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Frontiers/Strongholds [ex Democracy/Autocracy]

Bug reports, general help, ideas for improvements, and questions about how things are meant to work.

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Quebecshire
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Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Quebecshire » Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:23 pm

Bassiliya wrote:I know this was a bit further back, but I had an idea. We were talking about the whole "Governor" title thing for founders and successors. Why can't we just have customizable founder/delegate/successor names? That would really help with regions that involve the founder in their government. It would make my title in Thegye change from "Founder / Diarch" to just "Diarch". Much cleaner, especially if the founder/successor is also the delegate.

This is a good idea. Tie it to executive perms and boom. NS++ used to have something like this as well and it was cool.
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Brox Reple
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Founded: Oct 10, 2020
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Brox Reple » Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:01 am

All Wild Things wrote:
Brox Reple wrote:Hello!

I am curious as to whether the spawning will be equally split among all frontiers, perhaps proportional to WAD endocount (either linear, logarithmic, square root, or even something else) as it was mentioned a while ago.
I mention this in addition to the boosts violet envisioned

What do you think would be best? This is your chance to help determine the outcome.

It was argued earlier that equal splits would lead to empires and colonies, that linear with endos would encourage large regions with less incentive for R/D conflict, and that log/square root would be somewhere in between.

I like Flanderlion's suggestion of scores, but I don't agree with what makes up the score. Someone already mentioned that basing score on RMB posts would encourage spam. I'd say that you could spam polls too - every two weeks you could set up a 24 day poll "Is this a poll?" and game the system that way. So yeah, maybe bonus points for a poll, but not many.

I do agree with the share being related to endo count in some way tho.


Yeah fair point I think I should put in my opinion in the ring as well. I do think that equal split would be counterproductive, as we still want regions to have a higher chance of spawning in properly established regions. While the spawning boosts that [violet] mentioned do have an effect on that, I think a long-term mechanic like factoring in endocount is beneficial.
As for which function to use, I guess that largely depends on what kind of region you represent. Larger regions will prefer linear while smaller while be enticed by equal split. I think the compromise of logarithmic or sqrt would probably work best.
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Bassiliya
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Founded: Jan 09, 2020
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Bassiliya » Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:43 am

Quebecshire wrote:
Bassiliya wrote:I know this was a bit further back, but I had an idea. We were talking about the whole "Governor" title thing for founders and successors. Why can't we just have customizable founder/delegate/successor names? That would really help with regions that involve the founder in their government. It would make my title in Thegye change from "Founder / Diarch" to just "Diarch". Much cleaner, especially if the founder/successor is also the delegate.

This is a good idea. Tie it to executive perms and boom. NS++ used to have something like this as well and it was cool.

I loved the NS++ version of that (when it worked) and I've been thinking about it ever since. It would really save a lot of wasted space on the WFE.

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Haganham
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Founded: Aug 17, 2021
Father Knows Best State

Postby Haganham » Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:52 am

We still need to have default terms for it for regions that don't bother with a custom name... unless we're going to require a custom name at setup, ew.

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Bassiliya
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Founded: Jan 09, 2020
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Bassiliya » Fri Oct 29, 2021 4:54 am

Haganham wrote:We still need to have default terms for it for regions that don't bother with a custom name... unless we're going to require a custom name at setup, ew.

Just like how ROs have default settings for appointments, I don't see why the Founder/Successor/Delegate can't have their own defaults, just customizable ones.

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Johanneslanden
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Founded: Oct 16, 2018
New York Times Democracy

Postby Johanneslanden » Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:18 pm

If I'm understanding this correctly: a founderless region may gain a founder by transitioning from Stronghold to Frontier, and back. This would make the delegate at time of transition the new founder.
That presumably means a raid during the update that the region is meant to become a Stronghold again, would lead to the raiders gaining total control over the region.

Would appreciate confirmation of this, as delegate of a founderless region it'll be useful in working out our options here.
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Sincluda
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Sincluda » Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:24 pm

Where does development on this stand at the moment?
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ShrewLlamaLand
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby ShrewLlamaLand » Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:45 pm

Johanneslanden wrote:If I'm understanding this correctly: a founderless region may gain a founder by transitioning from Stronghold to Frontier, and back. This would make the delegate at time of transition the new founder.
That presumably means a raid during the update that the region is meant to become a Stronghold again, would lead to the raiders gaining total control over the region.

Would appreciate confirmation of this, as delegate of a founderless region it'll be useful in working out our options here.

Nope, this was addressed:

If the Delegate position changes hands during this process, then an additional 3 days are added to the transition time period.


Personally I don't think 3 days is long enough (particularly because passing an SC resolution takes a minimum of 4 days...) but that's a different issue - what you suggested above is not possible.
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Apatosaurus
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Founded: Jul 17, 2020
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Apatosaurus » Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:29 pm

ShrewLlamaLand wrote:Personally I don't think 3 days is long enough (particularly because passing an SC resolution takes a minimum of 4 days...) but that's a different issue - what you suggested above is not possible.

Yeah, agreed with Shrew, what's the stance on increasing the 3 days limit?
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Insidium
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Founded: Nov 10, 2021
Anarchy

Postby Insidium » Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:33 am

Sedgistan wrote:"Fortify" was okay. Looking at synonyms of the better words above, "Ensconce" could be fun, though that may be just because it's a funny word. What about "Anchor"? It seems a highly appropriate description; you're anchoring a region as one type so it cannot be changed to the other. And everyone can shout "anchors aweigh" when one gets repealed, and make all sorts of nautical puns.

How about “Freeze”?
Last edited by Insidium on Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Flanderlion
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Founded: Nov 25, 2013
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Flanderlion » Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:26 pm

It should always go to the ex-founder, not the delegate. Too easy for a region to be raided and the raider being appointed founder.
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Comfed
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Founded: Apr 09, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Comfed » Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:29 pm

Flanderlion wrote:It should always go to the ex-founder, not the delegate. Too easy for a region to be raided and the raider being appointed founder.

That would remove the option for founderless regions to get a founder.
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Flanderlion
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Founded: Nov 25, 2013
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Postby Flanderlion » Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:49 pm

Comfed wrote:
Flanderlion wrote:It should always go to the ex-founder, not the delegate. Too easy for a region to be raided and the raider being appointed founder.

That would remove the option for founderless regions to get a founder.

Doesn't sound a bad thing to me. Custodian should be the only way for regions to appoint a new one.
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Comfed
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Founded: Apr 09, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Comfed » Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:02 pm

Flanderlion wrote:
Comfed wrote:That would remove the option for founderless regions to get a founder.

Doesn't sound a bad thing to me. Custodian should be the only way for regions to appoint a new one.

I think regions should be able to use that tool for themselves rather than subject their foundership to a popularity contest.

Also, I have yet to see an argument as to why raiders making themselves founders is such a problem when there are already tools against it being proposed.
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ShrewLlamaLand
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Founded: Nov 30, 2015
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby ShrewLlamaLand » Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:25 am

Comfed wrote:
Flanderlion wrote:Doesn't sound a bad thing to me. Custodian should be the only way for regions to appoint a new one.

I think regions should be able to use that tool for themselves rather than subject their foundership to a popularity contest.

Also, I have yet to see an argument as to why raiders making themselves founders is such a problem when there are already tools against it being proposed.

Because the time delay between a raider being appointed as Founder after seizing the Delegate position is shorter than the time required to make use of the main tool against it.

Other than this, I agree that this mechanic should absolutely remain because as you said appointing a Founder should not be a popularity contest.
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All Wild Things
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Founded: Apr 24, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby All Wild Things » Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:23 am

ShrewLlamaLand wrote:
Comfed wrote:I think regions should be able to use that tool for themselves rather than subject their foundership to a popularity contest.

Also, I have yet to see an argument as to why raiders making themselves founders is such a problem when there are already tools against it being proposed.

Because the time delay between a raider being appointed as Founder after seizing the Delegate position is shorter than the time required to make use of the main tool against it.

Other than this, I agree that this mechanic should absolutely remain because as you said appointing a Founder should not be a popularity contest.

I suppose the tactic would be for ROs to eject unnecessary nations from the region, then the delegate applies a secret password.
The delegate needs to have enough influence remaining for the transition to Stronghold.
The delegate also needs to figure out who they can trust to be inside the passworded region while the transition goes through.
If it's a strong community, then people would understand that they were getting kicked out only temporarily, and that it was necessary for the transition to be secure.

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Sedgistan
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Founded: Oct 20, 2006
Anarchy

Postby Sedgistan » Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:43 am

Sincluda wrote:Where does development on this stand at the moment?

There's not any progress to report at present. We don't have a finalised plan for the the eligibility / rate of spawns in Frontiers, but that's being worked on, based on the feedback that's been given here. It's a tricky balancing act as there's some competing goals.

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Sedgistan
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Founded: Oct 20, 2006
Anarchy

Postby Sedgistan » Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:52 pm

Frontiers/Strongholds is officially on admin's to-code list. I'll get around to updating the OP at some point, but as discussed over the last couple of pages, the eligibility criteria for Frontiers receiving spawns is now more granular than previously planned.

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Queen Yuno
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Founded: Dec 30, 2015
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Queen Yuno » Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:27 am

That's great news to see this update happen. I fully support this, this will be good for the health of the game down the long run.

I hope you go ahead and implement your idea fully and don't worry about the GCRs interests, UCRs are too small. Good luck

Please don't make it too hard for UCRs xD

But regardless I have faith in this idea for a long time and eagerly await these exciting new developments. Thanks for innovating
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Altmoras
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Founded: Jan 25, 2012
New York Times Democracy

Postby Altmoras » Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:44 pm

So do you lose new nations for a whole week if you change your welcome TG?
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Katerose von Kreutzer
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Founded: Jun 27, 2021
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Katerose von Kreutzer » Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:42 pm

Altmoras wrote:So do you lose new nations for a whole week if you change your welcome TG?
Way I read it, and the way I think it would be more logical to apply, is that if you stop having a welcome telegram you stop spawning. Changing welcome telegrams shouldn't trigger a stop to nation-spawning.
Last edited by Katerose von Kreutzer on Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Leutria
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Founded: Oct 29, 2012
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Postby Leutria » Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:46 pm

Katerose von Kreutzer wrote:
Altmoras wrote:So do you lose new nations for a whole week if you change your welcome TG?
Way I read it, and the way I think it would be more logical to apply, is that if you stop having a welcome telegram you stop spawning. Changing welcome telegrams shouldn't trigger a stop to nation-spawning.

The issue is you have to cancel your existing welcome telegram to set a new one.

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Galiantus III
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Galiantus III » Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:37 am

Altmoras wrote:So do you lose new nations for a whole week if you change your welcome TG?


The week period you are thinking of is a stipulation on the number of delegate endorsements, to prevent people from griefing the system with lots of flash frontiers. So just swapping welcome TG's definitely won't stop new spawns for a week. The worst-case scenario would only be until the next update, when spawn eligibility is evaluated. And this could easily be implemented to be instantaneous - welcome TG's are a requirement born out of concern for new players, not gameplay.
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