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0.05% cut off for viewing stats is harsh for extreme nations

Bug reports, general help, ideas for improvements, and questions about how things are meant to work.
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Ransium
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Founded: Oct 17, 2006
Democratic Socialists

0.05% cut off for viewing stats is harsh for extreme nations

Postby Ransium » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:43 am

The 0.05% cut off for viewing stats (any stat changes with less than 0.05% impact on the overall stats are not visible when the stat changes are shown after an issue choice is made), as [v] explained it to me a while ago, was designed to prevent early nations from being overwhelmed by tons of very small changes in stats from second and tertiary effects of issues choices, and fair enough. However, for nations who have been piling on stats changes for years, this has the unintended consequence of not being able to see stats changes on issues for stat categories we have taken in very extreme directions (and likely are most concerned with). For example, I can no longer see weather changes less than or equal to two weather points, which, if I had to guess, accounts for something like 90% of all weather changes. I'm approaching a similar state with health and environmental beauty where the changes from issues that have primary impacts to this categories will not be visible to me when I make an issue choice, except in the most extreme changes. This isn't great and makes me very reliant on third party tools to understand that actual issue impact. Perhaps stats changes could be visible if they are greater than 0.05% of the total or they meet some minimum absolute threshold indictive that it is a primary effect?
Last edited by Ransium on Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:53 am, edited 2 times in total.

Mangroves are invasive to Hawaii.

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Valentine Z
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Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Valentine Z » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:47 am

Yes, I agree and concur to this. I too would like to see smaller changes, or at least give us an option so that others won't be overwhelmed by it, while some of us can still appreciate the small changes.

Going back to what I have said on another thread:
Valentine Z wrote:I'm not sure if this is relevant or still works, but it is of note that there are indeed small deltas that are hidden on the issue outcomes page. So I found two ways to this:

This was from a long while back using Stately. The smaller percentage changes are shown, and it's been confirmed by the Dev as a feature.

The HDI call. In particular, Lifespan and HDI have a lot of decimal places and if you kept on creeping down/up by 0.01 points, it won't show in the outcomes page, BUT you can do an API call before making a decision, then refresh again to see the small changes, if that is the sort of thing you like. ^^

e.g. With the next issue decision, my HDI could change from 99.7651145591965 to 99.7681145591965, and it would still show 99.77 on the stats.

I would genuinely love to see smaller changes being shown and displayed. Maybe minus the many, many decimal places of HDI, that was too much. Maybeee 3 decimal places.
Last edited by Valentine Z on Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jar Wattinree
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Postby Jar Wattinree » Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:28 am

Now this is a concern I share, as a few of my mini-maxing efforts are starting to approach that area where the stats show no real change.

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Flanderlion
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Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Flanderlion » Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:23 pm

If you have the show more stats enabled this should be displayed as well.
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Vivolkha
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vivolkha » Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:27 pm

I think the problem here is that the cut-off is a relative percentage. What if it was a certain fixed value instead?
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The Unified Missourtama States
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Postby The Unified Missourtama States » Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:30 pm

Vivolkha wrote:I think the problem here is that the cut-off is a relative percentage. What if it was a certain fixed value instead?

That would need to be decided for each stat, as they move in different increments. I think letting people seeing even the smallest of changes is fine, it can already be done through the API. To prevent new players from being confused, just add a time cooldown for stat complexing.
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Vivolkha
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Postby Vivolkha » Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:50 pm

The Unified Missourtama States wrote:
Vivolkha wrote:I think the problem here is that the cut-off is a relative percentage. What if it was a certain fixed value instead?

That would need to be decided for each stat, as they move in different increments. I think letting people seeing even the smallest of changes is fine, it can already be done through the API. To prevent new players from being confused, just add a time cooldown for stat complexing.

Just make it a toggle on/off in Settings like the "see more stats" option.
Exclusively OOC nation | Prominent stat player as Aryax
Commentary about WA resolutions is posted on a personal capacity. It should be pretty obvious given that I'm not a Delegate or even regional official of 10000 Islands, but some people still don't get it.

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Valentine Z
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Postby Valentine Z » Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:01 pm

As an addendum, I wanted to show and prove that Stately still has the precise outcomes like I have shared in my post up there. Alas, given the possible lack of updates, I cannot log into any of my nations using the app.

But yes, the app does show more stats by default and it's actually very nice for me. ^^
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If you are reading my sig, I want you to have the best day ever ! You are worth it, do not let anyone get you down !
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Land Without Shrimp
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Postby Land Without Shrimp » Mon Jan 18, 2021 7:39 am

I don't think this is something I need quite yet, but I just wanted to chime in with support for this one. It'd be a great toggle to have. (hopefully someday I'll reach the point where this is meaningful for me!)

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Ransium
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Ransium » Wed Feb 10, 2021 9:51 am

If possible I would love to hear if admin has any thoughts on this. It’s a little thing but maybe it would not be too difficult of a fix?

Mangroves are invasive to Hawaii.

Commended by SC 236,
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Author of WA Resolutions: SC 221, SC 224, SC 233, SC 243, SC 265, GA 403, GA 439, GA 445,GA 463,GA 465,
Issues Editor since January 20th, 2017 with some down time.
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Eluvatar
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Postby Eluvatar » Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:26 pm

The easiest fix could be to use the (or a fictional) median nation's stats instead of your own for the denominator. Or perhaps use both, and display if either meets the threshold. Would that work?
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Ransium
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Ransium » Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:05 pm

Eluvatar wrote:The easiest fix could be to use the (or a fictional) median nation's stats instead of your own for the denominator. Or perhaps use both, and display if either meets the threshold. Would that work?


Yes, I think this solution would work, thanks.

Mangroves are invasive to Hawaii.

Commended by SC 236,
WA Delegate of Forest from March 20th, 2007 to August 19, 2020.
Author of WA Resolutions: SC 221, SC 224, SC 233, SC 243, SC 265, GA 403, GA 439, GA 445,GA 463,GA 465,
Issues Editor since January 20th, 2017 with some down time.
Author of 27 issues. First editor of 44.
Moderator since November 10th 2017 with some down time.

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Flanderlion
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Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Flanderlion » Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:30 pm

Eluvatar wrote:The easiest fix could be to use the (or a fictional) median nation's stats instead of your own for the denominator. Or perhaps use both, and display if either meets the threshold. Would that work?

Both if possible/easy, thank you very much in advance.
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Ransium
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Postby Ransium » Sun Apr 04, 2021 5:42 am

I totally understand limited admin time etc. but I'm bumping this up as I no longer see minor but direct environmental beauty or health changes.

Mangroves are invasive to Hawaii.

Commended by SC 236,
WA Delegate of Forest from March 20th, 2007 to August 19, 2020.
Author of WA Resolutions: SC 221, SC 224, SC 233, SC 243, SC 265, GA 403, GA 439, GA 445,GA 463,GA 465,
Issues Editor since January 20th, 2017 with some down time.
Author of 27 issues. First editor of 44.
Moderator since November 10th 2017 with some down time.

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New Jacobland
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Postby New Jacobland » Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:16 pm

Have you clicked on the details button when you scroll down to the effect? I don't know if that answers your question.
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Pencil Sharpeners 2
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Postby Pencil Sharpeners 2 » Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:24 pm

I support this. I've lost the ability to see changes on various stats across my nations as the numbers get higher and higher, leaving me reliant on secondary stats which I know are linked to the stat I'm interested in.

On a semi-related note, I have a similar issue with the %stats as they approach 100% (obesity, integrity, cheerfulness etc.). This is a slightly different issue as often there is no visible stat change at all, but I know there is something going on behind the scenes (I presume for these stats there is some sort of linear hidden stat which is then mapped to the visible stat in some way)
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Vivolkha
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Postby Vivolkha » Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:01 am

New Jacobland wrote:Have you clicked on the details button when you scroll down to the effect? I don't know if that answers your question.

No. The cut off is absolute. Changes smaller than 0.05% still don't show there.

Pencil Sharpeners 2 wrote:I support this. I've lost the ability to see changes on various stats across my nations as the numbers get higher and higher, leaving me reliant on secondary stats which I know are linked to the stat I'm interested in.

On a semi-related note, I have a similar issue with the %stats as they approach 100% (obesity, integrity, cheerfulness etc.). This is a slightly different issue as often there is no visible stat change at all, but I know there is something going on behind the scenes (I presume for these stats there is some sort of linear hidden stat which is then mapped to the visible stat in some way)

I remember being told that basically all visible stats depend in turn on hidden stats. I have the same problem with Ideological Radicality in a puppet - even when there is no stat change, something is moving behind the scenes.
Exclusively OOC nation | Prominent stat player as Aryax
Commentary about WA resolutions is posted on a personal capacity. It should be pretty obvious given that I'm not a Delegate or even regional official of 10000 Islands, but some people still don't get it.

Check out my Dispatch guides!
How to build a realistic totalitarian state | How to start with any nation type (UPDATED)

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Sedgistan
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Founded: Oct 20, 2006
Anarchy

Postby Sedgistan » Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:03 am

I've put a request in to admin for this to be addressed. There's a few ways it could be done; I've suggested whatever is easiest for admin to implement should be fine.

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[violet]
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Postby [violet] » Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:06 am

This is now implemented, and you should see stat changes when they are more than 0.05% of the standard deviation for that census scale, too, even if that's less than 0.05% of your nation's score.

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Valentine Z
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Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Valentine Z » Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:45 am

I put this here and deleted my OP to prevent clutter.

Image

Very nice. Thanks, Violet! ♥
Val's Stuff. ♡ ^_^ ♡ For You
If you are reading my sig, I want you to have the best day ever ! You are worth it, do not let anyone get you down !
Glory to De Geweldige Sierlijke Katachtige Utopia en Zijne Autonome Machten ov Valentine Z !
(✿◠‿◠) ☆ \(^_^)/ ☆ =^._.^= ∫

Issues Thread 4th in Gen Sec Photography Stuff Project: Save F7. Stats Analysis

The Sixty! Opinions Deposit! Valentian Stories! Gwen's Adventures! Cat Anthem! Valentian News.
Q & A Here! | Heights of NS! | F7 Etiquette

Clarissa mistaken for Smurf/Avatar: 14
Valentijn Misgendered: 59
Valentijn now a She!

• Never trouble trouble until trouble troubles you.
• As a wise man once said: 我等は砲兵 皇国の護り (We are Artillery Guardians of the Empire).
• World Map is a cat playing with Australia.

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Flanderlion
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Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Flanderlion » Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:20 am

I like, thank you very much. Think it'll take a bit of getting used to seeing a lot more changes than before.
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Ransium
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Founded: Oct 17, 2006
Democratic Socialists

Postby Ransium » Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:55 am

Thank you!

Mangroves are invasive to Hawaii.

Commended by SC 236,
WA Delegate of Forest from March 20th, 2007 to August 19, 2020.
Author of WA Resolutions: SC 221, SC 224, SC 233, SC 243, SC 265, GA 403, GA 439, GA 445,GA 463,GA 465,
Issues Editor since January 20th, 2017 with some down time.
Author of 27 issues. First editor of 44.
Moderator since November 10th 2017 with some down time.

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Pencil Sharpeners 2
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Founded: Aug 21, 2015
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Pencil Sharpeners 2 » Wed Nov 03, 2021 3:52 pm

Noticed this immediately when answering issues -very useful, thanks!
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Former LC member and MoRA in TSP
Highest ranked solo player in N-Day 2, finishing 10th
Currently the holder of 7 World #1 badges

"NS is an endless escher stairway of crazy" - Seraph/Erinor
"Laws aren't as important as statistics!" - Amerion

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Land Without Shrimp
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Founded: Apr 12, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Land Without Shrimp » Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:30 am

Wow - just saw this today. Got a .006% increase in food quality :D Thanks much for making this change, very much appreciated!! :)


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