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Beta 021: Food Quality

Bug reports, general help, ideas for improvements, and questions about how things are meant to work.

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Polis Diamonil
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Postby Polis Diamonil » Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:35 pm

It shouldn't be totally divorced from food safety. As much as excessive food safety could gash the creativity and even flavor factors (I mean, egad, some people pick the 'boil everything' response that bans sushi), nobody rates food-borne illnesses as part of the finest fine dining experiences. Slightly impairing flavor should still net a positive if it substantially improves food safety. Restaurants where the reviews talk about high rates of food-borne illness can survive only in the cuisine of greatest scarcity.

<This post will now go off the rails and frolic in the wilderness.>

I can imagine even with biased researchers, Food Quality still wouldn't even be totally divorced from the nutritional content of the food. Very unhealthy foods can be very delicious sometimes, but between two equal meals the one that makes people feel better would be preferred to one that makes them feel worse. That can be within the scope of perceptibility. The people who've travelled the world tasting ingredients will surely have preferences about how food makes them feel, too. Although this would probably be a small factor, peoples' biases being as they are... It's easier to sell people tasty food that causes bloating sensations than blech food that processes cleanly.

Speaking of biased researchers, the simple perception that a nation cares about Food Quality should tend to buoy its Food Quality. Providing food will be more prestigious in a nation believed to care about Food Quality, while hard work will be more frequently attempted and more reliably rewarded. People who believe they're having good food enjoy it more than people who believe their food could be better. This sounds at first like a Winmore factor (with high scores going higher) and indeed it is, but states formed transiently of peoples' expectations could also be good chaos factors if they tend to fluctuate reactively when people are confronted with information that makes them doubtful. It's also notable that quality expectations are a potentially less internationalist score influence than ingredient diversity, since even if the food was objectively improved as a result of greater awareness (it likely would be), a nation whose food quality was notably poor would suffer increased awareness of their nations' food quality issues as a result of international influences on the food supply. That could be dismal to gourmands and workers in the food industries. An isolationist nation with poor food might therefore sometimes gain in food quality due to improvements in the perception of the nation's food quality, even though strictly speaking they would only be providing food with less exposure to ideas and ingredients sourced from outside of their nation.

Ah, and thinking about people working harder... See, I don't make simulations IRL, because I'm always forever thinking of more causal implications.

Summing up some of the factors I've thought of... Is the game's underlying code complex enough to represent Food Quality Influences Due To:
  1. nutrition
  2. nutrition science
  3. access to ingredients
  4. access to international ingredients
  5. experimentation with international recipes
  6. food odor (good or bad)
  7. food flavor
  8. cultural food perfectionism
  9. expected value of food and eating
  10. rate of food-borne illness
  11. work ethic of food service
  12. morale of food service
  13. jealousy of other nations
  14. effective advertising of good restaurants
  15. effective advertising of trashy fast food
  16. the basic trustworthiness of the nation's food and water supplies
and then composite these various food quality influences before presenting the shift in the aggregate number to the player? Obviously, Food Flavor is a special number; it's incredibly central to subjective perceptions of food quality, and other factors should certainly be smaller in the central measurement. It's almost like Food Flavor is the basic source of inaccuracy in the measure, as regards trying to decipher any of the other variables... A detached governing perspective might care more about nutrition, food-borne illness, and public sanitation factors more than food flavor, even as it is stuck only getting feedback biased by flavor data.

If all of that (and more?) could be represented somehow, perhaps that could ensure the graphs move somewhat unpredictably as various factors approach their highest or lowest values. For instance:
  1. although 'boil everything' (#705-3) should almost always be a terrible thing for food quality due to its horrible implications for food flavor and negative effects on food nutrition (ubiquitous heavy boiling is not nutrition-preserving), but if the rate of food borne illnesses was elevated while the flavor/internationalism factors were already bottomed out, that decision might still conceivably expose an apparent increase in food quality to the player and the simulation. The basic trustworthiness of the nation's food and water supplies might also increase as people get upset about sanitation issues, though obviously this would only be available if a stat which should probably start near its maximum has been previously damaged.
  2. For an issue choice with a more distinctive variability, check out #380-3. "Cheap and tasteless vegetables flood the markets." That's bad for Food Quality, right? Well... probably. If the headline implication is that Flavor gets worse, that's a hit to the incredibly central input which could wash out all the other implications. It's probably also dubious for nutrition and the rate of food-borne illness as high-volume suppliers use environmentally dubious high-density agriculture to outcompete smaller producers. Yet opening up food markets to increased foreign competition is also an international food influence, and in this context it's an international food influence that should even reduce jealousy of other nations. Therefore, what that decision should definitely do is increase the availability of ingredients (both measures) and the experimentation with international recipes. If Flavor is already dubious, access to ingredients is impaired, and internationalism is low, opening up the markets to foreign competition should increase Food Quality.
  3. For an example of something I imagine would increase Flavor while undermining many other variables, check out #837-3. It's one of the most solidly corrupt actions in the simulation. What is the corruption - the undue subjective bias - in Food Quality? Flavor. Probably also international experimentation with recipes as the budget for hiring better chefs gains undue improvement, but corrupted judgment around Food Quality should definitely focus mostly on Flavor. I would expect this issue decision could only increase apparent Food Quality, yet apparent is the key word here. I would expect it to be a weak increase weighed down by bad implications under the hood. That's firstly because only a relative small pool of people is becoming more subjectively biased (high officials) while the larger status of the nation is going to become neglected, and secondly because if the government is neglecting its responsibilities in favor of serving the subjective priorities of corrupted officials! Many factors other than Flavor should show a corresponding measure of neglect. The food might even smell worse in a corrupt nation as citizens reluctant to be treated as servants neglect a factor for which they're unlikely to be punished.

Actually, it's almost like Flavor might be a good aggregate of all the subjective factors... and then instead of having one incredibly central input, the second-to-last step of collating the factors could be to generate hidden 'objective food quality' (The Nutrition) and 'subjective food quality' (The Flavor) scores, with the reported Food Quality being a mixture of the two. Every factor improving the way the food helps people maintain their minds and bodies can be counted as improving The Nutrition, while the factors making it more pleasant to eat can be counted as contributing to The Flavor. (There should be some overlap between the two; food-borne illness is a pretty unpleasant flavor, too.) If the mixture of the two factors were variable, it might be desirable if nations could tilt their reported Food Quality towards a greater dependency on the 'objective' side... but when I imagine the utter dreariness of a nation where one is assured that one's dismal meals are certain to be 'objectively' superior, I think that perhaps there is some danger in perfect integrity. It may be appropriate to have food culture tend to tilt reporting towards The Flavor even in honest nations, which process could be responsible for causing rises in Perceived Food Quality due to The Flavor being given more room to express its great and powerful centrality to experience.

<This post will now return to reality.>

If all of this thinking sounds apocalyptically complicated, well... there's a reason I don't make simulations, but there's also a reason why I'm so absorbed in thinking about potential societal causality structures. I expect that Earth IRL is probably whoa complicated.
Last edited by Polis Diamonil on Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Novo Wagondia
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Postby Novo Wagondia » Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:06 am

What’s the status of this and the handful of other betas hinted at last year? It seemed certain they would be confirmed at the time, but since then there’s been few signs of life. Just wanted to check in and see if they’ve been cancelled or otherwise delayed, as I thought this and other betas were actually quite clever and well-received. Either way, much respect to the technical team for expanding the always-enjoyable census mechanics. :)
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Fauxia
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Postby Fauxia » Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:02 am

[violet] wrote:Never underestimate the ability of admin to do nothing.


Technically I think this is largely the issue editing team but whatever. Site staff take their time. It’ll be implemented within the decade.
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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:36 am

Fauxia wrote:Technically I think this is largely the issue editing team but whatever.
No, adding entirely new census scores is the purview of admins. Issue editors just decide how each issue affects the existing scores.

Adding a new score can also require greater or lesser amounts of attention from the issue editors, depending on whether it's merely a new calculation based on values already in the game or if the game needs to start tracking entirely new values, but it always requires at least some admin attention.

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Jar Wattinree
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Postby Jar Wattinree » Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:08 am

Well I'm looking forward to flexing my Patriotism stat.
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Brickston
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BETA Testing?

Postby Brickston » Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:57 pm

I think they're testing food quality right now - because I seem to have it on my world census list

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Picairn
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Postby Picairn » Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:44 pm

Brickston wrote:I think they're testing food quality right now - because I seem to have it on my world census list

It appears that Food Quality and Patriotism have been added.
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[violet]
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Postby [violet] » Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:55 pm

Yep, server is generating scores and rankings right now. Should be up to date within the next 30 minutes.

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SherpDaWerp
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Postby SherpDaWerp » Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:58 pm

[violet] wrote:Yep, server is generating scores and rankings right now. Should be up to date within the next 30 minutes.

For lack of a better place to mention it - the news post has the Patriotism and Food Quality links the wrong way around; Patriotism (top link) goes to census 88, while Food Quality (lower link) goes to census 87.
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Flanderlion
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Postby Flanderlion » Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:23 am

SherpDaWerp wrote:
[violet] wrote:Yep, server is generating scores and rankings right now. Should be up to date within the next 30 minutes.

For lack of a better place to mention it - the news post has the Patriotism and Food Quality links the wrong way around; Patriotism (top link) goes to census 88, while Food Quality (lower link) goes to census 87.

That confuses me so much. I was going 'I'll be super high' then I saw I was like 230k out of 230k and was like, surely my population doesn't hate me that much. Then I figured I was in the top 100 and all was right with the world.

Thanks for adding the betas in, more stats = <3
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Valentine Z
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Postby Valentine Z » Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:27 am

Quite a wonderful news to wake up from, with two more stats added! It's a cry shame on what happened to Tourism, but eh, I retained my rank.

Now I just need to wait for the other two stats and I should be gathering more stats for my next analysis. ♥️
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[violet]
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Postby [violet] » Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:40 am

SherpDaWerp wrote:For lack of a better place to mention it - the news post has the Patriotism and Food Quality links the wrong way around; Patriotism (top link) goes to census 88, while Food Quality (lower link) goes to census 87.

Ah, thanks--now fixed.

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Picairn
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Postby Picairn » Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:16 am

Valentine Z wrote:Quite a wonderful news to wake up from, with two more stats added! It's a cry shame on what happened to Tourism, but eh, I retained my rank.

Holy crap my Tourism points dropped by 400! But I'm still in Top 2% so I'm happy.
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Bear Connors Paradiso
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Postby Bear Connors Paradiso » Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:21 am

My data is still compiling!

My food quality also went from 222 to 0 on the beta link. :o

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Valentine Z
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Postby Valentine Z » Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:00 am

Bear Connors Paradiso wrote:My data is still compiling!

My food quality also went from 222 to 0 on the beta link. :o

Hmm, same for me. Both stats have a change from X to 0 (-100%), but I will probably hazard a guess that the data was still compiling. I can still see the individual stats, just not the ranks because it is still compiling.
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Cereskia
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Postby Cereskia » Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:05 am

I don't really think a international level food quality census exists in real life,mbut quite neat here.
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Laka Strolistandiler
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Postby Laka Strolistandiler » Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:06 am

Why do I have a 4% top level of food... I’m a communist state wtf
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Valentine Z
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Postby Valentine Z » Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:36 am

If I have the data right now, I would totally do it, but I don't, so... I suppose a wait for a week or two is needed.

From what I understand, it does not seem like it correlates with the more obvious-sounding and looking stats like Economic Freedom. Being communist doesn't mean awful food. Could be that you have good food thanks to science, but I am just going over my head now and will wait to gather the data.
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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:23 am

Given I am number 36 from the bottom, I’m presuming that it has the most to do with other quality of living scores (like health or charmlessness) rather than they type of government.

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Bear Connors Paradiso
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Postby Bear Connors Paradiso » Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:58 pm

Valentine Z wrote:
Bear Connors Paradiso wrote:My data is still compiling!

My food quality also went from 222 to 0 on the beta link. :o

Hmm, same for me. Both stats have a change from X to 0 (-100%), but I will probably hazard a guess that the data was still compiling. I can still see the individual stats, just not the ranks because it is still compiling.

12 hours later my data is STILL compiling and it's displaying the same result. Did NS lose one of its servers or something?

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Sedgistan
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Postby Sedgistan » Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:07 pm

Perhaps your national cuisine is that hard to digest?

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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:37 pm

It appears just fine on your actual stat tab, perhaps it’s just something up with the beta display?

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Laka Strolistandiler
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Postby Laka Strolistandiler » Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:40 pm

Bear Connors Paradiso wrote:
Valentine Z wrote:Hmm, same for me. Both stats have a change from X to 0 (-100%), but I will probably hazard a guess that the data was still compiling. I can still see the individual stats, just not the ranks because it is still compiling.

12 hours later my data is STILL compiling and it's displaying the same result. Did NS lose one of its servers or something?

I mean I experienced a couple server failures today say so...
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Bear Connors Paradiso
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Postby Bear Connors Paradiso » Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:52 pm

Sedgistan wrote:Perhaps your national cuisine is that hard to digest?

I'm pretty sure I allowed bugs on the menu.....I didn't think it would cause bugs in the game though!

None of my stats are displaying.

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[violet]
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Postby [violet] » Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:16 pm

Bear Connors Paradiso wrote:My data is still compiling!

Oh whoops, I forgot to disable the temporary block. Ranks should display fine now.

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