Suggestion: delay feeder welcome TGs

[Galiantus III]

-snip-

I think you hit the problem spot-on. The importance of a new player's experience in the first minutes on the site cannot be overstated. For the nation side of the game this is done very well, and fortunately so - it's the core mechanic of the site. But regions are not introduced well at all. I am in full support of a technical proposal to scrap the current recruitment system in favor of a third page built to effectively introduce the concept of regions to new players.

[Sedgistan]

It's just not a great system, and NS is one of the few games left where alliances seek you out through mass messages. To be comparable with modern games region selection would be a third screen on nation creation and regions would appear there to choose from. Maybe we should still have to do stuff in the background to be in queue to show up first, but it should be one group of 10 or so regions presented at once with expandable pitches. That is way less annoying than dozens of notifications that go on and on.

This isn't a new idea, but I think that is a good one. However, it's another bigger project, and I see my suggestion as something more feasible to implement in the short-term, given development time is limited, and which would get positive results. It also doesn't limit other potential changes in the future.

[Red Dusk II]

I want to come here to say that I also support Sedge's idea.

As someone who's just come back from a period of extended "retirement" so that I can help get a region I've come to enjoy hanging around in back on its feet, the idea of getting recruitment going was hands down the most daunting simply because I knew that no matter what was done on that front, it was going to be extremely hit or miss. I even went so far as to actively ask the other members of the region who were joining me in my efforts to slow down when they started offering to buy stamps, because I knew that recruitment isn't made better by just throwing stamps at the problem.

I actually feel that Sedge, if I might take a snippet of what they said, was on to something important with the following quote:

-snip-
I suggest this welcome TG be delayed by 5 minutes, which should allow 5 recruitment telegrams to be received first. That gives player-created regions that are often paying for their recruitment or carrying it out manually, a better chance of recruiting that new nation.
-snip-

Many, if not all of the UCRs I've been a part of that are actively recruiting utilize a stamp-fueled recruitment effort, wherein they're paying money for an automated, reliable recruitment system. Whereas feeder regions are by default getting to broadcast their welcome telegram, which as Sedge mentioned, includes instructions on how to block recruitment telegrams, and thus getting "free" recruitment with practically the same, if not faster sending time as the stamp-using UCR messages.

Obviously, GCRs aren't UCRs, and thus they aren't subject to the same limitations, but I do feel that a change in some way is needed. If only because actively spending money on stamps feels like just throwing it away at this point in time, and while I'm fine with spending my own money frivolously, the same does not extend to money a friend is offering.
Just my two cents, and sorry for rambling a bit.

[Topid]

It's just not a great system, and NS is one of the few games left where alliances seek you out through mass messages. To be comparable with modern games region selection would be a third screen on nation creation and regions would appear there to choose from. Maybe we should still have to do stuff in the background to be in queue to show up first, but it should be one group of 10 or so regions presented at once with expandable pitches. That is way less annoying than dozens of notifications that go on and on.

This isn't a new idea, but I think that is a good one. However, it's another bigger project, and I see my suggestion as something more feasible to implement in the short-term, given development time is limited, and which would get positive results. It also doesn't limit other potential changes in the future.

I guess that's why I added my edit. I mean, if it is just a band aid meant to hurt feeder engagement to make things more fair.. I guess it works. I would think we would care not about fairness between GCRs and UCRs but in a system that works for new/returning players. Hurting Feeders a lot by making useful information to new players a little bit more out of reach is possibly more fair to UCRs but less fair to new players.

I agree though, a true fix is not going to happen. This game has fewer features than it did when I was highly active and NS++ worked. We're not even keeping up, let alone going to be making improvements to functionality. I just think the current bad system may be a little less bad than the suggested fix.

If we were talking short term easy fixes, Sedge, is there any data out there/tracked on how successful a telegram is if it is outside of the first 6 (number chosen to keep queues equal) sent? I think cutting off the queue at a low number would do more to help UCRs than delaying the welcoming TGs personally.

[The Python]

One thing I like about feeders is their activity because they are so large. But maybe a more moderate delay like 2 minutes would be better? It is a good idea however.

EDIT: There could also be more feeders (and sinkers)

[Tim-Opolis]

I think this is an interesting idea that should, at the very least, be tested. I also think claims that 5 minutes is a significant/destructive delay are massively overblown and are imo being made in bad faith by some.

The last thing Gameplay needs is more bloated Feeder egos, though I do agree with Roavin's point that the larger issue is recruitment itself at-present. Since the release of Stamps for the purposes of Recruitment, it's effectively turned it into a P2W scheme that anybody can do with minimal effort. While it's nice having Recruitment become far more accessible, and I'm sure the site enjoys the revenue it collects from how many stamps the GP Sphere buys, it means that low-effort cookie cutter regions that would've never drained from the nation pool in the past are now presently doing so and letting those nations stagnate. I'm not sure what a good solution there is, especially because stamps aren't going anyway ever.

[Quebecshire]

Support. This is a perfectly reasonable proposal to level the playing field a bit for UCRs.

[Wymondham]

Just to clarify, would this restriction apply only.to the feeders?

[Custadia]

I can't think of a good reason this shouldn't be implemented in sinkers and feeders alike. The game ought to support wholly user-created communities. There is no reason UCR governments should pay for what GCR governments get for free: it's taking the piss.

[Flanderlion]

I can't think of a good reason this shouldn't be implemented in sinkers and feeders alike. The game ought to support wholly user-created communities. There is no reason UCR governments should pay for what GCR governments get for free: it's taking the piss.

I'd be happy if all regions paid stamps for welcome TGs.

[Comfed]

I can't think of a good reason this shouldn't be implemented in sinkers and feeders alike. The game ought to support wholly user-created communities. There is no reason UCR governments should pay for what GCR governments get for free: it's taking the piss.

I'd be happy if all regions paid stamps for welcome TGs.

So regions have to pay for retention? No. Definitely not.

[Eluvatar]

I think it'd be a bit easier to slow down the recruitment message queue(s) than to delay the welcome TG because the recruitment message queue is already throttled, so it should be tweaking existing code rather than adding new code.

Slowing down the queue(s) would mean that a given nation would only hear from a few regions, and which regions they hear from would generally be random. (But a region manually sending messages would see an advantage, perhaps even more than they do today).

I really like the idea of an interface to filter the inbox by message type, that would allow nations to receive recruitment and other mass messages without that interfering with their direct correspondence.

[East Malaysia]

It does seem like a very interesting idea. I've always been a fan or sharing the nations with UCRs because being from a feeder I know we have an advantage. I also wonder if it could be connected to something like their first issue that lets them decide if they want to recruitment telegrams in the first place.

[Aivintis]

I agree with Elu that lowering the number of recruitment telegrams is helpful for a number of reasons, but a slight delay to feeder welcome telegrams could also help alongside it.

[Zukchiva]

Support for delaying welcome telegrams, 5 minutes seems solid.

I also really like the idea of a third page for new nations, so they can simply pick a region from that page (or a list of some sort on it) versus getting recruitment spam! That sounds interesting as well.

[Comfed]

I support Eluvatar's idea of slowing down the TG queue.

[Warzone Codger]

I can't think of a good reason this shouldn't be implemented in sinkers and feeders alike. The game ought to support wholly user-created communities. There is no reason UCR governments should pay for what GCR governments get for free: it's taking the piss.

I'd be happy if all regions paid stamps for welcome TGs.

I suggested something like that in the past and got soundly ridiculed for it. But I still believe is the better system

Feeders should need to pay stamps for spawns. 3000 stamps, it goes into a spawn queue shared with other feeders, but eventually 3000 spawns. Feeders have to pay but they still have an advantage over UCRs because they are paying for spawns, not recruitment TGs. But if none of the feeders had paid for the spawn, it spawns in TRR as it was essentially rejected by all feeders before creation. UCRs TGs stay as normal.


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As for the actual topic, I see no issue with Sedge's suggestion and think the claims against are overblown. Topid is right though, there should be a fundamental rehaul of how recruitment works with a more friendly region selection screen and our discussion should be how regions can qualify on that screen.

[The Atlae Isles]

A page in which people could input what region they spawn in could be interesting and probably more convenient for GPers/card farmers/Womble/people who want to move a lot of nations, similar to what NS++ can (or used to, depending on whether it still works) do.

[Leutria]

I think it'd be a bit easier to slow down the recruitment message queue(s) than to delay the welcome TG because the recruitment message queue is already throttled, so it should be tweaking existing code rather than adding new code.

Slowing down the queue(s) would mean that a given nation would only hear from a few regions, and which regions they hear from would generally be random. (But a region manually sending messages would see an advantage, perhaps even more than they do today).

I really like the idea of an interface to filter the inbox by message type, that would allow nations to receive recruitment and other mass messages without that interfering with their direct correspondence.

Would it be possible to run a test? Say slow the queue for a week and see if it changes how likely nations are to stay in GCRs before and after? It is all well and good to speculate, but actually seeing the impact might be more useful.

In fact, it might even be possible to see if slowing it down helps without even creating any tools to measure it on your side. Just ask recruiters to to set our a large blast of recruitment telegrams at our current rate, and then again with the same telegram with a slower queue. If enough people test it we should be able to see if there is a meaningful impact.

[SherpDaWerp]

I think it'd be a bit easier to slow down the recruitment message queue(s) than to delay the welcome TG because the recruitment message queue is already throttled, so it should be tweaking existing code rather than adding new code.

Respectfully; I think that misses the entire point of this thread.

UCRs aren't getting enough successful recruitment, because the feeders always get the first TG and often tell them to stop other TGs. Your proposed fix is then to nerf the rate of UCR recruitment, which is rather counterintuitive IMHO.

I would support a time-delay on feeder welcome TGs; they've already got the advantage by virtue of free TGs and being the low-effort solution.

[Flanderlion]

I think it'd be a bit easier to slow down the recruitment message queue(s) than to delay the welcome TG because the recruitment message queue is already throttled, so it should be tweaking existing code rather than adding new code.

Respectfully; I think that misses the entire point of this thread.

UCRs aren't getting enough successful recruitment, because the feeders always get the first TG and often tell them to stop other TGs. Your proposed fix is then to nerf the rate of UCR recruitment, which is rather counterintuitive IMHO.

I would support a time-delay on feeder welcome TGs; they've already got the advantage by virtue of free TGs and being the low-effort solution.

The issue is, that nations get spammed so much that they decide to not move at all. So by slowing down the flow a nation is more likely to move to any region.

The issue that if they move, they've got a very good chance of ending up in a bad region because TGs from good and bad UCRs are treated equally by the system. Not an easy fix, but honestly, probably should be a priority, as it's hurting the flow of new players into the game when they end up in an inactive dead end region.

[LollerLand]

In my opinion both Sedge's and Elu's ideas should be implemented concurrently. Sedge's idea helps to slightly reduce the inherent advantages feeders have over UCRs that have to spend real money and their valuable time for recruiting. Elu's idea will help to reduce the flood of telegrams that new players are treated with when they join and this could mean they might end up going through the telegrams rather than getting annoyed and ignoring all of them.

[SherpDaWerp]

Respectfully; I think that misses the entire point of this thread.

UCRs aren't getting enough successful recruitment, because the feeders always get the first TG and often tell them to stop other TGs. Your proposed fix is then to nerf the rate of UCR recruitment, which is rather counterintuitive IMHO.

I would support a time-delay on feeder welcome TGs; they've already got the advantage by virtue of free TGs and being the low-effort solution.

The issue is, that nations get spammed so much that they decide to not move at all. So by slowing down the flow a nation is more likely to move to any region.

The issue that if they move, they've got a very good chance of ending up in a bad region because TGs from good and bad UCRs are treated equally by the system. Not an easy fix, but honestly, probably should be a priority, as it's hurting the flow of new players into the game when they end up in an inactive dead end region.

It's been a hot minute since I created a new nation, but I feel like delaying the flow wouldn't help with that problem. The scenario I see with a slower flow would be someone receives a TG -> reads it -> moves region -> receives another TG, because it's been delayed -> reconsiders -> repeat until new user is kinda sick of getting given better offers.

If anything, a faster flow might help with "recruitment burnout" (like, the TGs all get sent instantly upon nation creation), because then they can read through however many waiting advertisements at their own leisure, without the stress-inducing aspect of them appearing quite rapidly while the new player watches.

But I still think the first port-of-call for moving more players out of GCRs and into UCRs has to be delaying the GCR's free advertising until at least a few other recruitment TGs have come in.

[Veaetmar]

I don’t know how effective the suggestion will be, but I have no objection to it.

One other idea is to reform the Featured Region feature to show a randomised daily region that is actively recruiting and change the text on the page to make it clear that the region is looking for new nations. The algorithm should just randomly select a region that has sent a recruitment telegram in the last 14 days. There could be something within the initial Admin telegram highlighting the page to direct people towards it as well.

It would be an additional reward to those who invest time and/or money into recruiting for their regions - as opposed to the feeders who already benefit from a disproportionate level of natural/passive recruitment. It may also encourage more recruitment from UCRs because it puts them into the lottery for becoming featured.

[Eluvatar]

I think it'd be a bit easier to slow down the recruitment message queue(s) than to delay the welcome TG because the recruitment message queue is already throttled, so it should be tweaking existing code rather than adding new code.

Respectfully; I think that misses the entire point of this thread.

UCRs aren't getting enough successful recruitment, because the feeders always get the first TG and often tell them to stop other TGs. Your proposed fix is then to nerf the rate of UCR recruitment, which is rather counterintuitive IMHO.

I would support a time-delay on feeder welcome TGs; they've already got the advantage by virtue of free TGs and being the low-effort solution.

I meant exactly what I said, no more, no less. I wasn't saying I preferred slowing the queue, only that it's easier.