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[Idea] CTE Delayon Regions

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The Python
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[Idea] CTE Delayon Regions

Postby The Python » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:11 pm

A random thought I had to make it harder for raiders to destroy/refound regions after occupying - what if there was a, say, 12 hour delay from the region having no nations in it and CTE'ing, so they must have no nations for 2 updates to CTE? This would make it easier for defenders or natives to snipe refounds.
Last edited by Luna Amore on Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:03 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Comfed
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Postby Comfed » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:43 pm

Definitely not. Refounding regions has been part of R/D since 2006. As well, natives also refound regions.
(And you may want to make the title of the thread more descriptive.)
Last edited by Comfed on Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Python
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Postby The Python » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:46 pm

Comfed wrote:Definitely not. Refounding regions has been part of R/D since 2006. As well, natives also refound regions.
(And you may want to make the title of the thread more descriptive.)

true, but there should still be a delay between regions having no members and them CTE'ing.
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Postby Comfed » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:48 pm

The Python wrote:
Comfed wrote:Definitely not. Refounding regions has been part of R/D since 2006. As well, natives also refound regions.
(And you may want to make the title of the thread more descriptive.)

true, but there should still be a delay between regions having no members and them CTE'ing.

Why? Then, instead of refounding right away raiders would just wait until the next update.
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The Python
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Postby The Python » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:50 pm

Comfed wrote:
The Python wrote:true, but there should still be a delay between regions having no members and them CTE'ing.

Why? Then, instead of refounding right away raiders would just wait until the next update.

it would give defenders and natives more time to snipe the refound. Right now raiders can refound unpredictably, so natives/defenders do not have much time to snipe the refound, a 12 hours delay would give defenders more time to spot it and snipe the refound.
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Postby Comfed » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:57 pm

The Python wrote:
Comfed wrote:Why? Then, instead of refounding right away raiders would just wait until the next update.

it would give defenders and natives more time to snipe the refound. Right now raiders can refound unpredictably, so natives/defenders do not have much time to snipe the refound, a 12 hours delay would give defenders more time to spot it and snipe the refound.

It mostly just sounds like you’re giving defenders an unfair advantage - there are many tools to fight refounds before the update where it happens that this is unnecessary.
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One Small Island
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Postby One Small Island » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:44 pm

The Python wrote:it would give defenders and natives more time to snipe the refound.

It would also give raiders more time to snipe defender and native refounds.
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The Sherpa Empire
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Postby The Sherpa Empire » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:56 pm

What would this actually accomplish, though?

If people can still enter the "reserved" regions, then they can still be raided. If people can't enter, then it is still unusable for everyone else, just like it would be unusable if it was held by raiders.
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Flanderlion
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Postby Flanderlion » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:40 pm

I actually like this idea. It sucks for R/D refounds, but R/D should be taking and building regions, not taking and destroying.
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LollerLand
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Postby LollerLand » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:54 pm

This is not such a great solution because
One Small Island wrote:It would also give raiders more time to snipe defender and native refounds.


Also, fully against admin intervention to give either side of R/D an unfair advantage.
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The Python
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Postby The Python » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:56 pm

The Sherpa Empire wrote:What would this actually accomplish, though?

If people can still enter the "reserved" regions, then they can still be raided. If people can't enter, then it is still unusable for everyone else, just like it would be unusable if it was held by raiders.

it would make it easier if defenders are online at update and refound the region before the raiders to regain control - they would have more time to spot it.

Flanderlion wrote:I actually like this idea. It sucks for R/D refounds, but R/D should be taking and building regions, not taking and destroying.


This, this, this. Raiders shouldn't be destroying regions if they are occupying, if they have to they should just leave the region once they're done rather than actually destroying it. This doesn't stop them but gives defenders/natives an extra chance before they lose the region forever.

The Sherpa Empire wrote:What would this actually accomplish, though?

If people can still enter the "reserved" regions, then they can still be raided. If people can't enter, then it is still unusable for everyone else, just like it would be unusable if it was held by raiders.


I thought about this and realised that yes the idea of regions that were large cannot be refounded would be useless because then raiders cannot keep it as a trophy but natives also cannot refound.
Last edited by The Python on Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:11 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Luna Amore
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Postby Luna Amore » Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:10 am

One Small Island wrote:
The Python wrote:it would give defenders and natives more time to snipe the refound.

It would also give raiders more time to snipe defender and native refounds.

This is the first thing that came to mind.

What percentage of refounds are raiders trying to cap a region? If it's a small, you are making your average users attempts at refounding harder to benefit niche situations. If this were in place when I refounded my region Free Thought, I'm not so sure I would have been successful.

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Postby Unibot III » Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:01 am

At least historically, defenders have the advantage in refound scenerios because defenders usually had more people who can be called online for update - most raiders were pilers, not updaters. No idea if that's still true.

The more people you have clicking "Create Region," the greater chance you can snatch the refound though. So increasing your updater count, increases the probability you will win the refound.

In general though, the better strategy is to not leave it up to chance if possible: flooding updaters into the region right before update blocks the refound before it can take place, but screws up the occupation. This is why WA Liberations are so helpful in discouraging regional griefing because it is regional passwords that block that latter manuever. Trying to grief a region without a password is a lot more difficult than griefing a region with a password.

What I think could be a helpful discussion is over the timeline of WA Liberations. Recalling Illuminati and Westphalia, for instance. Players nowadays have a lot better understanding of influence accumulation and the science behind it than previous generations, and they can obstruct the WA Queue through quorum raiding. Invaders have figured when to strike, how many pilers to use, how long to stash their lead puppet in the region beforehand, and how long it will take to optimize their occupation, so that defenders are behind the eight-ball when it comes to trying to get a WA Liberation in the queue and passed in time to prevent the regional griefing.
Last edited by Unibot III on Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Python
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Postby The Python » Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:06 pm

Unibot III wrote:At least historically, defenders have the advantage in refound scenerios because defenders usually had more people who can be called online for update - most raiders were pilers, not updaters. No idea if that's still true.

The more people you have clicking "Create Region," the greater chance you can snatch the refound though. So increasing your updater count, increases the probability you will win the refound.

In general though, the better strategy is to not leave it up to chance if possible: flooding updaters into the region right before update blocks the refound before it can take place, but screws up the occupation. This is why WA Liberations are so helpful in discouraging regional griefing because it is regional passwords that block that latter manuever. Trying to grief a region without a password is a lot more difficult than griefing a region with a password.

What I think could be a helpful discussion is over the timeline of WA Liberations. Recalling Illuminati and Westphalia, for instance. Players nowadays have a lot better understanding of influence accumulation and the science behind it than previous generations, and they can obstruct the WA Queue through quorum raiding. Invaders have figured when to strike, how many pilers to use, how long to stash their lead puppet in the region beforehand, and how long it will take to optimize their occupation, so that defenders are behind the eight-ball when it comes to trying to get a WA Liberation in the queue and passed in time to prevent the regional griefing.

This is actually true, because like people are better at judging whether a refound is for malicious intentions/raiding than leaving it up to technical/robots to do it for all refounds. Maybe there could be a lowered approval requirement for WA liberations andWA repeal liberations to reach quorum, as well as them taking priority over all others in the queue? (for example if a WA condemn reaches quorum and later a liberation, the liberation will always go first and then the condemn)
Last edited by The Python on Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Comfed
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Postby Comfed » Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:43 pm

That idea also gives defenders an unfair advantage :lol: - honestly I don’t see any problems with the current system.
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Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:In the liberal justice system, raiding-based offenses are considered especially heinous. In The South Pacific, the dedicated defenders who investigate these vicious felonies are members of an elite squad known as the Council on Regional Security. These are their proscriptions. DUN DUN.

Numero Capitan wrote:I haven't bothered reading back but I can unequivocally say that I agree with everything HEM has said and Unibot is wrong

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Postby United Calanworie » Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:10 pm

The Python wrote:A random thought I had to make it harder for raiders to destroy/refound regions after occupying - what if there was a, say, 12 hour delay from the region having no nations in it and CTE'ing, so they must have no nations for 2 updates to CTE? This would make it easier for defenders or natives to snipe refounds.


So you mean a whole 24 update cycle? Like, I'm genuinely curious as to the point of this. You're asking for an admin solution to what is not a problem in need of admin intervention. There are not many refounds taking place that are raiders refounding trophies. It would also substantially impact antifascist action as it would give fascists a whole extra update in which they can snipe their region back.
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Tim-Opolis
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Postby Tim-Opolis » Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:25 am

I don't think this is necessary, and is frankly a solution looking for a problem that doesn't exist.
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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:40 pm

Any failures to liberate Illuminati or Westphalia on the SC side was due to the interregional community not wishing to do so.

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Postby Parxland » Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:03 am

The Python wrote:A random thought I had to make it harder for raiders to destroy/refound regions after occupying - what if there was a, say, 12 hour delay from the region having no nations in it and CTE'ing, so they must have no nations for 2 updates to CTE? This would make it easier for defenders or natives to snipe refounds.


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Leutria
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Postby Leutria » Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:30 am

Are region hawks not an issue anymore? I remember them being a concern when natives wanted to refound a region back when I started playing. This would make it easier for such players over natives, but if it isn't a thing anymore, then that concern might not matter (unless making it easier brings back region hawking).


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