Lord Dominator wrote:I'm unclear what benefit we derive from doing this to random regions.
The same benefit as any invader has in invading/occupying/teasing random regions. The fun of it. We've seen invaders undermine the credibility of WA Liberations before by doing these kinds of false flag missions.
But I think invaders would get the biggest kick from using embargoes against defenders. (A) Tricking defenders into embargoing regions then taking advantage of the embargo.
The default you mean, if defenders can't do the above.Again, likely the default and trivially easy to boot.(B) Taking regions back from liberators before an embargo can be repealed successfully.False flag natives are also very good at making the disingenuous case for premature repeals of embargoes / liberations.
Perhaps, but to what actual benefit would a premature repeal be? It'd pass at the beginning of update, at which point it'd return to being a re-run of a regular liberation attempt.
I'm unclear what you mean when you say "the default."
The advantage of getting a repeal passed prematurely is if you take back control of a region before a WA Resolution is passed, the embargo is lifted and you've got the incumbency. Invaders would have 0-1 hour to pile like snot to ensure full control again. If you're still in position to retake the region but you're not the incumbent, you might still try this maneuver regardless if the native lead is unreliable (which happens). An "Insta" Re-Embargo effort would hurt the credibility of the Embargo and the defenders in the WA Security Council.
The point is that these crises would be more dynamic than a conventional occupation.
You absolutely can form submit a Liberation or Embargo, nothing in the rules prohibits such (arguments must be relevant to the region, uniqueness is a factor in having multiple with the same target. Further, several of Kuriko's liberations are nearly form submitted, and strict for submission isn't possible there's plenty of opportunity to make a wide array of legal variances. Damage to the region is minimal (most founderless don't recruit much) and certainly less than the damage of the occasional extreme pile). The relevant target intel is somewhat easy to get, and certainly worth it for the possibility of being able to liberate a region with 0 updaters.
I think the reason why I'm having such a hard time grappling with why you or other invaders think defenders would actually do this is because it's deeply ingrained in defenders not to do this stuff. Defenders prefer the non-invasive approach where ever possible and try to respect regional sovereignty - submitting mass blanket embargoes for regions not only is begging for a rules violation, but you're making major decisions over a region's border control without their consultation or a proven active threat.
This is why stealth invasions are allowed to persist often for a long time even when they're obvious to spotters - defenders don't like to act unless they're certain that the events they're seeing translate into probable cause for an invasion. They usually don't, for instance, move into a region preemptively to take the delegacy of a region to banject suspicious sleeper nations. They could do that. Might even be smart to do that. But that's a cultural difference between defenders and invaders.
I would insist that on the contrary: if you know an invasion is going to take place, submitting preemptive embargoes is unnecessary and more work and could undermine your whole position. It's better to handle the invasion at update. You might warn the native delegate in advance and encourage them to take the matter in their own hand, but you're not going to tip off invaders and you're not going to complicate the defense and liberation of a region needlessly. If a defender doesn't have to use an embargo, a defender will not use it.
For instance, what happens if you pass an embargo preemptively and you can't get it repealed? Defenders worry about these things. A repeal isn't an open and shut case. You have to make your case to a public against arguments that aren't always sincere. I would be very worried about applying an embargo unless I knew there was no other option.