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Making Approvals Removable only by Delegate

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Kenmoria
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Making Approvals Removable only by Delegate

Postby Kenmoria » Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:33 am

This is a suggestion that was created from discussions in the North Pacific WA Symposium about update-bumping. In the discussion, viewable on the Discord server for anyone interested, I raised an idea about a technical way to limit the practice while not affecting too many other topics. The suggestion is that approvals given by delegates to WA proposals can be removed only by the delegate that instated them, and aren’t removed if the delegate loses power. Clearly, this would prevent update-bumping as well as a coup suddenly changing a delegate’s approvals, which I feel would help make the GA game in particular fairer, since unrelated Gameplay actions cannot affect perfectly innocent proposals.

There would still be the ability to counter-campaign in order to prevent a proposal from making it to vote, and raiding and defending as a whole wouldn’t be affected. This is just a technical suggestion to limit update-bumping, particularly its impact on unrelated proposals, though I of course have no idea whether this feasible or even possible from a coding standpoint.

EDIT: The idea has been dropped, thank you for your feedback.
Last edited by Kenmoria on Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Graintfjall
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Postby Graintfjall » Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:03 am

The discussion did not not provide any evidence that "update bumping" is having the kind of serious deleterious effect on the WA that therefore requires admin intervention.
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The Nation of the People of the Nation
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Postby The Nation of the People of the Nation » Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:08 am

This would never, ever work. Say I made 80 puppets each with their own region. In one update I could become delegate of each one, approve of the resolution, resign, and go to my next puppet. Thus it creates a real problem, 2 people could push something to at vote.

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Old Hope
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Postby Old Hope » Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:09 am

Graintfjall wrote:The discussion did not not provide any evidence that "update bumping" is having the kind of serious deleterious effect on the WA that therefore requires admin intervention.

At least not at the moment. If this changes in the future, this could be revisited. But this should be reserved for approvals in any kind if it is ever necessary, but the tactic has been known for some time, and the gameplayers have shunned daily update bumping for the reason that it would create negative effects possibly - actually, likely - requiring admin intervention.
Plus this:
The Nation of the People of the Nation wrote:This would never, ever work. Say I made 80 puppets each with their own region. In one update I could become delegate of each one, approve of the resolution, resign, and go to my next puppet. Thus it creates a real problem, 2 people could push something to at vote.
Last edited by Old Hope on Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Sedgistan
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Postby Sedgistan » Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:35 am

As a 1-endorsement Delegate who's been "bumped" by both Right to Life (for GA purposes) and The Black Hawks (SC purposes) in recent months, I don't actually mind this practice. I think it adds a fun element to the game. It can also come back to bite if a group that's been bumping Delegates off previously then wants their approvals for their own proposals.

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Sail Nation
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Postby Sail Nation » Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:03 pm

Just throwing this out there, but could it be possible for there to be a 2 update (1 day) period in which new delegates can't approvals. This means that last-minute approval raids aren't possible. I don't know whether this would be a good compromise or a 'worst of both worlds' situation.
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Refuge Isle
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Postby Refuge Isle » Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:27 pm

Sail Nation wrote:Just throwing this out there, but could it be possible for there to be a 2 update (1 day) period in which new delegates can't approvals. This means that last-minute approval raids aren't possible. I don't know whether this would be a good compromise or a 'worst of both worlds' situation.

This would definitely be the latter. It would mean that the current system would be all the more susceptible to quorum raiding in the first place because it's guaranteed that their approvals would be out for a set amount of time. As it stands now, delegates are able to recover their knocked approvals by the next time they update, which is much harder to keep out of influence from a raider perspective.
Last edited by Refuge Isle on Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Old Hope
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Postby Old Hope » Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:56 pm

It's pretty simple. If approval raiding is not common, it is nothing the admins need to be concerned about.
If some people do daily approval raids knocking off almost all proposals then it is a problem that needs to be addressed.
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All Wild Things
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Postby All Wild Things » Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:02 pm

It's been at least twice this year it's happened.
I think part of the problem is that people don't even realise this is a thing.
An automated TG telling you your approval had been removed would at least keep you informed, but without making any complicated changes to the existing system.
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Kenmoria
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Postby Kenmoria » Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:52 pm

Following further thought about delegate bumping and the desirability thereof, and keeping in mind the feedback received here, I think it would be best if this idea is dropped. Update bumping could need a technical fix if it stops activity in the GA or SC, but currently it just adds a new dimension to the Gameplay metagame.
Hello! I’m a GAer and NS Roleplayer from the United Kingdom.
My pronouns are he/him.
Any posts that I make as GenSec will be clearly marked as such and OOC. Conversely, my IC ambassador in the General Assembly is Ambassador Fortier. I’m always happy to discuss ideas about proposals, particularly if grammar or wording are in issue. I am also Executive Deputy Minister for the WA Ministry of TNP.
Kenmoria is an illiberal yet democratic nation pursuing the goals of communism in a semi-effective fashion. It has a very broad diplomatic presence despite being economically developing, mainly to seek help in recovering from the effect of a recent civil war. Read the factbook here for more information; perhaps, I will eventually finish it.

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Areulder
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Postby Areulder » Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:04 pm

The Nation of the People of the Nation wrote:This would never, ever work. Say I made 80 puppets each with their own region. In one update I could become delegate of each one, approve of the resolution, resign, and go to my next puppet. Thus it creates a real problem, 2 people could push something to at vote.

That's different, as you wouldn't be in the WA anymore.

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Fauxia
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Postby Fauxia » Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:35 pm

All Wild Things wrote:It's been at least twice this year it's happened.
I think part of the problem is that people don't even realise this is a thing.
An automated TG telling you your approval had been removed would at least keep you informed, but without making any complicated changes to the existing system.

You do get a telegram that your delegacy ended.
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All Wild Things
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Postby All Wild Things » Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:56 pm

Fauxia wrote:
All Wild Things wrote:It's been at least twice this year it's happened.
I think part of the problem is that people don't even realise this is a thing.
An automated TG telling you your approval had been removed would at least keep you informed, but without making any complicated changes to the existing system.

You do get a telegram that your delegacy ended.

So you do! I'd forgotten. It would be really easy to include a warning that any approvals were cancelled in the TG.
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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:04 pm

All Wild Things wrote:
Fauxia wrote:You do get a telegram that your delegacy ended.

So you do! I'd forgotten. It would be really easy to include a warning that any approvals were cancelled in the TG.

That would certainly seem reasonable to me, even just in the sense of letting you know what benefits & powers you've lost

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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:35 am

All Wild Things wrote:
Fauxia wrote:You do get a telegram that your delegacy ended.

So you do! I'd forgotten. It would be really easy to include a warning that any approvals were cancelled in the TG.

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Fauxia
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Postby Fauxia » Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:44 pm

Yeah, good point. Seems like an easy fix.
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My opinions do not represent any NS governments I may happen to be in (yeah right), any RL governments I may happen to be in (yeah right), the CIA, the NSA, the FBI. the Freemasons, the Illuminati, Opus Dei, the Knights Templar, the Organization for the Advancement of Cultural Marxism, Opus Dei, or any other organization. Unless I say they do, in which case, there is a nonzero chance.


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