by Roavin » Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:56 pm
by Ballotonia » Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:08 pm
by Iris and Metis » Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:42 am
by Sedgistan » Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:34 am
Iris and Metis wrote:At the moment it's only of a scale and limited group of nations that it could easily be stopped, made illegal and we all move on actually having fun competing on the previous playing field.
by Refuge Isle » Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:42 am
Iris and Metis wrote:Considered posting this a while ago but delayed because I do appreciate the ingenuity - but this isn't good for the game
It's deliberately fucking with/slowing down game mechanics and I just don't think that is a healthy way for r/d to go, or something that should be game legal
Appreciate your suggested countermove, which we have already done for some regions where possible but if raiders get their first to the best buffer region in the pack then the whole of r/d is broken and frankly its killed what could have been a historic event in r/d. Encouraging additional layers of fucking with update isn't a positive solution for defenders and the more this continues the more it is going to break the game and result in both sides having to maintain mountains of puppets.
At the moment it's only of a scale and limited group of nations that it could easily be stopped, made illegal and we all move on actually having fun competing on the previous playing field. Really don't think this is a positive way for the game to be going.
by Roavin » Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:52 am
Ballotonia wrote:As I pointed out in Discord, one possible countermove would be to create your own 'buffer region' before the target region (but after the region the other side created), and doing some update 'flattening/unbending' (I'm sure you can come up with a better term for it). Your trigger would then be in a region you control yourself.
by Iris and Metis » Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:13 am
Sedgistan wrote:It could but that would open up a whole can of worms for future moderating of update movements that would be a nightmare for players and moderators.
If this needs a solution from site staff, it would have to be a technical one.
by Ballotonia » Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:15 am
Roavin wrote:While I sincerely appreciate the suggestion, that won't work in practice because raiders know ahead of time what their target is and can snag the available "bender" regions beforehand.
by Awesomeland012345 » Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:23 am
Iris and Metis wrote:It is deliberately manipulating the game mechanics
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by Iris and Metis » Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:41 am
Ballotonia wrote:Roavin wrote:While I sincerely appreciate the suggestion, that won't work in practice because raiders know ahead of time what their target is and can snag the available "bender" regions beforehand.
The KNOWN 'bender' regions.
Back in the day when I was a defender we didn't sit back and wait for someone to create a region which was late in the update to have a good jumping point. We created them. Brand new ones, with names never seen before.
Ballotonia
by Roavin » Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:54 am
Ballotonia wrote:The KNOWN 'bender' regions.
Back in the day when I was a defender we didn't sit back and wait for someone to create a region which was late in the update to have a good jumping point. We created them. Brand new ones, with names never seen before.
by RiderSyl » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:18 am
by Roavin » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:53 am
RiderSyl wrote:this was done before when Bob Moran created suchasmallthing. liberations continued and defenderdom didn't die that day either
RiderSyl wrote:this is melodramatic salt borne out of Roavin getting ragged on in the TBH Discord last night.
by Ballotonia » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:59 am
Iris and Metis wrote:Ballo, we will literally sit and create thousands more regions to get the perfect slot - but is that really what you and the team want?
Iris and Metis wrote:One technical solution is that refounded regions dont get the same place in the order, accompanied with a reshuffle - but without a ban it wouldn't prevent this from happening any way (or us creating the aforementioned region boom). Again, this is going to annoy farr more people than just 'lets not do that pls'.
by Refuge Isle » Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:12 am
Roavin wrote:Fourth, I've just been told by two people (including one Council member) that the last mention of me in TBH Discord was 8 days ago.
So, uh, what are you talking about?
Ballotonia wrote:From a technical perspective, this is very easy to implement in the current code base. Whether it should be done is another consideration entirely, and for starters I think all stakeholders should have the opportunity to comment on it. Especially the 'other side'.
by Mallorea and Riva » Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:44 am
Ballotonia wrote:[Iris and Metis wrote:One technical solution is that refounded regions dont get the same place in the order, accompanied with a reshuffle - but without a ban it wouldn't prevent this from happening any way (or us creating the aforementioned region boom). Again, this is going to annoy farr more people than just 'lets not do that pls'.
From a technical perspective, this is very easy to implement in the current code base. Whether it should be done is another consideration entirely, and for starters I think all stakeholders should have the opportunity to comment on it. Especially the 'other side'.
I'm happy there is now at least one suggestion which can be discussed and considered. No guarantees on what, if anything, will be implemented.
by Unibot III » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:13 am
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
by Iris and Metis » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:16 am
Refuge Isle wrote:Jumping early versus not at all - when 90 updaters are attending a liberation, this seems preferential.
Refuge Isle wrote:Asking the owners of other regions if they may be used for the purposes of liberating a neighbour - Tic Tacs was not the region before SP, it was fourth.
Tic Tacs was refounded for this purpose. Perhaps there were others, defenders have the same ability to save update orders as raiders do
Placing hidden nations that are known to update late amongst the vast sea of raider puppets in order to have nation triggers that are not under enemy control - worth a shot, right?
Using a region that updates immediately before the bend region as a reliable trigger, for it is not plausible to change a bend region's update times dramatically within two minutes, even for me.
Unibot III wrote:You'd need a large invader update source to do some proper damage to the update accuracy unless they're doubling, tripling, or quadrupling up on puppets.
Mallorea and Riva wrote:Whether making this technique more difficult is a good thing isn't something admin can be expected to determine yet.
by Unibot III » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:27 am
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
by Miss Bad Life Choices » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:35 am
Unibot III wrote:I think the first question is: is this an administrative question? Or is this more appropriately a moderation question.
Puppet flooding is one of the most serious offences on the books.
Currently, if liberators want to throw off an invader delegate by flooding the target region with non-WA puppets alongside the WA forces, they are allowed to do so - but defenders were always advised by game moderators to keep the number of non-WA puppets down to one per person to avoid running afoul of the puppet flooding rule. So when defenders deployed this tactic, we would assign the task of "creating cover" to sympathetic WA Delegates (who wanted to help but didn't have a WA nation to use in the liberation).
So are invaders moving mass amounts of nations to throw update off? And are they representing the same one-to-one ratio we tried our best to respect in the past? It seems unfair to me to see puppet flooding enforced for defenders and unenforced for invaders.
If, say, twenty invader updaters are moving puppets around - how much would that impact update these days? 1.8 seconds? You'd need a large invader update source to do some proper damage to the update accuracy unless they're doubling, tripling, or quadrupling up on puppets.
I would strongly suggest that you don't seek out an administrative solution to this problem. Admins tinkering with the order would in all likelihood work against both sides in gameplay, since the changes that admins seek usually favour stochastic gameplay over a skills-based one.
If it's not puppet flooding, or the rules interpreting puppet flooding have otherwise changed, one way to combat this strategy (and you may have thought of this already) is to respond to their update bending with a significant counter-force where you plan in advance to plump the preceding region with a massive force of your own, chewing up more update time, to throw the invader delegate off (who is expecting update to happen earlier) and give you a short window of time to evaluate how many nations they added to update to account for them. That way no matter how much crap they chuck at the region, you've got a bit more time to figure out when your move is. Since you'll know the number of nations you're plumping in advance, you can factor that into your equation in advance of the liberation. Hope that helps.
Personally though this is all sounds like a massive breach of the puppet flooding rule though that should have been administrated.
Unibot III wrote:
If they're moving a 1000 puppets each to bend update, that is almost surely puppet flooding. Military gameplayers have been permanently kicked out of the WA for a lot less. How can this not be a major case of puppet flooding if they're moving 1000s of puppets?
by Refuge Isle » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:44 am
by Unibot III » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:47 am
Eluvatar wrote:Moving puppets into your own region is not considered puppet flooding.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
by Custadia » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:51 am
Ballotonia wrote:The KNOWN 'bender' regions.
Back in the day when I was a defender we didn't sit back and wait for someone to create a region which was late in the update to have a good jumping point. We created them. Brand new ones, with names never seen before.
Ballotonia
by Devi » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:54 am
Roavin wrote:First, the likelihood of finding an acceptable region is much lower. In the situation described in OP, the raiders owned two bender regions, one of which was exactly before the target region. Given just over 23k regions in the world and assuming an even, linear distribution of whatever hash is used to calculate position (a generous assumption), that requires ~17k regions to be founded after every big raid to have only a 50% chance of finding an appropriate bender region. That's 170 defenders using 100 puppets each for a 50-50 "maybe we'll find one".
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