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Liberations are now literally impossible

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Roavin
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Liberations are now literally impossible

Postby Roavin » Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:56 pm

Raiders have now discovered the technique of "update bending", also called "triggerfucking" in some circumstances. This technique has been known (and selectively used) by defenders for years, but raiders have now discovered it to brutal effect.

To those uninitiated: Regions update in a random but deterministic order. In military gameplay, the way operations are timed is by checking when prior regions/nations have updated; these nations/regions are selected by estimating (through a variety of means) how long before the target region they update. "Update bending" is quickly flooding or emptying regions very close to the target region to throw off such timings.

What happened now is the following: Defenders have, for two updates in a row, assembled the largest updater force in history, at 90 and 86 updaters, respectively (the previous record was 82 with The NSIA back in late 2016; usually a force of 30-40 is considered large). We were aware that the invaders had been update bending hard, so we took precautions. At the last minor update, they moved a lot of nations but ultimately our 3 separate triggers failed due to bad luck and human error. At this last major update, however, Defenders prepared by making a script on short notice that could accurately pinpoint suitable nations for triggering. The script takes about 15-25 seconds, as it pulls the data fresh from the server to calculate it. The script was run at the calculated 2 minute warning, but then the raider started moving and ejecting at that point too. Coupled with some ridiculous variance that threw off my linear calculation (I did not have time on short notice to add the more accurate statistical approach, though the difference here would be marginal), and by the time the people had opened the page to call the trigger it had already updated.

It's already an uphill battle for defenders, for a number of reasons (pilers vs. updaters, BC ROs, etc.); there is no longer a way to have acceptably accurate/precise moves into a region. If the trigger is too short, nobody updates; if the trigger is too long, the raider delegate plus their border control officers will simply banject incoming nations at one per second. Margins of 10-20 additional updaters simply don't exist in any practical situation. All this time, defenders at least had it in their hands to time their entry into the region - long enough that everybody (even on a phone) can get in, short enough to minimize the margin for banjections. This is now in the raider's hands as well.

In other words: This is basically game over for the defender military game.

Now: What can be done about this? I don't know. I suspect some on the opposing side will claim that we just need to "get better" again, but there always was a way to get better (and we did aplenty in the past few years) and this is no longer the case. I don't know if this is something that site administration even wants to address at this point - vulnerable regions will simply get raided and griefed, and that's just how the game is. So maybe nothing. But I don't know how it could be "fixed" either to restore at least a semblance of balance to an already skewed game of raiders vs. defenders. I'm drawing an absolute blank.

I don't really have a question; but I felt it's something that's worth pointing out and maybe discussing.
Last edited by Roavin on Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RoavinMinister of Foreign Affairs from the South Pacific

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Ballotonia
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Postby Ballotonia » Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:08 pm

Greetings,

Core problem is that making it easier for Defenders to Liberate a region also makes it easier for Invaders to invade a region in the first place, and harder for Defenders to defend at the moment of invasion. From a technical perspective, a liberation attempt is exactly the same as an invasion since the game code cannot not judge on reasons and intent.

As I pointed out in Discord, one possible countermove would be to create your own 'buffer region' before the target region (but after the region the other side created), and doing some update 'flattening/unbending' (I'm sure you can come up with a better term for it). Your trigger would then be in a region you control yourself.

It should be noted that as layers of strategy are piled up, GP is getting more and more complicated...

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Postby Iris and Metis » Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:42 am

Considered posting this a while ago but delayed because I do appreciate the ingenuity - but this isn't good for the game

It's deliberately fucking with/slowing down game mechanics and I just don't think that is a healthy way for r/d to go, or something that should be game legal

Appreciate your suggested countermove, which we have already done for some regions where possible but if raiders get their first to the best buffer region in the pack then the whole of r/d is broken and frankly its killed what could have been a historic event in r/d. Encouraging additional layers of fucking with update isn't a positive solution for defenders and the more this continues the more it is going to break the game and result in both sides having to maintain mountains of puppets.

At the moment it's only of a scale and limited group of nations that it could easily be stopped, made illegal and we all move on actually having fun competing on the previous playing field. Really don't think this is a positive way for the game to be going.
Last edited by Iris and Metis on Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Sedgistan » Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:34 am

Iris and Metis wrote:At the moment it's only of a scale and limited group of nations that it could easily be stopped, made illegal and we all move on actually having fun competing on the previous playing field.

It could but that would open up a whole can of worms for future moderating of update movements that would be a nightmare for players and moderators.

If this needs a solution from site staff, it would have to be a technical one.

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Postby Refuge Isle » Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:42 am

Iris and Metis wrote:Considered posting this a while ago but delayed because I do appreciate the ingenuity - but this isn't good for the game

It's deliberately fucking with/slowing down game mechanics and I just don't think that is a healthy way for r/d to go, or something that should be game legal

Appreciate your suggested countermove, which we have already done for some regions where possible but if raiders get their first to the best buffer region in the pack then the whole of r/d is broken and frankly its killed what could have been a historic event in r/d. Encouraging additional layers of fucking with update isn't a positive solution for defenders and the more this continues the more it is going to break the game and result in both sides having to maintain mountains of puppets.

At the moment it's only of a scale and limited group of nations that it could easily be stopped, made illegal and we all move on actually having fun competing on the previous playing field. Really don't think this is a positive way for the game to be going.

Strictly speaking, it isn't slowing down the game or breaking update. Nations that would need to be processed either way were moved to be processed earlier. Last major lasted two hours, twenty nine minutes and five seconds. The one before that was two hours, twenty nine minutes and eight seconds. Their placement before South Pacific does not seem to have damaged update as a whole.

It was an historic event either way.
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Postby Roavin » Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:52 am

Ballotonia wrote:As I pointed out in Discord, one possible countermove would be to create your own 'buffer region' before the target region (but after the region the other side created), and doing some update 'flattening/unbending' (I'm sure you can come up with a better term for it). Your trigger would then be in a region you control yourself.


While I sincerely appreciate the suggestion, that won't work in practice because raiders know ahead of time what their target is and can snag the available "bender" regions beforehand.
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Postby Iris and Metis » Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:13 am

It is deliberately manipulating the game mechanics rather than simply playing within them parameters of them to give raiders an advantage they frankly don't need.

If you think that's cool then see how you feel when the whole game becomes increasingly inaccessible to any new players and uncompetitive. It simply isn't a game worth playing if the only way you win is by being the person to hold the right region in the update order for that occupation. Having multiple BC officers is already OP for raiders without taking away the ability for defenders to make precision jumps.

It cuts both ways. We can adapt, spy on you all more and screw up your triggers on jumps so that your new recruits spend 45 minutes waiting for a jump that never comes and miss out on any kind of fun - but I sincerely don't think that is a good trajectory for the game and don't see how anyone else can think that. We can keep creating useless regions until we find one that sits in the perfect position, but that's going to break the game more. We can create thousands of puppets like you and break the game more too. But what is the point, who is any of that actually fun for?

Sedgistan wrote:It could but that would open up a whole can of worms for future moderating of update movements that would be a nightmare for players and moderators.

If this needs a solution from site staff, it would have to be a technical one.


I really don't think that is true. This is a tactic that only a few of the most committed r/ders are going to exploit until we're told not to. Call it illegal, it will stop there and then and will largely be self-policed. If puppet flooding can be handled on a case by case basis then the rare occasions this might be used could be easily evidenced in a GHR simply because of the sheer volumes of nations and the specific regions used.
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Postby Ballotonia » Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:15 am

Roavin wrote:While I sincerely appreciate the suggestion, that won't work in practice because raiders know ahead of time what their target is and can snag the available "bender" regions beforehand.


The KNOWN 'bender' regions.

Back in the day when I was a defender we didn't sit back and wait for someone to create a region which was late in the update to have a good jumping point. We created them. Brand new ones, with names never seen before.

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Postby Awesomeland012345 » Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:23 am

Iris and Metis wrote:It is deliberately manipulating the game mechanics

that's basically R/D...
it was just supposed to WADs got more power. Raiders and defenders exploited that.
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Postby Iris and Metis » Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:41 am

Ballotonia wrote:
Roavin wrote:While I sincerely appreciate the suggestion, that won't work in practice because raiders know ahead of time what their target is and can snag the available "bender" regions beforehand.


The KNOWN 'bender' regions.

Back in the day when I was a defender we didn't sit back and wait for someone to create a region which was late in the update to have a good jumping point. We created them. Brand new ones, with names never seen before.

Ballotonia


Ballo, we will literally sit and create thousands more regions to get the perfect slot - but is that really what you and the team want?

One technical solution is that refounded regions dont get the same place in the order, accompanied with a reshuffle - but without a ban it wouldn't prevent this from happening any way (or us creating the aforementioned region boom). Again, this is going to annoy farr more people than just 'lets not do that pls'.
Last edited by Iris and Metis on Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Roavin » Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:54 am

Ballotonia wrote:The KNOWN 'bender' regions.

Back in the day when I was a defender we didn't sit back and wait for someone to create a region which was late in the update to have a good jumping point. We created them. Brand new ones, with names never seen before.


The advantage of founding regions for JPs is that there is a much looser requirement for "good enough" than would be required for this scenario. Your suggestion is impractical for several reasons:

First, the likelihood of finding an acceptable region is much lower. In the situation described in OP, the raiders owned two bender regions, one of which was exactly before the target region. Given just over 23k regions in the world and assuming an even, linear distribution of whatever hash is used to calculate position (a generous assumption), that requires ~17k regions to be founded after every big raid to have only a 50% chance of finding an appropriate bender region. That's 170 defenders using 100 puppets each for a 50-50 "maybe we'll find one".

Second, this has to be done for every new region raided since the last update shuffle, and for any previous raids for which new, closer benders were found. While much of the actual checking can be automated, that's a ridiculous amount of work every time. Jump points are find-once-and-forget.

Thid, if it's a new, never-before-seen region, we don't know when it updates until it has updated once; ergo 12-hour liberations with this technique are not viable.
Last edited by Roavin on Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:00 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby RiderSyl » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:18 am

this was done before when Bob Moran created suchasmallthing. liberations continued and defenderdom didn't die that day either

this is melodramatic salt borne out of Roavin getting ragged on in the TBH Discord last night.
Last edited by RiderSyl on Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:21 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Roavin » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:53 am

RiderSyl wrote:this was done before when Bob Moran created suchasmallthing. liberations continued and defenderdom didn't die that day either


There's a big difference between it being done once to throw off one trigger, and the systemic (and brutally effective) use for the duration of South Pacific's occupation.

RiderSyl wrote:this is melodramatic salt borne out of Roavin getting ragged on in the TBH Discord last night.


Ok this is weird for a number of reasons.

First, if they ragged on me because of my misapprehension after minor yesterday or even after major ... yeah, that'd be fair game, and you know me well enough that I don't really take issue with that sort of thing.

Second, besides the clickbaity title, I don't think I've been that melodramatic, though I'll leave that to others to judge (because obviously I'm biased).

Third, I'm not in TBH Discord and I don't care enough to read log dumps all the time.

Fourth, I've just been told by two people (including one Council member) that the last mention of me in TBH Discord was 8 days ago.

So, uh, what are you talking about?
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Postby Ballotonia » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:59 am

Iris and Metis wrote:Ballo, we will literally sit and create thousands more regions to get the perfect slot - but is that really what you and the team want?


No preference, really. You decide what you want to achieve, what you think are your options (within game rules, of course) and how they score in cost / risk / reward. What you choose to do is up to you.

Iris and Metis wrote:One technical solution is that refounded regions dont get the same place in the order, accompanied with a reshuffle - but without a ban it wouldn't prevent this from happening any way (or us creating the aforementioned region boom). Again, this is going to annoy farr more people than just 'lets not do that pls'.


From a technical perspective, this is very easy to implement in the current code base. Whether it should be done is another consideration entirely, and for starters I think all stakeholders should have the opportunity to comment on it. Especially the 'other side'.

I'm happy there is now at least one suggestion which can be discussed and considered. No guarantees on what, if anything, will be implemented.

@Roavin: the option I put forth would of course only be needed in case a bender region is created, which is not even remotely every region invaded. Plus there's a way to do that way way more efficiently than you describe (leaving you to figure that one out for yourself), and when I created Kyzikos back in the day it was the very last region, not merely 'close enough'. I also had created quite a number of others which were very very close. By myself, in two days worth of updates, with just a few dozen puppets. Don't tell me something cannot be done when I've already done it ;)

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Postby Refuge Isle » Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:12 am

Roavin wrote:Fourth, I've just been told by two people (including one Council member) that the last mention of me in TBH Discord was 8 days ago.

So, uh, what are you talking about?

I assume "The NSGP server" was the intended message.

Ballotonia wrote:From a technical perspective, this is very easy to implement in the current code base. Whether it should be done is another consideration entirely, and for starters I think all stakeholders should have the opportunity to comment on it. Especially the 'other side'.

At the moment, it seems like it's just another possible strategy in r/d. It doesn't damage the game to create this region, and it isn't the end-all of liberations. If the technique is used, a variety of counter methods may be employed to create a more reasonable liberation attempt. Including, but not limited to:

Jumping early versus not at all - when 90 updaters are attending a liberation, this seems preferential.

Asking the owners of other regions if they may be used for the purposes of liberating a neighbour - Tic Tacs was not the region before SP, it was fourth.

Tic Tacs was refounded for this purpose. Perhaps there were others, defenders have the same ability to save update orders as raiders do

Placing hidden nations that are known to update late amongst the vast sea of raider puppets in order to have nation triggers that are not under enemy control - worth a shot, right?

Using a region that updates immediately before the bend region as a reliable trigger, for it is not plausible to change a bend region's update times dramatically within two minutes, even for me.


Ultimately, this thread is an observation that defender scripts did not work, not that triggering for liberations is a lost cause now.
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Postby Mallorea and Riva » Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:44 am

Ballotonia wrote:[
Iris and Metis wrote:One technical solution is that refounded regions dont get the same place in the order, accompanied with a reshuffle - but without a ban it wouldn't prevent this from happening any way (or us creating the aforementioned region boom). Again, this is going to annoy farr more people than just 'lets not do that pls'.


From a technical perspective, this is very easy to implement in the current code base. Whether it should be done is another consideration entirely, and for starters I think all stakeholders should have the opportunity to comment on it. Especially the 'other side'.

I'm happy there is now at least one suggestion which can be discussed and considered. No guarantees on what, if anything, will be implemented.

While I appreciate fenda frustration with what happened (and credit to those who made it so), a sample size of one is usually not a great launching point for technical changes. The above technical idea does go some way to make this technique more difficult, though not impossible. Whether making this technique more difficult is a good thing isn't something admin can be expected to determine yet.
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Postby Unibot III » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:13 am

Hi there Roavin.

First: congratulations, Roavin. It's an enormous accomplishment to organize a field of defenders that size, and I know you and others must be deeply exasperated by this situation.

When Spartz and I discovered triggering way back in the day, we always suspected update bending would be a vulnerability that would eventually be exploited.

I think the first question is: is this an administrative question? Or is this more appropriately a moderation question.

Puppet flooding is one of the most serious offences on the books.

Currently, if liberators want to throw off an invader delegate by flooding the target region with non-WA puppets alongside the WA forces, they are allowed to do so - but defenders were always advised by game moderators to keep the number of non-WA puppets down to one per person to avoid running afoul of the puppet flooding rule. So when defenders deployed this tactic, we would assign the task of "creating cover" to sympathetic WA Delegates (who wanted to help but didn't have a WA nation to use in the liberation).

So are invaders moving mass amounts of nations to throw update off? And are they representing the same one-to-one ratio we tried our best to respect in the past? It seems unfair to me to see puppet flooding enforced for defenders and unenforced for invaders.

If, say, twenty invader updaters are moving puppets around - how much would that impact update these days? 0.18 seconds? You'd need a large invader update source to do some proper damage to the update accuracy unless they're doubling, tripling, or quadrupling up on puppets.

I would strongly suggest that you don't seek out an administrative solution to this problem. Admins tinkering with the order would in all likelihood work against both sides in gameplay, since the changes that admins seek usually favour stochastic gameplay over a skills-based one.

If it's not puppet flooding, or the rules interpreting puppet flooding have otherwise changed, one way to combat this strategy (and you may have thought of this already) is to respond to their update bending with a significant counter-force where you plan in advance to plump the preceding region with a massive force of your own, chewing up more update time, to throw the invader delegate off (who is expecting update to happen earlier) and give you a short window of time to evaluate how many nations they added to update to account for them. That way no matter how much crap they chuck at the region, you've got a bit more time to figure out when your move is. Since you'll know the number of nations you're plumping in advance, you can factor that into your equation in advance of the liberation. Hope that helps.

Personally though this is all sounds like a massive breach of the puppet flooding rule though that should have been administrated.
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Postby Iris and Metis » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:16 am

Anyone who thinks that Roavin would post this without going through all the other possibilities clearly doesn't know Roavin. Defenders will adapt to whatever they have to adapt to, as well as we can. We pointlessly chased predator raiders update after update for the rare wins and that didn't stop us. We found ways to near instantaneously react to tag raids and found every efficiency possible to achieve that. Roavin has been working as hard as anyone behind the scenes to try and counter this. That skill and innovation is only cultivated within a competitive and fun game environment.

Bottom line is that this tactic can make it near impossible for one side to even stand a chance of liberating certain regions purely on the basis of one nation holding the right region, whilst the other side has the easiest job in the world already and will get a completely disproportionate benefit if this is allowed to continue.

Refuge Isle wrote:Jumping early versus not at all - when 90 updaters are attending a liberation, this seems preferential.


You stretched the timings by 1 min 22 seconds at last minor and 2 mins 30 at major. Jumping before that 'bending' just isn't going to be a viable option against an active raider delegate with that much delay.

Most raider delegates take about 6/7 seconds to get their first ban in but then quickly ban at around 1 nation every 3/4 seconds if they are competent - speeding up as defender forces get into the region en masse. That would give them the time to ban 24/25 nations before update at minor (assuming the first takes 7 seconds, the next three take 4s and the rest take 3s) and 47 nations at major. Certain raider leads will be significantly faster once in a rhythm.

A minor raid is likely to be piled to 60 endos by major, and with bans would be requiring a minimum of 107 WAs (arriving on time) for an instant liberation. A major to minor liberation would still require a minimum of 85 WAs. The former has never been achieved in my memory and the latter occurred yesterday for the first time any of us have seen - with many non-regulars taking part and unable to be relied upon for future operations.

I'd love this to be a viable option but it simply won't be on most occasions. Pulling 90+ WAs involved a major recruitment effort with independent/feeder support over a week. For every BC RO the required number potentially increases commensurately. If your recruitment to the cause takes 4/5 days then you're contending with five BC officers ready to ban at the same rate, as well as a far bigger pile (which could be up to 120 from recent experience). At minor, a 120 endo pile with four BC ROs would require a native endorsement count plus updater count of 220 WAs to liberate on an early jump with the maths above.

There is just no reality where this is a viable option, and if there was a day when 220 defender WAs at update was realistic - its a certainty that the raider numbers would also be significantly higher too.

Refuge Isle wrote:Asking the owners of other regions if they may be used for the purposes of liberating a neighbour - Tic Tacs was not the region before SP, it was fourth.


One of those regions has a single nation that is 22 days inactive. Another is password locked. Natives have ZERO incentive to hand over their region for that purpose and the ability to gain use of those regions within 12 hours is highly unlikely. Moving in without their permission is likely actionable puppet flooding.

This also assumes that the best region isn't secured by raiders beforehand, which has been pointed out is far easier for them to do with advance warning than as a reactive measure.

Tic Tacs was refounded for this purpose. Perhaps there were others, defenders have the same ability to save update orders as raiders do


This is just an arms race that has a finite end unless thousands of regions are pointlessly created to try and beat this system. Even when this is possible, moving three thousand nations ahead of any liberation might be fun to you but I'll hazard a guess that the vast majority of people find that irritating and unfulfilling. It's an option that defenders can, will and have used in the past if it is possible on a specific liberation, but its hardly a great way forward even then and simply won't be possible in many cases. See above also, distinct raider advantage here that they didn't already need.

Placing hidden nations that are known to update late amongst the vast sea of raider puppets in order to have nation triggers that are not under enemy control - worth a shot, right?


Yeah so you can ban that right at the opportune moment. Definitely not more reliable than picking multiple current nations within the region at random. If raiders have control of the region, they have control of the nations in it. Nice try, not falling for it.

Using a region that updates immediately before the bend region as a reliable trigger, for it is not plausible to change a bend region's update times dramatically within two minutes, even for me.


This is your first suggestion in different words, it is only a reliable trigger if its timing in relation to the target region is reasonably predictable - that's the whole point - therefore, this isn't a reliable trigger.

Unibot III wrote:You'd need a large invader update source to do some proper damage to the update accuracy unless they're doubling, tripling, or quadrupling up on puppets.


Eh, try 1000 each. Game has moved on.

Mallorea and Riva wrote:Whether making this technique more difficult is a good thing isn't something admin can be expected to determine yet.


That technical fix isn't my preferred solution, because it doesn't actually solve the problem.
The game was fine before, theres no negative from just making it illegal. Most of us knew about it before but didn't feel the need to create unfair advantages to get our wins unless it was an operational necessity.
Last edited by Iris and Metis on Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:32 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:27 am

Iris and Metis wrote:
Unibot III wrote:snip


Eh, try 1000 each. Game has moved on.


If they're moving a 1000 puppets each to bend update, that is almost surely puppet flooding. Military gameplayers have been permanently kicked out of the WA for a lot less. How can this not be a major case of puppet flooding if they're moving 1000s of puppets?
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Eluvatar
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Postby Eluvatar » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:31 am

Moving puppets into your own region is not considered puppet flooding.
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Miss Bad Life Choices
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Postby Miss Bad Life Choices » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:35 am

Unibot III wrote:I think the first question is: is this an administrative question? Or is this more appropriately a moderation question.

Puppet flooding is one of the most serious offences on the books.

Currently, if liberators want to throw off an invader delegate by flooding the target region with non-WA puppets alongside the WA forces, they are allowed to do so - but defenders were always advised by game moderators to keep the number of non-WA puppets down to one per person to avoid running afoul of the puppet flooding rule. So when defenders deployed this tactic, we would assign the task of "creating cover" to sympathetic WA Delegates (who wanted to help but didn't have a WA nation to use in the liberation).

So are invaders moving mass amounts of nations to throw update off? And are they representing the same one-to-one ratio we tried our best to respect in the past? It seems unfair to me to see puppet flooding enforced for defenders and unenforced for invaders.

If, say, twenty invader updaters are moving puppets around - how much would that impact update these days? 1.8 seconds? You'd need a large invader update source to do some proper damage to the update accuracy unless they're doubling, tripling, or quadrupling up on puppets.

I would strongly suggest that you don't seek out an administrative solution to this problem. Admins tinkering with the order would in all likelihood work against both sides in gameplay, since the changes that admins seek usually favour stochastic gameplay over a skills-based one.

If it's not puppet flooding, or the rules interpreting puppet flooding have otherwise changed, one way to combat this strategy (and you may have thought of this already) is to respond to their update bending with a significant counter-force where you plan in advance to plump the preceding region with a massive force of your own, chewing up more update time, to throw the invader delegate off (who is expecting update to happen earlier) and give you a short window of time to evaluate how many nations they added to update to account for them. That way no matter how much crap they chuck at the region, you've got a bit more time to figure out when your move is. Since you'll know the number of nations you're plumping in advance, you can factor that into your equation in advance of the liberation. Hope that helps.

Personally though this is all sounds like a massive breach of the puppet flooding rule though that should have been administrated.


Unibot III wrote:
If they're moving a 1000 puppets each to bend update, that is almost surely puppet flooding. Military gameplayers have been permanently kicked out of the WA for a lot less. How can this not be a major case of puppet flooding if they're moving 1000s of puppets?


"time to puppetsweep Sakana, Refuge, and Dakota clrly, that'll knock out a few thousand nations [udl noises]"

But in all seriousness, I don't know why this would be a moderation issue.

I'm Gaige001/founder the Free Society of Tic Tacs, and I founded it with the intent of puppet flooding it alongside Sakana and Refuge. It's my region, and I added the Puppet Storage tag to it. This puppet flooding is no different then defenders or raiders putting lots of nations into their respective jumppoints. If Tic Tacs was controlled by a native who didn't have a say or someone who didn't give their permission to region flood, then yeah, I'd see that breaking the puppet flooding rule, but this aint that.
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Postby Refuge Isle » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:44 am

Suppose that admin's response to this thread were another update order reshuffle.

Suppose also that a region, which is a worthy target to mount such a liberation as this one, was placed immediately after The North Pacific with its 9,000 nations all moving about and processing issues.

What are defenders to do in that situation? Whether in a case of the large region being artificially created or not, it seems like a different triggering method would need to be developed to handle that reality. Energy lamenting that current ones are not applicable is simply wasted.
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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:47 am

Eluvatar wrote:Moving puppets into your own region is not considered puppet flooding.


Thank you, Elu. This part of the problem wasn't clear in Roavin's OP.

So . . . my question is why wouldn't the moderators broaden the concept of "puppet flooding" to include regions that you've created to disrupt update or otherwise, just mass intentional disruption of update in general?

I mean, if defenders were to plump 1000s of nations into the target-region, it'd be puppet flooding.

But you're saying, invaders can create a region near the the target-region to accomplish the exact same thing effectively as defenders would wish to do but in reverse - and it isn't puppet flooding?

What we're talking about here is puppet flooding by stealth and one of the most egregious cases of it, I've ever heard of or contemplated.

I maintain that this issue should first be considered by Game Moderators before it becomes an administration issue. Is this really how they want to interpret and enforce the rules? It walks all over the puppet flooding rule. Defenders have carefully obeyed the rule for years - but invaders get to stake out a massive exception of it for themselves? Doesn't seem fair and it'll have a demonstrably poor impact on Military Gameplay. The only way I can think of, off the top of my head, to combat this puppet flooding is with more puppet flooding to expand the window and give yourself more time to re-calibrate. This kind of "literal" interpretation of what is and isn't puppet flooding will spiral out of control by encouraging puppet flooding tit-for-tat.

The exception for puppet flooding should be reserved for legitimate uses - honest players who are maintaining a puppet storage region. Not gameplayers manipulating update by moving thousands of nations back and forth at a certain timeframe. It makes a joke of the rules.
Last edited by Unibot III on Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:49 am, edited 3 times in total.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
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Custadia
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Postby Custadia » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:51 am

Ballotonia wrote:The KNOWN 'bender' regions.

Back in the day when I was a defender we didn't sit back and wait for someone to create a region which was late in the update to have a good jumping point. We created them. Brand new ones, with names never seen before.

Ballotonia

This is unworkable at short notice, since regions are sorted into the update order at their first update (iirc, anyway). It's also impractical even at long notice-a few people can be bothered to make thousands of regions to get one reasonably good JP, R/D shouldn't be about forcing players to found thousands to get a region that fits into exactly one slot in the order for every single operation.

From what I hear, variance is total dogshit at the minute. Roavin lists this as a contributing factor-perhaps the staff could work to reduce it somewhat.

He also says that a script was written to try and account for this resurgent tactic-presumably this relies on API calls since the whole point is the dumps are made unreliable. I haven't given it much thought but such a script-given a little more thought than "we need this next update"-should theoretically be capable of triggering despite the region's size changing and prospective triggers moving during update. If not, perhaps there are changes to be made regarding the information available to scripts that will make this viable.
Last edited by Custadia on Mon Aug 10, 2020 12:40 pm, edited 11 times in total.
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Postby Devi » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:54 am

Roavin wrote:First, the likelihood of finding an acceptable region is much lower. In the situation described in OP, the raiders owned two bender regions, one of which was exactly before the target region. Given just over 23k regions in the world and assuming an even, linear distribution of whatever hash is used to calculate position (a generous assumption), that requires ~17k regions to be founded after every big raid to have only a 50% chance of finding an appropriate bender region. That's 170 defenders using 100 puppets each for a 50-50 "maybe we'll find one".

Can we leave the disingenuous arguments out of Technical, please?
Leaving aside Refuge's point that the bending region was a good four regions out, rather than immediately before- which would bring the listed odds down *drastically*, even being merely four regions out is far from guaranteed for any given op unless raiders were to mass-found regions themselves in search of a suitable fit.
You're presenting literally the worst-case scenario here, which straight-up isn't applicable most of the time :p
any opinions stated are definitely 100% representative of TBH and every other region i'm a part of :)

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