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[Suggestion] Economic Freedom on the Homepage

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Techgrade
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Founded: May 14, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Techgrade » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:21 pm

Merconitonitopia wrote:Alright then. Where would it go on the page?

That's the main problem I'm having with this. We can't put it next to the other three, because there isn't enough space, and it would look much to cluttered.
Moreover, it would make the Economy indicator seem out of place. One non-freedom-related indicator just sort of shoehorned in there next to three freedom indicators.

Where else could we put it?

Edit: Then again, this doesn't look too terrible.
(Image)


nah If you just move the rets of the stats to the right it would fit right in (sorry if I am saying something stupid but I am unable to see the Image
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DISCUSS ECONOMIC FREEDOM STAT ADDED TO THE HOMEPAGE HERE

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Former Citizens of the Nimbus System
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Postby Former Citizens of the Nimbus System » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:34 pm

Merconitonitopia wrote:Alright then. Where would it go on the page?

That's the main problem I'm having with this. We can't put it next to the other three, because there isn't enough space, and it would look much to cluttered.
Moreover, it would make the Economy indicator seem out of place. One non-freedom-related indicator just sort of shoehorned in there next to three freedom indicators.

Where else could we put it?

Edit: Then again, this doesn't look too terrible.
(Image)

Three potential ideas:
1. Replace the 'Economy' indicator with an 'Economic Freedom' indicator. This has the advantage of consistency at the cost of reduced information.
2. Place the 'Economy' indicator on the far left or right of the other three in an arrangement otherwise akin to your image. This separates it from the others to a degree and might be enough to differentiate them, though it's probably the most confusing.
3. Place the 'Economy' indicator either above or below the others or to their left or right with a larger gap. This more clearly differentiates them but might make the screen look a little cluttered.
Last edited by Former Citizens of the Nimbus System on Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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ADD THE ECONOMIC FREEDOM STAT TO OUR HOMEPAGES. DISCUSS RIGHT HERE

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Old bussia
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Postby Old bussia » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:37 pm

i like the 2nd or 3rd option personally, good- ideas :)

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Techgrade
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Techgrade » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:40 pm

yeah, I prefer the 2nd option and I reckon that would work the best.
What If we had: the region above the influence marker in the left hand corner, and the economy on the right, and civil, political, and economic freedoms in the middle?
Last edited by Techgrade on Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pro: Gender equality, capitalism, left leaning capitalism, public healthcare/education, free speech, high immigration, the free market, religious freedom, gun control
Neutral Gay Marriage, communism, socialism, state surveillance, private company domination, drugs, alcohol
Anti justin bieber, abortion, fascism, racism, sexism, short-person-racism, guns, over the top equality

DISCUSS ECONOMIC FREEDOM STAT ADDED TO THE HOMEPAGE HERE

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Merconitonitopia
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Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Merconitonitopia » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:26 pm

Techgrade wrote:yeah, I prefer the 2nd option and I reckon that would work the best.
What If we had: the region above the influence marker in the left hand corner, and the economy on the right, and civil, political, and economic freedoms in the middle?

Not a bad idea.
Image

I decided to give 'Economy' it's own little section. Not absolutely necessary but it seemed right seeing as it was cut off from the section that it was already a part of and would have looked rather out of place on its own.

Moreover, I'm somewhat prejudiced against the 'Economy' stat, as its not very descriptive given we now have real data on GDP, income, industries, etc. and because it sometimes runs contrary to these. So, I figured being a bit more informative wouldn't hurt!

edit: region should probably be above influence really
Last edited by Merconitonitopia on Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Former Citizens of the Nimbus System
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Former Citizens of the Nimbus System » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:50 pm

Merconitonitopia wrote:
Techgrade wrote:yeah, I prefer the 2nd option and I reckon that would work the best.
What If we had: the region above the influence marker in the left hand corner, and the economy on the right, and civil, political, and economic freedoms in the middle?

Not a bad idea.
Image
I decided to give 'Economy' it's own little section. Not absolutely necessary but it seemed right seeing as it was cut off from the section that it was already a part of and would have looked rather out of place on its own.

Moreover, I'm somewhat prejudiced against the 'Economy' stat, as its not very descriptive given we now have real data on GDP, income, industries, etc. and because it sometimes runs contrary to these. So, I figured being a bit more informative wouldn't hurt!

edit: region should probably be above influence really

That genuinely looks superb, to the extent that I would be absolutely fine with it becoming the new UI tomorrow. Excellent work!
Emmet: You might see a mess -
Lord Business: Exactly: a bunch of weird, dorky stuff that ruined my perfectly good stuff!
Emmet: Okay. What I see are people, inspired by each other and by you - people taking what you made and making something new out of it.

The central Nimban cultural ideal summed up in an exchange from The Lego Movie.

ADD THE ECONOMIC FREEDOM STAT TO OUR HOMEPAGES. DISCUSS RIGHT HERE

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Techgrade
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Techgrade » Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:15 pm

Yeah nice that looks really good :)
Pro: Gender equality, capitalism, left leaning capitalism, public healthcare/education, free speech, high immigration, the free market, religious freedom, gun control
Neutral Gay Marriage, communism, socialism, state surveillance, private company domination, drugs, alcohol
Anti justin bieber, abortion, fascism, racism, sexism, short-person-racism, guns, over the top equality

DISCUSS ECONOMIC FREEDOM STAT ADDED TO THE HOMEPAGE HERE

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VoVoDoCo
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Postby VoVoDoCo » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:04 pm

Holy cow! This thread actual blew up a little. :)

Thank you everyone with actual Photoshop skills for spending time here.

Spacial shout out to Merconitonitopiafor the great drafts.

It's important to more effectively indoctrinate train newbies as quick as possible in the basics. Those three starts being the most basic starts there is (with economy being 4th) it's important that we don't cut corners when displaying them.

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VoVoDoCo
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Postby VoVoDoCo » Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:53 am

I'd like a mod to reply to this thread plez

Multiple formats have been presented already, and opposition has been mild at best.

Support has been voiced for multiple reasons:
  • Players often don't realize the three stats on their homepage are actually civil rights, political freedoms, and economic strength. Some have played for literal years before finding this out. This would prevent future confusion.
  • The current formatting is unfair to conservatives and libertarians.
  • It provides a larger variety of homepage looks. Since Communist nations and Libertarian nations look almost identical based on the big bright color stats on the top of our pages, this problem seems self evident.
  • Your WA classification is based on the three stats, yet only two are shown. In the name of follow-through it makes sense to add economic freedom.

As to why economic freedom should be included as opposed to any other stat, it's because it's one of the 3 stats that actually impact your WA classification. Every law that is passed is a question of freedom. So a quick visual representing how your nation views economics tells a lot about your nation without having to do any digging.

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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:34 am

Merconitonitopia wrote:
Techgrade wrote:yeah, I prefer the 2nd option and I reckon that would work the best.
What If we had: the region above the influence marker in the left hand corner, and the economy on the right, and civil, political, and economic freedoms in the middle?

Not a bad idea.
snip
I decided to give 'Economy' it's own little section. Not absolutely necessary but it seemed right seeing as it was cut off from the section that it was already a part of and would have looked rather out of place on its own.

Moreover, I'm somewhat prejudiced against the 'Economy' stat, as its not very descriptive given we now have real data on GDP, income, industries, etc. and because it sometimes runs contrary to these. So, I figured being a bit more informative wouldn't hurt!

edit: region should probably be above influence really

This design is quite good. It makes good use of that sidebar thing that right now doesn't really have much important information.
Last edited by Aclion on Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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United New England
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby United New England » Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:48 pm

There’s an important difference between the social liberties (Civil Rights and Political Freedom) and the Economic Freedom stat. The social liberties are based on protecting the ordinary citizen or “little guy”. Economic Freedom, on the other hand, is often a measure of how much the rich are allowed to ride roughshod over the poor. In other words, it’s more or less the moral opposite of the social liberties. Giving it the same kind of red-to-green ranking system would, therefore, make little sense.
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Former Citizens of the Nimbus System
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Postby Former Citizens of the Nimbus System » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:07 pm

United New England wrote:There’s an important difference between the social liberties (Civil Rights and Political Freedom) and the Economic Freedom stat. The social liberties are based on protecting the ordinary citizen or “little guy”. Economic Freedom, on the other hand, is often a measure of how much the rich are allowed to ride roughshod over the poor. In other words, it’s more or less the moral opposite of the social liberties. Giving it the same kind of red-to-green ranking system would, therefore, make little sense.

That is a very left-wing perspective - not wrong, of course, but still rather biased. A more conservative thinker might argue that it's instead a measure of the commercial power in the hands of individuals as opposed to the state, which would be in line with the previous two. Moreover, there's the fact that all of them share the (in my view) far more important quality of determining the category of one's nation in the eyes of the game, which was the main argument for them being put together in the first place.
Emmet: You might see a mess -
Lord Business: Exactly: a bunch of weird, dorky stuff that ruined my perfectly good stuff!
Emmet: Okay. What I see are people, inspired by each other and by you - people taking what you made and making something new out of it.

The central Nimban cultural ideal summed up in an exchange from The Lego Movie.

ADD THE ECONOMIC FREEDOM STAT TO OUR HOMEPAGES. DISCUSS RIGHT HERE

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United New England
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Postby United New England » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:20 pm

Former Citizens of the Nimbus System wrote:
United New England wrote:There’s an important difference between the social liberties (Civil Rights and Political Freedom) and the Economic Freedom stat. The social liberties are based on protecting the ordinary citizen or “little guy”. Economic Freedom, on the other hand, is often a measure of how much the rich are allowed to ride roughshod over the poor. In other words, it’s more or less the moral opposite of the social liberties. Giving it the same kind of red-to-green ranking system would, therefore, make little sense.

That is a very left-wing perspective - not wrong, of course, but still rather biased. A more conservative thinker might argue that it's instead a measure of the commercial power in the hands of individuals as opposed to the state, which would be in line with the previous two. Moreover, there's the fact that all of them share the (in my view) far more important quality of determining the category of one's nation in the eyes of the game, which was the main argument for them being put together in the first place.


The crucial difference between state power and corporate power is that a truly democratic state is run by the common citizens, while corporations are usually controlled by the wealthy. Maybe what should be actually be changed is the nation classification system.
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Former Citizens of the Nimbus System
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Postby Former Citizens of the Nimbus System » Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:09 pm

United New England wrote:
Former Citizens of the Nimbus System wrote:That is a very left-wing perspective - not wrong, of course, but still rather biased. A more conservative thinker might argue that it's instead a measure of the commercial power in the hands of individuals as opposed to the state, which would be in line with the previous two. Moreover, there's the fact that all of them share the (in my view) far more important quality of determining the category of one's nation in the eyes of the game, which was the main argument for them being put together in the first place.

The crucial difference between state power and corporate power is that a truly democratic state is run by the common citizens, while corporations are usually controlled by the wealthy. Maybe what should be actually be changed is the nation classification system.

You separate 'the common citizens' from 'the wealthy' in a way that a right-wing thinker would perceive as a false dichotomy; they might argue that the individual is responsible for their own rise and fall, including the formation and destruction of corporations, where the state does not prohibit them from doing so. Again, not arguing that this is true but the site itself has to remain as unbiased as possible.
Emmet: You might see a mess -
Lord Business: Exactly: a bunch of weird, dorky stuff that ruined my perfectly good stuff!
Emmet: Okay. What I see are people, inspired by each other and by you - people taking what you made and making something new out of it.

The central Nimban cultural ideal summed up in an exchange from The Lego Movie.

ADD THE ECONOMIC FREEDOM STAT TO OUR HOMEPAGES. DISCUSS RIGHT HERE

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Merconitonitopia
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Postby Merconitonitopia » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:11 pm

United New England, that is a very subjective viewpoint. The game tends to shy away from making value judgements about stats most of the time, so as to leave things up to the interpretation of the user. It's generally best not to enforce any particular worldview on the user where possible.
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Luna Amore
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Postby Luna Amore » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:15 pm

VoVoDoCo wrote:I'd like a mod to reply to this thread plez

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Former Citizens of the Nimbus System
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Postby Former Citizens of the Nimbus System » Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:11 pm

Luna Amore wrote:
VoVoDoCo wrote:I'd like a mod to reply to this thread plez

*Admin

Mods have no control over site design.

That would be good too!
Emmet: You might see a mess -
Lord Business: Exactly: a bunch of weird, dorky stuff that ruined my perfectly good stuff!
Emmet: Okay. What I see are people, inspired by each other and by you - people taking what you made and making something new out of it.

The central Nimban cultural ideal summed up in an exchange from The Lego Movie.

ADD THE ECONOMIC FREEDOM STAT TO OUR HOMEPAGES. DISCUSS RIGHT HERE

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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:02 pm

United New England wrote:There’s an important difference between the social liberties (Civil Rights and Political Freedom) and the Economic Freedom stat. The social liberties are based on protecting the ordinary citizen or “little guy”. Economic Freedom, on the other hand, is often a measure of how much the rich are allowed to ride roughshod over the poor. In other words, it’s more or less the moral opposite of the social liberties. Giving it the same kind of red-to-green ranking system would, therefore, make little sense.

That's not what the economic freedom stat measures,
Total Economic freedom is Laissez-faire Capitalism. Zero Economic freedom is a completely government-controlled economy.
Economic freedom doesn't make a distinction between whose freedom is being restricted. It's a gross measurement of government interference in peoples economic choices. Thus the freedom to unionize to demand better wages and the freedom to build and ugly ass mansion are both economic freedoms.
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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:47 pm

Regardless of what economic freedom you raise, though, it'll still increase Wealth Gaps.

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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:40 am

Trotterdam wrote:Regardless of what economic freedom you raise, though, it'll still increase Wealth Gaps.

Because the wealth gap stat leans way too heavily on economic freedom. It should be treated a lot more like political freedom and corruption.
Last edited by Aclion on Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
A free society rests on four boxes: The soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the ammo box.
XKI: Recruiter, TITO Knight
TEP: WA Executive Staff member
Forest: Cartographer
Oatland: Caesar, Cartographer

It is the citizen's duty to understand which box to use, and when.

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VoVoDoCo
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Postby VoVoDoCo » Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:18 pm

United New England wrote:There’s an important difference between the social liberties (Civil Rights and Political Freedom) and the Economic Freedom stat. The social liberties are based on protecting the ordinary citizen or “little guy”. Economic Freedom, on the other hand, is often a measure of how much the rich are allowed to ride roughshod over the poor. In other words, it’s more or less the moral opposite of the social liberties. Giving it the same kind of red-to-green ranking system would, therefore, make little sense.

Those top three stats don't measure the morality of a nation. They measure freedom.

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VoVoDoCo
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Postby VoVoDoCo » Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:19 pm

Luna Amore wrote:
VoVoDoCo wrote:I'd like a mod to reply to this thread plez

*Admin

Mods have no control over site design.

I couldn't remember what they were called lol thank you.

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Valgora
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Postby Valgora » Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:45 pm

VoVoDoCo wrote:Multiple formats have been presented already, and opposition has been mild at best.

Support has been voiced for multiple reasons:
  • Players often don't realize the three stats on their homepage are actually civil rights, political freedoms, and economic strength. Some have played for literal years before finding this out. This would prevent future confusion.

I suppose this is a fair point. However, the words used to describe a nation's economy appear to point towards the idea that it is talking about the economy and not the economic freedom of the nation.
  • The current formatting is unfair to conservatives and libertarians.

  • I disagree. The current formatting is not unfair to anyone except to left libertarian nations only because the game considers all socialist countries to have the government/state in complete control of the means of production.
    And it especially ain't unfair to libertarians because libertarianism ain't only a right-wing ideology.
  • It provides a larger variety of homepage looks. Since Communist nations and Libertarian nations look almost identical based on the big bright color stats on the top of our pages, this problem seems self evident.

  • Possibly. But I don't believe that it would change the look of the homepage to a significant degree. It would just really include an extra stat along side the ones that are shown already.
  • Your WA classification is based on the three stats, yet only two are shown. In the name of follow-through it makes sense to add economic freedom.

  • As to why economic freedom should be included as opposed to any other stat, it's because it's one of the 3 stats that actually impact your WA classification. Every law that is passed is a question of freedom. So a quick visual representing how your nation views economics tells a lot about your nation without having to do any digging.

    The point about the WA classification is the best point you've made in this post.
    It makes sense that the stats that determine your nation's WA classification should be shown on the nation's homepage.
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    VoVoDoCo
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    Postby VoVoDoCo » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:13 pm

    Valgora wrote:The point about the WA classification is the best point you've made in this post.
    It makes sense that the stats that determine your nation's WA classification should be shown on the nation's homepage.

    If that's enough to win ur support, I'm content leaving it at that.

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    United New England
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    Postby United New England » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:36 pm

    VoVoDoCo wrote:
    United New England wrote:There’s an important difference between the social liberties (Civil Rights and Political Freedom) and the Economic Freedom stat. The social liberties are based on protecting the ordinary citizen or “little guy”. Economic Freedom, on the other hand, is often a measure of how much the rich are allowed to ride roughshod over the poor. In other words, it’s more or less the moral opposite of the social liberties. Giving it the same kind of red-to-green ranking system would, therefore, make little sense.

    Those top three stats don't measure the morality of a nation. They measure freedom.


    Two of them measure social liberties, and one measures economic strength (which, as you know, is different from economic freedom).
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