by Ransium » Mon May 11, 2020 7:36 pm
by Noahs Second Country » Mon May 11, 2020 7:45 pm
1) The odds of pulling a card should not stack if multiple bids are placed.
Honestly, the anti-laundering system is not that effective at deterring me and others from making large transfers. I would prefer no system over the current system. It's not all that fun that farming is many orders of magnitude more profitable at some times over others, and it's kind of game killing that players with the most high value cards and largest farms can control when farming is most profitable so they can selective farm then.
Westinor wrote:Who knew the face of Big Farma could be the greatest hero of the Cards Proleteriat?
Honeydewistania wrote:Such spunk and arrogance that he welcomes the brigade of hatred!
by Noahs Second Country » Mon May 11, 2020 7:48 pm
Westinor wrote:Who knew the face of Big Farma could be the greatest hero of the Cards Proleteriat?
Honeydewistania wrote:Such spunk and arrogance that he welcomes the brigade of hatred!
by Noahs Second Country » Mon May 11, 2020 8:01 pm
Westinor wrote:Who knew the face of Big Farma could be the greatest hero of the Cards Proleteriat?
Honeydewistania wrote:Such spunk and arrogance that he welcomes the brigade of hatred!
by The Northern Light » Mon May 11, 2020 8:02 pm
Home of the WADP, Planet Eras, and the Constibillocode!
by Ballotonia » Tue May 12, 2020 12:38 am
Ransium wrote:The anti-laundering system, wherein a card, when placed on the market is much more likely than normal to be pulled, is meant to protect small time card farmers from larger farmers dominating the market.
by Ransium » Tue May 12, 2020 7:33 am
Ballotonia wrote:Ransium wrote:The anti-laundering system, wherein a card, when placed on the market is much more likely than normal to be pulled, is meant to protect small time card farmers from larger farmers dominating the market.
Correction: the system was put in place to make transferring value from puppets to main nations more difficult, the idea being that heisting would be more likely this way and thus making transferring value more costly.
Ballotonia wrote:I'm aware things are not working out as initially envisioned. That's business as usual for NationStates
Ballotonia
by 9003 » Tue May 12, 2020 7:55 am
by Racoda » Tue May 12, 2020 9:20 am
by Noahs Second Country » Tue May 12, 2020 10:37 am
Racoda wrote:I think the main problem here is not so much TCALS, but the monopoly that it grants.
Changing TCALS is one way to fix that. However, implementing a fix now without simultaneously correcting the massive inequality created by the spawning of duplicates will result in the monopoly that's been created being unchallengeable, and will only profit those who've already effortlessly gained the duplicates: let those who've had the time and resources to abuse the system keep their riches, which have been in many instances already traded away for more stable assets (ex. Testlandia cards).
There is no easy way to correct the abundance of duplicates, but possible solutions would be removing the duplicates (and any money/assets gained from selling them), resetting their MV, or make MV decay if no trades are made after some time (I suppose the last one is the hardest to implement).
As to TCALS working as intended: it is possible to increase bids on a transfer in order to pull multiple copies of a card, to heist the transfer. Most profitable on piggyback transfers.
Westinor wrote:Who knew the face of Big Farma could be the greatest hero of the Cards Proleteriat?
Honeydewistania wrote:Such spunk and arrogance that he welcomes the brigade of hatred!
by Ballotonia » Tue May 12, 2020 12:52 pm
Ransium wrote:Okay? And is the ultimate reason this was done not to make it a bit harder for the players with the largest farms to dominate the market?
9003 wrote:It is really disheartening to see this as a response [...] just saying meh it's a "feature" not a bug.
by Zeritae » Tue May 12, 2020 12:54 pm
Zurkerx wrote:Agarntrop wrote:snip
One already exists: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=484632&start=25
And seeing we're over the page limit, I #ilock now. We can't let the umm, super virus get out now.
by Land Without Shrimp » Wed May 13, 2020 8:47 am
by Vedan » Wed May 13, 2020 9:46 am
by Noahs Second Country » Wed May 13, 2020 1:00 pm
Vedan wrote:Who's idea was it in the first place that cards spawn more when theres bids on them? That seems like a flawed design from the start, the game should be trying to make cards more scarce and valuable instead of making more whenever people start too take a intrest in a card. What if instead we made it to where a card cannot spawn for a rarity scaling period of time after someone pulls one? For example if you pull a (uncommon) Vedan card then no other Vedans may spawn for 1 IRL week, while if you pull a (rare) Mzeusia card then it'll be a month before another can be pulled and a (Ultra rare) Leonism will take two months, and so on and so on as the rarity increases. This should stop the current exploit and ensure that high rarity cards keep there value for a longer period of time.
Westinor wrote:Who knew the face of Big Farma could be the greatest hero of the Cards Proleteriat?
Honeydewistania wrote:Such spunk and arrogance that he welcomes the brigade of hatred!
by Vedan » Wed May 13, 2020 2:16 pm
Noahs Second Country wrote:Vedan wrote:Who's idea was it in the first place that cards spawn more when theres bids on them? That seems like a flawed design from the start, the game should be trying to make cards more scarce and valuable instead of making more whenever people start too take a intrest in a card. What if instead we made it to where a card cannot spawn for a rarity scaling period of time after someone pulls one? For example if you pull a (uncommon) Vedan card then no other Vedans may spawn for 1 IRL week, while if you pull a (rare) Mzeusia card then it'll be a month before another can be pulled and a (Ultra rare) Leonism will take two months, and so on and so on as the rarity increases. This should stop the current exploit and ensure that high rarity cards keep there value for a longer period of time.
The issue then becomes people utilizing these cards (even the lower interval ones) to make transfers at no risk. While the current system is flawed, it is probably better than this system, where you'll see commons with transfers of 5000 on them dominating the card MV leaderboards.
For example: if I find a common that can't be found for another day, I can immediately transfer 5000 bank on it, inflating my deck value. Even if other people find it, nobody will actually want to sell the card for a reasonable price, and a card with no actual value is now producing the same runoff MV effect produced by large farmers generating high MV cards with ease.
by Unibot III » Wed May 13, 2020 4:15 pm
Ransium wrote:I'm having trouble understanding what you are saying admins stance is from this remark. If it is that nothing needs to be done, then I think I am done playing cards. I don't need a game to interact with a system that claims to reward hard work and maybe give the little guy a bit of boost, but actually can be easily rigged to make the wealthier way more wealthy because they are wealthy.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
by Ransium » Wed May 13, 2020 5:04 pm
Unibot III wrote:Ransium wrote:I'm having trouble understanding what you are saying admins stance is from this remark. If it is that nothing needs to be done, then I think I am done playing cards. I don't need a game to interact with a system that claims to reward hard work and maybe give the little guy a bit of boost, but actually can be easily rigged to make the wealthier way more wealthy because they are wealthy.
This is classic NS stuff though. The site has always been creatively exploited by players.
by Noahs Second Country » Wed May 13, 2020 5:29 pm
Vedan wrote:What if we introduced a market cap then? Make it to where no card can be assured sold for higher than say, four times its junk value.
Westinor wrote:Who knew the face of Big Farma could be the greatest hero of the Cards Proleteriat?
Honeydewistania wrote:Such spunk and arrogance that he welcomes the brigade of hatred!
by Recuecn » Sat May 16, 2020 11:19 am
by Noahs Second Country » Sat May 16, 2020 11:46 am
Recuecn wrote:As someone who has not benefited from "the exploit" (TCALS) as much as others have (more on that in a sec) I think it's a great mechanic that the community has found creative uses for and I'd be happy for it, or something resembling it, to stay. As far as I can tell, there's two main reasons people don't like it. The first is that a few people can use it to get very rich very quickly, but the trading card game already has lots of wealth disparity and some people complain but in general we seem fine with it. Anyone who knows how it works can use TCALS just like anyone who can figure out how a transfer works can farm using puppets. This is another case where people have equal opportunity but unequal results. Trying to 'fix' that seems like trying to 'fix' the fact that some people are richer because they've spent more time farming. If people are jealous that others are too rich, then it's the mindset that's the issue.
On the other hand, the fact that this is being brought up by those who have already benefited from TCALS makes me wonder if the real, unspoken concern is that this is "ruining" the value of some of these cards that used to be worth thousands of bank. Higher up someone was complaining about how the market value of the Pergamon card crashed. So really, if this mechanic were removed, it would help the big farmers by assuring that their high-value cards won't drop in value. Prices dropping helps the little guy and also makes the game a lot more interesting since it's a change from the usual status quo which is just endless inflation. Having a market that goes both ways is a lot more exciting, and if it's a result of people creating too many copies of valuable cards, then they're suffering from their own success.
The argument that the price will adjust accordingly is not very convincing, as it generally does not happen in practice. For example, we recently held a pull event for the Soops season 1 card. The card remains the most valuable in the game, despite the fact that 40 copies of it were spawned. The reason why price adjustment does not work goes back to what I said above: the new copies are generally owned by a small group of players, corresponding to systematic farmers. These players can choose to just keep the cards in their deck for their market value, and never trade them. With no trades, the value never changes. And as the copies are concentrated on so few players, nobody can do anything about it.
Going back to how I have benefited from TCALS: I did pull an Old Tyrannia card during one of TNL's publicized pull events, which I was able to trade for a Pergamon card (at that time worth about a thousand bank) to finish my collection of cards with gif flags. But that wasn't the only time TCALS helped me with the collection. With the help of Big Shot, another gif collector, we were able to produce more copies of Akavet, a card of which only one copy existed (before that it had been a cte'd 0-owner). That was probably my favorite moment in the trading card game: just me and a friend, independent farmers, producing more copies of a card not for its market value but just because it was a cool card we wanted. The TNL pull events have also always been very fun as well: in a minigame that is mostly mindless farming by yourself for literal hours, the pull events provide an opportunity for the community to come together, be online at the same time, get excited over something, and gossip about who's pulled what. Past changes to card mechanics have pleasantly surprised me, even after I argued against them, and I think the admins have done a great job creating and maintaining a game based on the philosophy that a few simple mechanics can go a long way with a great community, so I trust that whatever response they give will work out. But I'd hate to see TCALS go away entirely.
Westinor wrote:Who knew the face of Big Farma could be the greatest hero of the Cards Proleteriat?
Honeydewistania wrote:Such spunk and arrogance that he welcomes the brigade of hatred!
by Racoda » Sun May 17, 2020 2:13 am
Noahs Second Country wrote:There is noeasyway to correct the damage that has already been done.
Removing the duplicates is harmful to the people who didn't benefit from the system since a lot of bank and cards have already changed hands... reverting every single one of these trades and tracking down all of the bank spent is complex, error prone, and very difficult. Resetting MV would be easier and less harmful, but it would still hurt those that didn't benefit from TCALS. (For example, I traded a MC for various other cards with Elegarth; how is it fair to them that the card now has a MV of 1?).
The market will partially correct itself in some cases, and I think that's the only real fix for what has already happened. The question becomes whether this will continue to happen in the future.
by Aclion » Sun May 17, 2020 6:51 am
Recuecn wrote:TL;DR: If you're complaining that other people are getting too rich, quit whining. If you're worried that your expensive cards' values are dropping... quit whining.
by Holland DS6 » Mon May 18, 2020 10:53 am
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