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Removing the necessity for Card Farms

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Frisbeeteria
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Postby Frisbeeteria » Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:06 am

Flanderlion wrote:The OP is one proposal. Changing from one way of generating cards packs to three ways, and removing the 10 pack maximum cap.

The three ways are issues like current - just a lower rate, BN game (chance per comparison, meant to be far faster than farming by switching nations and doing issues), and at the end of each WA resolution, every valid vote receives a pack. The WA bit was A) to increase discoverability of the game, and B) to ensure the average nation isn't disadvantaged by the change.

The idea evolved from just Best Nation game only in response to valid concerns that having the BN game as the exclusive way to generate packs might reduce the number of new players finding and participating in the game.

Thanks for that consolidated view. I still think that it feels like a cobbled up solution, taking bits and pieces of totally unrelated activity and trying to shovel the card game into the gaps.

Elegarth wrote:you are basically actually trying to force cards into one of the less interesting, less appealing mini games in the history of NS.

Based on player feedback, I think your summation is accurate. There was significantly less buzz from the player base than mini-games like Zombies and Nukes. I really feel like this is a "square peg, round hole" solution. Not that I have a better one.

Maybe we need to look outside the box at something new - a card generating mini-game of some sort. Trading cards and political simulation are odd bedfellows. Is there a better way?

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Xoriet
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Postby Xoriet » Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:29 am

Frisbeeteria wrote:Maybe we need to look outside the box at something new - a card generating mini-game of some sort. Trading cards and political simulation are odd bedfellows. Is there a better way?

It's a little more complicated, but theoretically you could always tie it to winning challenges in the Challenge game. That wouldn't require puppets because you could have a chance at generating a pack in a victory with a nation of a similar or higher level. It also encourages people to answer issues to raise their level so they can more easily defeat more nations. To raise stats for that game requires actually paying attention to your issue answers, so perhaps that would help fix the mess that Cards have turned issues into.

Otherwise, a new minigame might be the best bet?
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Luna Amore
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Postby Luna Amore » Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:36 am

Xoriet wrote:
Frisbeeteria wrote:Maybe we need to look outside the box at something new - a card generating mini-game of some sort. Trading cards and political simulation are odd bedfellows. Is there a better way?

It's a little more complicated, but theoretically you could always tie it to winning challenges in the Challenge game. That wouldn't require puppets because you could have a chance at generating a pack in a victory with a nation of a similar or higher level. It also encourages people to answer issues to raise their level so they can more easily defeat more nations. To raise stats for that game requires actually paying attention to your issue answers, so perhaps that would help fix the mess that Cards have turned issues into.

Otherwise, a new minigame might be the best bet?

Just FYI, the issue stats that editors see only go back 30 days. So any new card generation system that valued meaningful choice over random would fix the issue stats in a month.

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The Seeker of Power
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Postby The Seeker of Power » Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:47 am

Frisbeeteria wrote:I really feel like this is a "square peg, round hole" solution. Not that I have a better one.

This is a perfect summary of how this feels. Square peg, Round Hole.

And as I mentioned, I also lack a better idea. What kind of new mini game?
Last edited by The Seeker of Power on Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Frisbeeteria
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Postby Frisbeeteria » Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:27 am

The Seeker of Power wrote:What kind of new mini game?

I split off my new idea for Trading Card Yahtzee to a new thread, since it's too much of a threadjack for this one.
Last edited by Frisbeeteria on Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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United Calanworie
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Postby United Calanworie » Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:16 pm

Frisbeeteria wrote:
United Calanworie wrote:I know I might be entirely off the mark here, but… what about just putting a captcha on the issue answer page if (x) requests come from that IP address in (y) time?

We need to get away from this idea that IP addresses are one to a customer. We have a ton of student nations who all post from the same IP. One school uses us in about 20-30 different classrooms. We'd be penalizing all but the first player. Also consider that VPN players can easily switch IPs; and mobile players often share aggregator IPs even when posting from different cities or regions.

Sorry, you're correct that you're entirely off the mark here.


Is there a way to identify individual players, then, and tie a captcha to them? I suggested IP because that's how the API does it and I figured the API had a method to prevent the student nations from blocking each other. (Although, now that I'm thinking about it, there could be a pretty fair assumption that schools aren't going to be making API requests to begin with..)
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Frisbeeteria
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Postby Frisbeeteria » Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:30 pm

United Calanworie wrote:Is there a way to identify individual players,

Not reliably or programmatically, no. We've talked about Accounts, where you'd register puppets, but that's a massive job that goes far beyond just cards. It would also only work for players who chose to be affected by having a single account; i.e rules abiders. Rule-breakers could still break rules.

United Calanworie wrote: I figured the API had a method to prevent the student nations from blocking each other.

We do when teachers use it as intended. Big surprise - teachers aren't any better at reading instructions than anyone else, so they frequently get blocked by the API throttle too.

United Calanworie wrote:there could be a pretty fair assumption that schools aren't going to be making API requests to begin with.

Let's hope so. We really don't want a bunch of script kiddies operating from middle school computers and servers.

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Flanderlion
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Postby Flanderlion » Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:27 am

Frisbeeteria wrote:
Flanderlion wrote:The OP is one proposal. Changing from one way of generating cards packs to three ways, and removing the 10 pack maximum cap.

The three ways are issues like current - just a lower rate, BN game (chance per comparison, meant to be far faster than farming by switching nations and doing issues), and at the end of each WA resolution, every valid vote receives a pack. The WA bit was A) to increase discoverability of the game, and B) to ensure the average nation isn't disadvantaged by the change.

The idea evolved from just Best Nation game only in response to valid concerns that having the BN game as the exclusive way to generate packs might reduce the number of new players finding and participating in the game.

Thanks for that consolidated view. I still think that it feels like a cobbled up solution, taking bits and pieces of totally unrelated activity and trying to shovel the card game into the gaps.

Elegarth wrote:you are basically actually trying to force cards into one of the less interesting, less appealing mini games in the history of NS.

Based on player feedback, I think your summation is accurate. There was significantly less buzz from the player base than mini-games like Zombies and Nukes. I really feel like this is a "square peg, round hole" solution. Not that I have a better one.

Maybe we need to look outside the box at something new - a card generating mini-game of some sort. Trading cards and political simulation are odd bedfellows. Is there a better way?

Fair. I disagree, but at the end of the day, you've got the final decision.

Re the comments about the Best Nation game - it's just the skin on the 'get pack' button, as for normal players that's a bit more interesting than just 'click this button and get a chance of a pack'. I was initially for decoupling entirely with issues, but issues is how most players find this as a game, and it works well for most individual players, just for farmers it isn't. Hence why adding a better way of farming while keeping the game as is for normal players.
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Fauzjhia
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Postby Fauzjhia » Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:53 am

Flanderlion wrote:Fair. I disagree, but at the end of the day, you've got the final decision.

Re the comments about the Best Nation game - it's just the skin on the 'get pack' button, as for normal players that's a bit more interesting than just 'click this button and get a chance of a pack'. I was initially for decoupling entirely with issues, but issues is how most players find this as a game, and it works well for most individual players, just for farmers it isn't. Hence why adding a better way of farming while keeping the game as is for normal players.


so you want to create two type of nations
1 for Farming - Don't know how you think the farmers will limits themselves to only or how you think they will be limited to the same numbers of cards as we have rights,
and another for normal players. who receive cards by answering issues.

I'll ask some points, because I feel you never gotten why I object it. but precision is needed here.
will players who receive cards by answering to be able to get cards with that patch
How will farmers be limited on the numbers of cards they farm each ?
how would this work with TACLS ? (and don't give me, single nations do not transfers.)
why do you need to be (competitive ? )
how would this work with deck capacity ? ( storage nations ? )
that's always where the devil is, inside the details.
Last edited by Fauzjhia on Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Archinstinct
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Postby Archinstinct » Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:21 pm

I can support this.

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Flanderlion
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Postby Flanderlion » Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:39 am

Left this for a bit, as was happy to see if any other good competing idea would emerge. They didn't, and the problem is still there, so I'm going back to this.

Fauzjhia wrote:
Flanderlion wrote:Fair. I disagree, but at the end of the day, you've got the final decision.

Re the comments about the Best Nation game - it's just the skin on the 'get pack' button, as for normal players that's a bit more interesting than just 'click this button and get a chance of a pack'. I was initially for decoupling entirely with issues, but issues is how most players find this as a game, and it works well for most individual players, just for farmers it isn't. Hence why adding a better way of farming while keeping the game as is for normal players.


so you want to create two type of nations
1 for Farming - Don't know how you think the farmers will limits themselves to only or how you think they will be limited to the same numbers of cards as we have rights,
and another for normal players. who receive cards by answering issues.

I'll ask some points, because I feel you never gotten why I object it. but precision is needed here.
will players who receive cards by answering to be able to get cards with that patch

Wait what? Not two types of nations, just status quo with a reduced rate for issues, giving a pack for nations who vote in WA resolutions, and giving an option to generate lots of packs via answering best nation comparisons.

Yes, players who receive cards by answering would still be able to receive card packs. Just there would be a better option to use to generate packs. If you can generate 10 million packs in an hour by answering issues while rapidly changing nations, or generate 100 million packs in an hour by answering comparisons, most people would choose the option that gave them more packs for their time.

Fauzjhia wrote:How will farmers be limited on the numbers of cards they farm each ?
how would this work with TACLS ? (and don't give me, single nations do not transfers.)

By deck capacity as before.
And it would work exactly the same with TACLS, the only difference is how packs are generated (and there being no cap on the unopened packs a nation can have).

Fauzjhia wrote:why do you need to be (competitive ? )
how would this work with deck capacity ? ( storage nations ? )
that's always where the devil is, inside the details.

Everyone should be competitive - that's just my view on what a good game is. This suggestion is about making it not necessary for players to have thousands of nations to be.
Deck capacity would work as normal, players would retain storage nations like present. This isn't about removing all puppets, just removing the need for players to have thousands to be competitive.
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Fauzjhia
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Postby Fauzjhia » Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:23 am

at this point, we just repeat we already said.

why do you need to be competitive. why you feel the need to beat mikeswill ? Why you think its important to have a good rank on the leader-board ?
you see, your entire argument seem to you NEED to be competitive, but no you don't need that.
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Caleonia
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Postby Caleonia » Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:27 am

The only problem I see with the proposals is the use of the World Assembly votes to gain more packs; I don’t want to have to abide by the World Assembly just to get an edge on that artwork stat line. If anything we should just reset the decks entirely and start from square one at the worst.

Besides we do need a season three but manually distributed to weed out puppet cards… wait that’s why we haven’t had a new season in two years
Last edited by Caleonia on Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Caleonia
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Postby Caleonia » Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:32 am

Fauzjhia wrote:at this point, we just repeat we already said.

why do you need to be competitive. why you feel the need to beat mikeswill ? Why you think its important to have a good rank on the leader-board ?
you see, your entire argument seem to you NEED to be competitive, but no you don't need that.

Competition is something people enjoy. You shouldn’t disown someone’s argument for a balance patch on something they enjoy just because they (and others who don’t want to manage those puppets) want to be competitive within said fun little matchup. I may not be competitive myself but I still enjoy collecting cards of the nations I enjoy and having a good stat within that line.
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Postby Praeceps » Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:35 am

I think having packs be generated from the WA is better off as a separate idea. One of the biggest issues is the amount of card farms, I think this idea is better when it focuses on just solving that issue and will run into less resistance.
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Postby Flanderlion » Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:04 pm

Praeceps wrote:I think having packs be generated from the WA is better off as a separate idea. One of the biggest issues is the amount of card farms, I think this idea is better when it focuses on just solving that issue and will run into less resistance.

Agreed. Think this addition should be solely adding a second way of generating cards through the BN game at a much faster rate, making it the logical choice.

With pull events being removed, I think this deserves another bump (as the biggest issue with cards and one of the top 4 for the game, after NPE, retention and forum falling apart) as the issue is still getting worse.
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Land Without Shrimp
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Postby Land Without Shrimp » Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:45 am

I hesitantly support the idea of adding a secondary(primary?) way of generating packs on top of issue-answering. I don't like it, but if it's not feasible to limit puppets any other way, then just give a "generate pack" button to those who want it. Hopefully that will help to drive downward the amount of puppets currently in the ecosystem.

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Fauzjhia
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Postby Fauzjhia » Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:06 am

the way I see this idea. its more like
people asking to be able to farm packs, non-stop for more then 4-5 hours. This just scream addiction, and we should not allow something just because players are not able to limit themselves. sorry, but I see no reason to give you the ability to farm all day with a single nation.

As I explained in tacls thread. this create a certain limit on card farming, certain barrier, and you suggest to simply remove it, because you think these barriers are so permissive to certain players, it might not even exist.
yes you might tacls was not limiting cards players, but it HAD helpful effects you did not see, and it had a limiting effect on inflation, since a player would not be able to raise the value of a cards without bringing attention of the MV or triggering tacls, you just did not see the limits it had on the game.
the same, you are not looking at the current limits of the game, you simply tries to remove them. I Would be in favor of REPLACING these limits with other limits, but to just remove them ? No, I am not in favor.

plus there are multiples puppets that are not influenced by cards, and are just as (ugly), starting with the famous wombles and etcs. these do not deserve to exist anymore then card puppets.
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Postby Caleonia » Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:27 am

Fauzjhia wrote:the way I see this idea. its more like
people asking to be able to farm packs, non-stop for more then 4-5 hours. This just scream addiction, and we should not allow something just because players are not able to limit themselves. sorry, but I see no reason to give you the ability to farm all day with a single nation.

The entire point of this thread is to try to solve how to make that NOT happen while also making the playing field fair in the process. Plus I have no idea what you’re saying past the first paragraph. Either way the situation is getting out of control.
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Caleonia
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Postby Caleonia » Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:33 am

By the way, just for clarification, does NS track IP Addresses for where a nation was created? Maybe we could add that as a tracking limit for how many nations can be made in an IP Address, and once that limit is reached neither the IP Address nor device can host any more nations to originate from. Sure it may screw over university programs but it’s kinda just… an idea that came to mind to help stop huge puppet farms.
Last edited by Caleonia on Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Fauzjhia
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Postby Fauzjhia » Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:46 am

Caleonia wrote:
Fauzjhia wrote:the way I see this idea. its more like
people asking to be able to farm packs, non-stop for more then 4-5 hours. This just scream addiction, and we should not allow something just because players are not able to limit themselves. sorry, but I see no reason to give you the ability to farm all day with a single nation.

The entire point of this thread is to try to solve how to make that NOT happen while also making the playing field fair in the process. Plus I have no idea what you’re saying past the first paragraph. Either way the situation is getting out of control.


yet this is entire point of this topic. Allow people to farm as much as like on a single nation, so they will let their card farming puppet CTE.
I don't believe in it. I think that card guild proposal is better, even if not perfect at all.

what I am saying is that current rules do enact a limit on card farming, it might be very inefficient and very loose. but here you propose to remove it, without placing anything to compensate.


By the way, just for clarification, does NS track IP Addresses for where a nation was created? Maybe we could add that as a tracking limit for how many nations can be made in an IP Address, and once that limit is reached neither the IP Address nor device can host any more nations to originate from. Sure it may screw over university programs but it’s kinda just… an idea that came to mind to help stop huge puppet farms.

This has been suggested and rejected multiple times. a Single ip does not a single person, a person can use more then 1 ip and multiple person can use a single one.
I don,t dislike. I dislike how card farming puppets region are used solely to boost the values of their owners. however only a few persons take it to extreme heights. and I don,t want my card program to suffer just because they are (puppets), you might no think about it. but it takes puppets to give 277 legendary cards to other players. card puppets also has a beneficial effect on the game. Like all things, what's wrong is how they are used, and how they answer issues with (got-issues script), (solely exist to fuel the main, or the main's 2nd)

a card guild, where people has to put 1 nation in the WA, they have to recognize their puppets and with a limit on cards puppets, (but that prevent raiders from playing their game and cards at the same time, so no thanks, and if it does not prevent raiders from raiding, it could be bypass by puppets faking being a main) so there's not real simple solution.
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Luna Amore
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Postby Luna Amore » Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:44 pm

Caleonia wrote:By the way, just for clarification, does NS track IP Addresses for where a nation was created? Maybe we could add that as a tracking limit for how many nations can be made in an IP Address, and once that limit is reached neither the IP Address nor device can host any more nations to originate from. Sure it may screw over university programs but it’s kinda just… an idea that came to mind to help stop huge puppet farms.

IPs are too variable to be used reliably as an identifier by themselves.

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Caleonia
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Postby Caleonia » Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:56 am

Luna Amore wrote:
Caleonia wrote:By the way, just for clarification, does NS track IP Addresses for where a nation was created? Maybe we could add that as a tracking limit for how many nations can be made in an IP Address, and once that limit is reached neither the IP Address nor device can host any more nations to originate from. Sure it may screw over university programs but it’s kinda just… an idea that came to mind to help stop huge puppet farms.

IPs are too variable to be used reliably as an identifier by themselves.

Okay thanks for the clarification.
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Vylixan
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Postby Vylixan » Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:57 am

I created my card farms for two purposes, to farms cards, and to have nice cards in S3
This would not let me CTE them at all.

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Flanderlion
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Postby Flanderlion » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:27 am

Vylixan wrote:I created my card farms for two purposes, to farms cards, and to have nice cards in S3
This would not let me CTE them at all.

Then all you would have would be a better way to farm cards, and you'd keep your nice cards for S3 while having a slightly higher chance of receiving them (as not everyone will keep them as shown even in this thread). Doesn't sound like the end of the world to me.
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