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Beta 019: Patriotism

Bug reports, general help, ideas for improvements, and questions about how things are meant to work.
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Leutria
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Beta 019: Patriotism

Postby Leutria » Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:47 pm

Beta 019: Patriotism

Proposed Change: Flags saluted per person per day.
Last edited by Leutria on Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Flanderlion
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Postby Flanderlion » Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:15 pm

So evidently this one is primarily reliant on a backend stat that doesn't exist yet, so what we see in the beta isn't what we'll see when implemented.
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Leutria
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Postby Leutria » Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:19 pm

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:Well, while we're waiting...

Patriotism is a funny one, as it will eventually largely depend on a new backstage stat that isn't yet coded into the game. The beta only reveals the smaller effect that will be calculated from existing numbers, and provides only a baseline. Once it goes live, issues will be rejigged with a view to assessing how patriotic various options are, and coding changes directly onto those. With admin's permission, I might start the work ahead of it going live.

Of all the new stats, it's the one where the beta least resembles what it will finally look like in play.


Indeed, so really that makes this Beta a bit odd. Although, I guess this does show what our base lines will be, as the backstage stat I assume will start at 0 and we will have to answer issues to start to see a real number.
Last edited by Leutria on Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Outer Sparta
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Postby Outer Sparta » Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:43 pm

This one is quite interesting and I would love to see how it plays out in the end.
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Candlewhisper Archive
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Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:09 am

Right, this one is of my design, and currently calculates its score off existing stats and policies. However, once it goes live there will be an additional backstage stat that pretty much affects Patriotism only, and that will be coded onto all the issue options that are patriotic or unpatriotic accordingly.

Note that the design intention is not to say patriotism is a positive or negative quality - it just represents pride in your nation over others.
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Minoa
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Postby Minoa » Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:48 am

I have been thinking of an example of strong patriotism that the index could be named after, and I remember that in Turkey, there is very strong level of patriotism about their first president, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk.
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Bears Armed
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Postby Bears Armed » Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:52 am

Minoa wrote:I have been thinking of an example of strong patriotism that the index could be named after, and I remember that in Turkey, there is very strong level of patriotism about their first president, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk.

"flags waved" might be suitable as a less RL-tied scale.
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Lillorainen
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Postby Lillorainen » Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:14 pm

Bears Armed wrote:
Minoa wrote:I have been thinking of an example of strong patriotism that the index could be named after, and I remember that in Turkey, there is very strong level of patriotism about their first president, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk.

"flags waved" might be suitable as a less RL-tied scale.

Agreed. While there are indices named after RL personages ("Bush-Santorum Dawning Terror Index" for Social Conservatism comes into mind), I wouldn't exactly go with Mustafa Kemal Atatürk as an example fitting a Patriotism index - even if rather mostly for the reason, that Kemalism has quite been challenged under the Erdoğan administration (whom I personally don't exactly see in Atatürk's tradition, but that's not a topic for this thread). For the lack of a better example, I'd go with "Flags waved", for it isn't only less controversial (thus, neutral), but also simple and clear.
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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:35 pm

What about 'Salute Readiness Index' :p
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Candlewhisper Archive
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Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:06 am

The numbers seem to be working out alright for a more specific unit like the one currently used, so I'm happy with salutes/person/day. It gets a little mad at the high extremes, but no more than Bananas Per Day or Quips per Hour does for other stats. I quite like the idea of a nation being so madly patriotic that folk salute the flag 80 times a day.
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Vivolkha
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Postby Vivolkha » Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:46 am

This beta is certainly interesting, and probably a nice addition to NS. It does seem enormous work to implement, but Patriotism would certainly benefit from being a primary stat.
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Rainbowsix
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Postby Rainbowsix » Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:49 am

i need this :)
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Krusavich
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Postby Krusavich » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:21 am

Definitely my favorite beta addition for this batch. It's something we see implied a lot in issues, so it'll be nice to have an actual tangible stat to back it up with.

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Kombinita Socialisma Demokratio
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Postby Kombinita Socialisma Demokratio » Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:20 pm

I like the idea of this very much, but my value does not seem to be correct. I cannot find any nation with a similar score which is not nearly my opposite in most stats.

Some somewhat similar nations (based on policies and a few stats which are high for both) are not close to my score of 31.81
Geneviev (which is quite similar) has a score of 0.77
Pasong Tirad has a score of 0.94
Liliumtopia has a score of 0.85
Greater Cuba (which is not quite as similar) has a score of 0.21


What causes this? It is like the cancelled hunger stat for me, which was very high for my 77 % tax nation with high HDI, high average lifespan, high poor income, high income equality, high food quality, and an average disposable income. The only possibility that I can think of is constantly teetering on the edge of public protest fully legal. Speculation?
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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:05 am

Not really related to your query, but there is an argument to be made that patriotism would be high in both totalitarian states and states high in happiness stats or similar. That is, if patriotism measures surface-level liking of the state, there isn't much of a difference from it being from fear vs love.
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Outer Sparta
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Postby Outer Sparta » Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:09 am

Lord Dominator wrote:Not really related to your query, but there is an argument to be made that patriotism would be high in both totalitarian states and states high in happiness stats or similar. That is, if patriotism measures surface-level liking of the state, there isn't much of a difference from it being from fear vs love.

Maybe nations with low political apathy have higher levels of patriotism, considering an apathetic citizenry may not care about what's going on in the actual world.
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Vivolkha
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Postby Vivolkha » Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:14 am

Lord Dominator wrote:Not really related to your query, but there is an argument to be made that patriotism would be high in both totalitarian states and states high in happiness stats or similar. That is, if patriotism measures surface-level liking of the state, there isn't much of a difference from it being from fear vs love.

It seems to be largely unrelated to Cheerfulness, as my main nation and two of my puppets have all top 10% or better Cheerfulness and very different Patriotism scores (0.68, roughly 18 and roughly 36). Also, it is stated that when implemented this could be a primary stat.
My views are constantly changing; check the spoiler below for the most updated ones. Currently, this is an exclusively OOC nation.
Pro: Parlamentarism, atheism, EU, EU and UN reform, open borders, capitalism (generally), strong state, welfare state, authoritarian drug policies, abortion, nuclear power, space exploration, science
Anti: Religion, totalitarianism (includes Communism/Fascism by definition), Maduro & Morales, Trump, alt-right, right to discriminate, SJW, drug decriminalization, conspiracy theories, unregulated capitalism, monarchism, anti-intellectualism

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Candlewhisper Archive
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Capitalizt

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:44 am

There are no visible primary stats.

What I said was that once implemented, a new primary stat will be created that will heavily affect this stat, and it will be this issue stat that is used on options that are patriotic or unpatriotic. That doesn't mean that what you see will be the primary stat.
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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:26 am

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:There are no visible primary stats.

Not even residency?
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Sanctaria
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Postby Sanctaria » Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:09 pm

Aclion wrote:
Candlewhisper Archive wrote:There are no visible primary stats.

Not even residency?

I could be missing something, but what does the amount of time you've been in your region got to do with how patriotic your citizens are?
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Merconitonitopia
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Postby Merconitonitopia » Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:31 pm

Vivolkha wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:Not really related to your query, but there is an argument to be made that patriotism would be high in both totalitarian states and states high in happiness stats or similar. That is, if patriotism measures surface-level liking of the state, there isn't much of a difference from it being from fear vs love.

It seems to be largely unrelated to Cheerfulness, as my main nation and two of my puppets have all top 10% or better Cheerfulness and very different Patriotism scores (0.68, roughly 18 and roughly 36). Also, it is stated that when implemented this could be a primary stat.

Cheerfulness isn't happiness (though it used to be called that). It isn't determined by indicators of quality of life. I interpret it as to do with your people's personalities, i.e. how naturally extroverted, friendly, easy-going, etc. people are regardless of their situation.

Now whether a more or less cheerful people would be more patriotic is an open question. My guess is it wouldn't make much difference either way (although perhaps the more cheerful people would more readily express their patriotic feelings).
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Vivolkha
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Postby Vivolkha » Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:58 pm

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:There are no visible primary stats.

What I said was that once implemented, a new primary stat will be created that will heavily affect this stat, and it will be this issue stat that is used on options that are patriotic or unpatriotic. That doesn't mean that what you see will be the primary stat.

My mistake. It seems that even after >1 year of issue playing on many nations I still don't know how it all exactly works.
My views are constantly changing; check the spoiler below for the most updated ones. Currently, this is an exclusively OOC nation.
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Myledia
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Postby Myledia » Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:44 pm

Recently, I was thinking about that kind of beta. Look, as you can see, here, there are already kind of "patriotic" scales, including defence forces and arms manufacturing. My proposition is to not create "patriotic" scale, but "globastic" scale, including two of propositions here. The way of thinking (scale patriotic-cosmopolitian) and the level of easyiness of travelling to another countries.
And as a bonus, it can show economic related issues, a type of economy, either protectionist or globalistic, that is also open for trading with another countries. That index will be boosted by open borders, and all policies related to diplomacy.
It will show nation's openess for another countries and the level of globalisation.
What do you think?? :hug:

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Postby Sapporo Hyperspace Riftgate Laboratory » Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:50 pm

Also, why is my mmHg differential very high
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Merconitonitopia
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Postby Merconitonitopia » Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:53 pm

Myledia, patriotism and globalism aren't a dichotomy. The opposite of cosmopolitanism (trust of out-groups) is xenophobia or negative ethnocentrism (mistrust of out-groups). Patriotism may or may not feature xenophobia.
Last edited by Merconitonitopia on Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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