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Beta 014: Generosity

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Leutria
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Beta 014: Generosity

Postby Leutria » Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:42 pm

Beta 014: Generosity
Proposed Change: Dedicated World Census takers posed as amputee refugee city beggars to measure national generosity.
Last edited by Leutria on Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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VoVoDoCo
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Postby VoVoDoCo » Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:45 pm

Leutria wrote:GenerosityBeta 014: Generosity
Proposed Change: Dedicated World Census takers posed as amputee refugee city beggars to measure national generosity.

How will this be fundamentally different from compassion?
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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:53 pm

Yeah, I have to wonder if having Compassion, Niceness, and Generosity isn't overkill.

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Leutria
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Postby Leutria » Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:56 pm

I would also love to hear the reasoning for this. I wouldn’t mind another stat that Leutria naturally does well in, but I am not sure what new thing this captures?

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Postby Valentine Z » Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:59 pm

Maybe it's one of those things when people are nice with everything else with money?

Like, you can be a nice and caring person, but you are just extremely stingy.

Hmm... if that pops up, I can do more analysis.
Last edited by Valentine Z on Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Postby Lord Dominator » Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:23 pm

I can think of how they could be different, but if they're generally linked I'm not sure if it matters.
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Merconitonitopia
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Postby Merconitonitopia » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:28 pm

Trotterdam wrote:Yeah, I have to wonder if having Compassion, Niceness, and Generosity isn't overkill.

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Postby Outer Sparta » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:58 pm

Hmm, I wouldn't mind having generosity in, but one would have to wonder how much that is linked with niceness and compassion.
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Postby Lillorainen » Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:07 am

Outer Sparta wrote:Hmm, I wouldn't mind having generosity in, but one would have to wonder how much that is linked with niceness and compassion.

It will probably be linked to it, but I could also imagine, that welfare and average income of poor will be a thing as well. In nations that tend to have very few people living below the poverty line (like mine, with the bottom 10% still earning 136,000 SMU a year in the moment I'm typing this, combined with a welfare system in the global Top 6%), city beggars won't be much of a thing, thus, there isn't really a need for generosity. Niceness and compassion will still be stats taken into consideration, but the generosity rank won't necessarily depend only on these two.
(Just my own assumption, though.)
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Postby Bears Armed » Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:39 am

So far, the 'Compassion' stat seems to be based mainly on "generosity" with other people's money rather than with your own...
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Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:15 am

Generosity and compassion will overlap a lot in their inputs, so expect to see a strong correlation, but this is primarily about willingness to share wealth with those who are poorer, so there are some differences in the calculation.
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Angshire
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Postby Angshire » Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:44 pm

Out of all the proposed betas, I definitely support this one the most. :)
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Merconitonitopia
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Postby Merconitonitopia » Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:38 pm

I notice that, while my nation is 13th in international aid, my people are very ungenerous (0.13). I don't imagine they're too happy about the government frittering away the fruits of their labours on f*reign countries.

It should also be said that the current system of measuring the index would realistically present a problem with nations having different incomes, meaning some of the variation would be a result of variation in incomes.

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Postby Trotterdam » Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:24 pm

Merconitonitopia wrote:It should also be said that the current system of measuring the index would realistically present a problem with nations having different incomes,
Good point.

Many people would consider it to be more generous to give someone $100 if you're poor than to give someone $100 if you're rich. It may make more sense to measure Generosity by percentage of wealth donated, rather than absolute value.

Another interesting part of the current beta unit is "per cup", which means that in a nation with lots of beggars, you need to spend more money to count as being Generous than in a nation with only a few beggars. I'm not sure if this is appropiate or not. Should you be considered Generous if you rarely help people because they rarely need help?
Last edited by Trotterdam on Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Merconitonitopia
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Postby Merconitonitopia » Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:24 am

Just to be a stickler, even percent of income would be troublesome. Poorer people need to keep a higher proportion of their income for necessities (hence tax brackets). Is a poor man who gives one percent of his income really less generous than a man who makes ten times his income, and gives two percent?
Also, taxes throw a wrench in things, especially with nations with no disposable income.

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Candlewhisper Archive
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Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:24 am

Well, as the unit here is measured by currency landing in the beggars cup, the measurement here assumes that a rich man giving 1% of a million dollars is more generous than a poor man giving 10% of one hundred dollars. I can see the moral argument why the latter is more generous, but in terms of this index, the metric doesn't need to appreciate the context.

However, it should certainly be the case that disposable income should factor in here, and currently it doesn't.
The game build doesn't let us use endpoint stats easily though, and any stat that inserts end tax rate back into a calculation creates all sorts of nasty loops.

Will need to bounce this around a bit, have some team thoughts on it.
Last edited by Candlewhisper Archive on Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Trotterdam » Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:29 am

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:Well, as the unit here is measured by currency landing in the beggars cup, the measurement here assumes that a rich man giving 1% of a million dollars is more generous than a poor man giving 10% of one hundred dollars. I can see the moral argument why the latter is more generous, but in terms of this index, the metric doesn't need to appreciate the context.
The debate here is whether is makes sense to call the thing measured with this unit "Generosity", or whether it would be preferable to change either the unit or the name of the census.

Obviously, once you have decided the unit, there's a lot less ambiguity about how to calculate it.

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Candlewhisper Archive
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Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:29 am

Yes, definitely due a rethink. Suggestions welcome, of course.
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Postby Vivolkha » Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:43 am

As it stands, this new stat would be overly redundant with Compassion.
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Postby Wesleyisbestnationhere » Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:45 am

i support :)

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Postby Alinghi Federal-Democratic Republic » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:28 am

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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:19 pm

Leutria wrote:I would also love to hear the reasoning for this. I wouldn’t mind another stat that Leutria naturally does well in, but I am not sure what new thing this captures?

I'm sure sure if it's interesting enough to be public, but having a metric for the part of the social net that isn't government backed would be useful for calculating things like poverty.

Trotterdam wrote:
Candlewhisper Archive wrote:Well, as the unit here is measured by currency landing in the beggars cup, the measurement here assumes that a rich man giving 1% of a million dollars is more generous than a poor man giving 10% of one hundred dollars. I can see the moral argument why the latter is more generous, but in terms of this index, the metric doesn't need to appreciate the context.
The debate here is whether is makes sense to call the thing measured with this unit "Generosity", or whether it would be preferable to change either the unit or the name of the census.

Obviously, once you have decided the unit, there's a lot less ambiguity about how to calculate it.

Charitable Giving? I dunno. Generosity seems pretty descriptive me.
Last edited by Aclion on Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Polis Diamonil
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Postby Polis Diamonil » Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:19 pm

A common complaint by people who oppose welfare systems is that they aren't lacking in generosity just because they don't support tax-funded redistribution. The claim is often made that the real support of society is based on the generosity of the citizens rather than the compassion of the government, since the government's welfare programs are inevitably far more impersonal, as well as being commonly politicized and nearly always less efficient. I've seen this before. The Generosity metric would help represent this disparity.

If a nation is high in generosity but low in compassion, based on my thoughts above, I would expect that to represent an uncompassionate government ruling over a compassionate people, and I can imagine how that could be someone's ideal of how governments should operate. If a nation is low in generosity but high in compassion, I would expect that to represent a compassionate government ruling over a people inclined to take advantage of all generosities, and while I don't think that sounds like something people would idealize, I can imagine how that could be someone's expectation of how compassion could go wrong in society.

I have no insight into the method by which the metric is being proposed for implementation, but I hope this post helps people understand how compassion and generosity could potentially measure/report different things about the politics of a society.
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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:01 pm

Polis Diamonil wrote:The claim is often made that the real support of society is based on the generosity of the citizens rather than the compassion of the government, since the government's welfare programs are inevitably far more impersonal, as well as being commonly politicized and nearly always less efficient.
Less efficient in terms of bureaucratic overhead, maybe, but also more likely to reach everyone who needs help, rather than only the people who know where to find someone willing to help them.

Polis Diamonil wrote:If a nation is high in generosity but low in compassion, based on my thoughts above, I would expect that to represent an uncompassionate government ruling over a compassionate people, and I can imagine how that could be someone's ideal of how governments should operate. If a nation is low in generosity but high in compassion, I would expect that to represent a compassionate government ruling over a people inclined to take advantage of all generosities, and while I don't think that sounds like something people would idealize, I can imagine how that could be someone's expectation of how compassion could go wrong in society.
I'm pretty sure the Compassion score is also supposed to represent the mentality of your people at large, not of the government. (That's what the Welfare score is for.)


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