribution to the resolution at vote.' That said, cards are covered in both the help page, and hopefully in whatever tutorial/revamp of the welcome TG NS decides to do eventually.

This will ensure that the WA (only ga? SC?) always has something to vote upon.

Crappy, but legal, proposals will be queued. And then voted down since they're genuinely crappy. (I assume that not passing the resolution also gives the same reward, otherwise we're opening another can of worms).

The SC currently has nothing to vote. So there's indeed space for more votes

But I'm sure that pure card farmers will spread around their WAs into pairs of two(to gain delegate powers) in self created regions just to get resolutions to the floor.

I am hypothesizing here, so maybe things go different. The main question is, if this effect would be wanted? What will be drawbacks (eg. Not getting a timely liberation voted on, because we still have some trivial Declarations to vote down) .

I mean, we'd hopefully have SecGen reordering for ensuring a timely resolution, if they even got to vote (counter campaigning and delegate tipping is a lot more advanced now). Also, I'm not actually sure card farmers would care, as the effort to support resolutions/move their WA etc. could be spent on generating cards the intended way, and they'd gain far more packs than a single extra pack. The number of pure card farmers isn't actually that high, just the effects of their farming/number of nations/their dominance of cards makes the number seem greater. I doubt there would be 106 dedicated pure card farmers that would be coordinated enough to push a resolution to vote - although a smaller number could push an existing resolution that wasn't going to meet quorum to quorum. If that happened (and I don't actually think it will regularly), help/support getting authors resolution to the WA is something the WA could do with, as there is a lot of gate-keeping of what delegates think WA voters should see.

[The Free Joy State]

I really like the idea of issue stats becoming useful again.

However, I echo Sedge's musing about the effect this could have on the players who enjoy card collecting (especially the more casual collectors who wish to cultivate a collection, but do not have the huge farms this aims to tackle). Answering issues is an enjoyable activity, with varied topics and they are easily accessible; new players then may discover the cards through the issues and find another part of the game they enjoy. In my opinion, the Best Nations game doesn't have that same variety, and I wonder how many card players will keep playing.

What would be ideal -- IMO -- is if it were technically possible to check a "Generate Cards" box in Settings to chance of getting a cards automatically as you spend time tootling around interacting with the site; sort of when you submit a post, you may get a notification on your flag "You Have Received Cards". Doubt that it is (I could very easily be wrong), but something like that would encourage interaction with the site on one nation and decouple cards from the issue stats.

[Durm]

Making cards WA only would be a bad idea. It would make raiders and defenders unable to get cards.

Getting cards when posting RMB/forum posts would just make people spam.

Both the Best Nation game and issues giving cards at the same time sounds like the best idea.

[The Free Joy State]

Getting cards when posting RMB/forum posts would just make people spam.

That wasn't what I was suggesting at all.

I am not Technical (I have no idea how feasible this is), but I was suggesting that it could be tied to the duration you spend on the site on one nation -- doing what you enjoy doing (making dispatches, posting on the forums, RP). When you interact with the site (doing anything that can't be automated), you may receive cards. No more than the current limit on packs. This would not involve any additional actions (unlike the issues, you wouldn't get a reward for rapidity or puppetry).

Both the Best Nation game and issues giving cards at the same time sounds like the best idea.

No, it really doesn't. Whatever happens, they must be decoupled from issue stats. That is one area where I truly do agree with the OP.

[StarArmy]

OP's proposal sounds great.

It might also be possible to give people small amounts of bank for posting on the forum too, or other behaviors they do that keep the site active and alive.

[Lord Dominator]

Alternatively, keep the issues angle, but create whatever kind of much higher speed button for the dedicated farmers - they’d still have no reason to use hundreds to thousands of nations for the most part, but more casual players would still get some.

I do like the idea of a free card pack if you voted on a WA thing once voting ended though.

[StarArmy]

I do like the idea of a free card pack if you voted on a WA thing once voting ended though.

Some of us choose not to join the WA and this would exclude us.

[The H Corporation]

I do like the idea of a free card pack if you voted on a WA thing once voting ended though.

Some of us choose not to join the WA and this would exclude us.

Agreed. That is a really stupid idea in my opinion

[Lord Dominator]

I suggest/second someone else’s proposal principally as an addition to the existing or possible spawn methods, not as the sole one.

[Fauzjhia]

I don't really have time to write a detail answer and careful analysis.
For now all I say, is that it should be easier to be a (BIG FARMER)

Big farms are used to bypass the game limitations on card generations, and it should not be even easier to farm more cards then right now.

Nationstates should not encouraged players to waste their entire days on the net to become (competitive) and actually.

I already said I was against Codger Idea, and I am against this IDEA

yeah I FIND some card farmers nation ugly, and undesirable. but I do collect my own cards.

[The Python]

I do like the idea of a free card pack if you voted on a WA thing once voting ended though.

Ew, absolutely not. This would exclude non-WA'ers and also would make hosting pull events way harder.

[Lord Dominator]

I do like the idea of a free card pack if you voted on a WA thing once voting ended though.

Ew, absolutely not. This would exclude non-WA'ers and also would make hosting pull events way harder.

I suggest/second someone else’s proposal principally as an addition to the existing or possible spawn methods, not as the sole one.

[Frisbeeteria]

would make hosting pull events way harder.

Pull events exist only because of a flaw in the card-spawning mechanic. They need to go away. Yes, I've taken advantage of them, but no, I would not miss them.

~Frisbeeteria the Card Trader (not the moderator)

[Sanctaria]

I join the other Editors here to say yes please, please decouple them from issues. Please.

But I do agree with Blatt that tying them to GA/SC resolutions will only make life harder for GenSec or the SC Mods to have to patrol the queue and would really impact the regulars in the GA and SC communities by having a ton of crap being put in the queue (and then up for vote!) so people get cards. People want to do something to get cards, passively waiting for a resolution to be written, put in queue, and then passed is not really "fun", so just isn't realistic.

I can only suggest making the best nation game (if you want to tie it to that) more prominent for the casual player to find.

[The Python]

would make hosting pull events way harder.

Pull events exist only because of a flaw in the card-spawning mechanic. They need to go away. Yes, I've taken advantage of them, but no, I would not miss them.

~Frisbeeteria the Card Trader (not the moderator)

They really are useful (also as a card trader) in cards collections (such as legendary collections). Removing them would make collecting rarer cards way harder and I would certainly miss them.

-snip-

Agree with Sanc's take