NationStates

Hi,

I'd like to suggest that deck value is added as a category that confers a world ranking, as well as regional and national trophies.

We already have rankings and trophies for several very disparate aspects of the game, ranging from various gameplay mechanics (population, residency, endorsements, influence), to all sorts of statistics based on issues and WA votes.

Given that trading cards are now an full-fledged part of the game (important enough to have their own section in the FAQ), I think it would make sense to add rankings and trophies based on deck values. All nations have a deck value, whether they participate in the cards game or not---same as how all nations have endorsements, and associated rankings and trophies, whether they participate in the WA game or not.

Having rankings and trophies based on card value would help promote participation to the cards subgame, and it would also help provide recognition to those who excel at it.

Additionally, regional rankings and trophies would help bring some regional-level activity to the cards subgame, e.g., regions encouraging their nations to get involved in order to boost the regional ranking.

Thanks,
TNL.

I love the idea of making cards into something that has a stat and a badge, it rewards people for investing time into cards (in reference to farmers) and it almost rewards people with a potential for getting a better card next season as the stat badge is higher.

Plus Koem needs to be in a top 1st stat collection xD

I fully support this proposition
It is almost as if I thought it up

I don't think that it has any precedent in terms of minigame stuff appearing outside of minigames, but cards are basically the most involved and thought out activity since r/d. Players who participate in NS cards can put hundreds of hours into high-value decks or unique and creative collections, and that certainly keeps my interest.

It's worth considering that work.

if i may make a request to also make a special badge for anyone who collects say 20 or more copies of their own nations card.

Catsfern wrote:if i may make a request to also make a special badge for anyone who collects say 20 or more copies of their own nations card.

You just want that because you have a card.

Pacomia wrote:

Catsfern wrote:if i may make a request to also make a special badge for anyone who collects say 20 or more copies of their own nations card.

You just want that because you have a card.

dam right I want that, but also it would be cool for any other self colectors

Love this idea

I love the idea even if it is just a badge that goes on our cards.

I do also agree that this is on a similar scale to R/D in popularity but you can play at anytime!

rewards are an important part of keeping players interested as it is a goal to strive for

When looking at the nations posting so far, I´d say, it´s rather self-explaining why I (and I assume, most of the other "single nation" or "small" players) won´t be to "amused" if the "card game" shows any repercussions in the NS-game other than being listed (ranked) as it´s done at the moment.
Farmers and the like don´t "invest time in the game", they invest time in their own greed and desire for being some "big cheese" somehow. This (imo unfair and somehow even disgusting) behaviour shouldn´t be encouraged and rewarded as well by some sort of "official" recognition (like badges, further rankings, aso), since thousands of "single nation" or, as you might call them, "small" players in NS, which would never ever have a real chance to get some "badges" stand against at max a few dozens of "big farmers" fighting in a closed game among themselves. As Coffin-breathe wrote in an other thread, it would only be a "fair" and "acceptable for everyone" option, if there would be only one card-receiving nation for every player, and everyone started anew without massive accumulated "bank" and "unlimited card space".
And more than this, there should not be a competition of "amass-collections", but of "themed collections", which imo distinguishes "real collections (those where someone really has his heart and interest in)" from simple "big amassings of similar cards from a bunch of farms and calling it a collection" only on reason of "because I can". I´d say, the best, and/or most original and creative collections go mainly unnoticed, because their owners don´t brag about; they don´t have to, because they collect for their own purpose and desire, not for "big show-offs".

Golly

I entirely agree. Anyone with more than 1 nation should get all their nations DEAT'd as there is a risk of cards being played on more than one account.

In all seriousness Card farming takes an immense amount of time if you do it a lot and can reap very little about points. People do it for their own wealth - but that's why people buy and sell cards. For money, value, to collect impressive collections and more. This rewards player who put a lot of time into the sub game as at the end of the day if the Administration team chose to all the work could vanish.

Tarockanien wrote:When looking at the nations posting so far, I´d say, it´s rather self-explaining why I (and I assume, most of the other "single nation" or "small" players) won´t be to "amused" if the "card game" shows any repercussions in the NS-game other than being listed (ranked) as it´s done at the moment.

I am not sure what repercussions you are talking about. Nations that don't want to participate in the cards game will... just not have a trophy that they already don't have. It will basically have zero effect on them.

It is no different than the existing trophy for endorsements: If a nation decides they want to stay out of the WA, they just don't get a trophy for endorsements, a trophy they didn't have to begin with. So, they are not affected by the existence of the trophy whatsoever.

Tarockanien wrote:Farmers and the like don´t "invest time in the game", they invest time in their own greed and desire for being some "big cheese" somehow. This (imo unfair and somehow even disgusting) behaviour shouldn´t be encouraged and rewarded as well by some sort of "official" recognition (like badges, further rankings, aso), since thousands of "single nation" or, as you might call them, "small" players in NS, which would never ever have a real chance to get some "badges" stand against at max a few dozens of "big farmers" fighting in a closed game among themselves. As Coffin-breathe wrote in an other thread, it would only be a "fair" and "acceptable for everyone" option, if there would be only one card-receiving nation for every player, and everyone started anew without massive accumulated "bank" and "unlimited card space".

I am not sure what is "unfair" about card farming. It's not like card farmers (myself included) have an army of people that each are in charge of managing a puppet and then gift us the proceeds. We have to put in a lot of effort answering issues, opening packs, transferring cards and bank from dozens of puppets.

What is more, everyone can do it if they choose to invest the time. If you choose not to, that's your choice and it's perfectly fine. But just because you chose not to take advantage of a game mechanic that is open to everyone on equal terms, you cannot go around accusing those that made the opposite choice of being unfair. (I'm not even going to touch on the term "disgusting" you used...)

One more note here: This is not the only aspect of the game where players can benefit from having a lot of puppets. R/D is another example, and so is issues answering (this has been diminished with the emergence of detailed tables of issue effects). In all of these cases, players can decide whether they are willing to make the time investment to take advantage of the opportunities multiple puppets afford them. If they make the time investment, they reap the benefits. If not, then they lose these benefits, but save themselves a lot of time.

Tarockanien wrote:And more than this, there should not be a competition of "amass-collections", but of "themed collections", which imo distinguishes "real collections (those where someone really has his heart and interest in)" from simple "big amassings of similar cards from a bunch of farms and calling it a collection" only on reason of "because I can". I´d say, the best, and/or most original and creative collections go mainly unnoticed, because their owners don´t brag about; they don´t have to, because they collect for their own purpose and desire, not for "big show-offs".

I am not sure what collections have to do with my proposal, as collections do not factor into the rankings and trophies I proposed.

That said, I'd definitely be in favor of some mechanism for highlighting exceptional collections. Ponderosa has already started such an effort, by maintaining the collection thread in the cards forum (where you'll notice, by the way, that many of the most unique collections belong to players who engage in card farming).

If we could also have some game mechanism for highlighting collections, I'd be all for that. But that is a separate suggestion altogether.

---

I really hope the admins will consider this suggestion. Trading Cards is an emerging game feature that hundreds of nations participate in. It offers a lot of opportunities for regional development and interfacing with other aspects of the game. Recognizing it with rankings and trophies, as we do with pretty much every other aspect of the game, would help bring some well-deserved attention to these opportunities.

Tarockanien wrote:And more than this, there should not be a competition of "amass-collections", but of "themed collections", which imo distinguishes "real collections (those where someone really has his heart and interest in)" from simple "big amassings of similar cards from a bunch of farms and calling it a collection" only on reason of "because I can". I´d say, the best, and/or most original and creative collections go mainly unnoticed, because their owners don´t brag about; they don´t have to, because they collect for their own purpose and desire, not for "big show-offs".

Very interesting. Question: if these theme collectors that you speak of are characterized by having 'real interest and heart' and collect 'for their own purpose and desire', wouldn't the very idea of featuring such players in some form of competitive arena contradict their game play intentions? Wouldn't we run the risk of using subjective criteria to create a new generation of 'big cheeses' and 'big show offs'? Worse yet, sans the ability of an objective measurement to make evaluations on 'themes' when the number of cards isn't among the criteria, how could any ranking escape being merely a collection of prejudices and biases toward certain theme concepts, while being against others?

The Northern Light wrote:Hi,

I'd like to suggest that deck value is added as a category that confers a world ranking, as well as regional and national trophies.

We already have rankings and trophies for several very disparate aspects of the game, ranging from various gameplay mechanics (population, residency, endorsements, influence), to all sorts of statistics based on issues and WA votes.

Given that trading cards are now an full-fledged part of the game (important enough to have their own section in the FAQ), I think it would make sense to add rankings and trophies based on deck values. All nations have a deck value, whether they participate in the cards game or not---same as how all nations have endorsements, and associated rankings and trophies, whether they participate in the WA game or not.

Having rankings and trophies based on card value would help promote participation to the cards subgame, and it would also help provide recognition to those who excel at it.

Additionally, regional rankings and trophies would help bring some regional-level activity to the cards subgame, e.g., regions encouraging their nations to get involved in order to boost the regional ranking.

Thanks,
TNL.

A capital idea TNL. Well stated from start to finish, I would love to see this come to pass.

I also support this idea

Toerana wrote:I entirely agree. Anyone with more than 1 nation should get all their nations DEAT'd as there is a risk of cards being played on more than one account.

In all seriousness Card farming takes an immense amount of time if you do it a lot and can reap very little about points. People do it for their own wealth - but that's why people buy and sell cards. For money, value, to collect impressive collections and more. This rewards player who put a lot of time into the sub game as at the end of the day if the Administration team chose to all the work could vanish.

I mean i used to have 32 card funneling puppets to support an operation to collect 100 copies of my own nations card, but those nations are no longer in service because my goal has been achieved

The Northern Light wrote:

Tarockanien wrote:When looking at the nations posting so far, I´d say, it´s rather self-explaining why I (and I assume, most of the other "single nation" or "small" players) won´t be to "amused" if the "card game" shows any repercussions in the NS-game other than being listed (ranked) as it´s done at the moment.

I am not sure what repercussions you are talking about. Nations that don't want to participate in the cards game will... just not have a trophy that they already don't have. It will basically have zero effect on them.

It is no different than the existing trophy for endorsements: If a nation decides they want to stay out of the WA, they just don't get a trophy for endorsements, a trophy they didn't have to begin with. So, they are not affected by the existence of the trophy whatsoever.

The difference is that this is something that can be achieved legally through scripts. Unlike other trophies that either can't, or for which scripts add little if any advantage.

Giant Baba wrote:

Tarockanien wrote:And more than this, there should not be a competition of "amass-collections", but of "themed collections", which imo distinguishes "real collections (those where someone really has his heart and interest in)" from simple "big amassings of similar cards from a bunch of farms and calling it a collection" only on reason of "because I can". I´d say, the best, and/or most original and creative collections go mainly unnoticed, because their owners don´t brag about; they don´t have to, because they collect for their own purpose and desire, not for "big show-offs".

Very interesting. Question: if these theme collectors that you speak of are characterized by having 'real interest and heart' and collect 'for their own purpose and desire', wouldn't the very idea of featuring such players in some form of competitive arena contradict their game play intentions? Wouldn't we run the risk of using subjective criteria to create a new generation of 'big cheeses' and 'big show offs'? Worse yet, sans the ability of an objective measurement to make evaluations on 'themes' when the number of cards isn't among the criteria, how could any ranking escape being merely a collection of prejudices and biases toward certain theme concepts, while being against others?

Which is why success in the card game should remain open ended. I'd be far more appreciative of something that supports that then something that supports the least personal form of card collection.

Aclion wrote:The difference is that this is something that can be achieved legally through scripts. Unlike other trophies that either can't, or for which scripts add little if any advantage.

This is incorrect, for two reasons.

First, it is not possible to (legally) automate card farming. The reason is that issues answered by scripts do not generate new cards. You have to answer them manually to be able to generate cards. I use italics because there are tools for accelerating issue answering, e.g., using NS++ to make switching faster, or using key-binding scripts. While these tools make card farming somewhat easier, the fact remains that the only way to take advantage of card farming is through copious amounts of tedious manual effort.

Second, it is possible to legally completely automate issue answering, and thus management of national statistics. Therefore, if someone wants to aim for trophies based on national stats, they can do so legally in a completely automated way, without any manual input. Given this, it is existing trophies based on stats that benefit the most from scripts, and not the trophies I am proposing here.

Aclion wrote:Which is why success in the card game should remain open ended. I'd be far more appreciative of something that supports that then something that supports the least personal form of card collection.

The introduction of trophies related to deck value would not mean that this is the only way to succeed in the cards game. Success would remain just as open-ended as it is now. I do agree that it would be nice to have means to support other aspects of the game. But those are complementary to, rather than competitive with, what I am proposing.

To give an existing example: We rank regions, and give them trophies, based on their population. That doesn't mean that this is the only way for a region to be successful. As a matter of fact, we have the "Featured region" mechanism exactly as a means to additionally promote other regions that succeed in different ways (e.g., themed WFEs, and so on).

Players work hard on amassing their card deck.

It would be nice to be able to compare my deck value to others in my region more easily. I support this idea.

Provided that admins have time to spare, I'd also be interested in seeing this added.

It'd be like endorsements: a ranking not generated by answering issues, but by doing something completely different, and, taking inspiration from Bormiar's condemnation, we could even refer to the deck value badge as "highest national art value" if said badge needs to be slightly more related to a country-based stat.

The Northern Light wrote:First, it is not possible to (legally) automate card farming. The reason is that issues answered by scripts do not generate new cards. You have to answer them manually to be able to generate cards. I use italics because there are tools for accelerating issue answering, e.g., using NS++ to make switching faster, or using key-binding scripts. While these tools make card farming somewhat easier, the fact remains that the only way to take advantage of card farming is through copious amounts of tedious manual effort.

Huh, I did not know that. So Koem Kab got his collection the hard way, manually answering issues on a multitude of nations?

Seems almost unbelievable.

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:Seems almost unbelievable.

Speaking as another player who spends entirely too much time manually answering issues, I can assure you that it's entirely believable. I don't imagine we spend a lot of time reading your team's fine work, but you can scroll and click without paying a ton of attention if you don't care about the outcomes.

Frisbeeteria wrote:

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:Seems almost unbelievable.

Speaking as another player who spends entirely too much time manually answering issues, I can assure you that it's entirely believable. I don't imagine we spend a lot of time reading your team's fine work, but you can scroll and click without paying a ton of attention if you don't care about the outcomes.

The image of lab rats pushing the button to get some cheese comes vividly to my mind now

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:

The Northern Light wrote:First, it is not possible to (legally) automate card farming. The reason is that issues answered by scripts do not generate new cards. You have to answer them manually to be able to generate cards. I use italics because there are tools for accelerating issue answering, e.g., using NS++ to make switching faster, or using key-binding scripts. While these tools make card farming somewhat easier, the fact remains that the only way to take advantage of card farming is through copious amounts of tedious manual effort.

Huh, I did not know that. So Koem Kab got his collection the hard way, manually answering issues on a multitude of nations?

Seems almost unbelievable.

Yep, see here for admin confirmation.

As a matter of fact, the OP in the thread is one of my own card farming puppets. As soon as cards returned, I rushed to create a farm with an issue-answering API script. Much to my disappointment (I guess delight in retrospect), I realized that it'd have to be done the hard, manual way.