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[Suggestion] Economic Freedom on the Homepage

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Ghost Land
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Founded: Feb 14, 2014
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Ghost Land » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:32 pm

VoVoDoCo wrote:
Ghost Land wrote:For the record, I see nothing wrong with the green-red colour scheme, and without meaning to sound like an old man yelling at a cloud, those colours didn't always use to be there, being added as part of the Rift theme in 2015.

Really? I had no idea. I started playing at about that time. Musta looked weird. You wouldn't happen to have a pic of it saved for some odd reason would you?

EDIT: I think the nation I was using was made in 2016 but idk

One of my older, now dead nations in 2015

From the Wayback Machine in 2012

In fact, using the antiquity theme, even now I still don't see those colours except on the "rank" page.
Last edited by Ghost Land on Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Forum account/puppet of 60s Music.
Originally joined 24 April 2012.
Did not try to join the forum on 14 February 2014 when I created this nation.
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Anti: Democratic Party, The Clintons, abortion, gay marriage, gun control, #MeToo, communism, forced diversity, SJWs

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VoVoDoCo
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Founded: Sep 07, 2017
Corporate Bordello

Postby VoVoDoCo » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:37 pm

Ghost Land wrote:
VoVoDoCo wrote:Really? I had no idea. I started playing at about that time. Musta looked weird. You wouldn't happen to have a pic of it saved for some odd reason would you?

EDIT: I think the nation I was using was made in 2016 but idk

One of my older, now dead nations in 2015

From the Wayback Machine in 2012

In fact, using the antiquity theme, even now I still don't see those colours except on the "rank" page.

Oh duh. I've used that filter. Decent enough. If we choose to f*ck up the economic freedom stat I may resort to using that lol

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Ghost Land
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Ghost Land » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:42 pm

VoVoDoCo wrote:
Ghost Land wrote:One of my older, now dead nations in 2015

From the Wayback Machine in 2012

In fact, using the antiquity theme, even now I still don't see those colours except on the "rank" page.

Oh duh. I've used that filter. Decent enough. If we choose to f*ck up the economic freedom stat I may resort to using that lol

Now this is getting me all nostalgic about the way NS was back in 2012-2013 as a whole. I still am not a big fan of the "notices" (also added in 2015 with the Rift theme, though it was back-ported to Century and Antiquity too for some reason) or many of the other extra features that have been added since then; I could even do without the challenge game, often only playing it because I feel an obligation to get to the top (though it is fun sometimes). I even liked the moderation style of 2010-2013 better; fewer looms and unofficial warnings, and more-authoritative moderators in general. When I joined we didn't even have factbooks, and there was no forum view for the RMB (which is one newer feature I do very much appreciate).
Forum account/puppet of 60s Music.
Originally joined 24 April 2012.
Did not try to join the forum on 14 February 2014 when I created this nation.
Conservative libertarian
Pro: Republican Party, Donald Trump, tougher border laws, 1st/2nd Amendments, benevolent dictators
Anti: Democratic Party, The Clintons, abortion, gay marriage, gun control, #MeToo, communism, forced diversity, SJWs

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Merconitonitopia
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Founded: Jul 29, 2013
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Merconitonitopia » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:46 pm

Stoklomolvi wrote:Maybe at the 0 mark, the colours flip? So, at 0, the stat can be named economic freedom, but the colour would basically be grey. From 0 to 100, the stat would go from grey to green and be titled "Economic Freedom". From 0 to -100, the stat could be called "Economic Planning" or something. That'd be if the colour "green" is a concern.

That's kinda dumb.

Stoklomolvi wrote:Another colour scheme could range from blue to green, where blue is high economic freedom, and green is high economic planning, or vice versa.

Blue and green makes no sense. First, the green-red scale is fine. Second, if you're going to use a different scale, use blue to red. Capitalism is blue, communism is red.
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VoVoDoCo
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Postby VoVoDoCo » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:00 pm

Merconitonitopia wrote:
Stoklomolvi wrote:Maybe at the 0 mark, the colours flip? So, at 0, the stat can be named economic freedom, but the colour would basically be grey. From 0 to 100, the stat would go from grey to green and be titled "Economic Freedom". From 0 to -100, the stat could be called "Economic Planning" or something. That'd be if the colour "green" is a concern.

That's kinda dumb.

Stoklomolvi wrote:Another colour scheme could range from blue to green, where blue is high economic freedom, and green is high economic planning, or vice versa.

Blue and green makes no sense. First, the green-red scale is fine. Second, if you're going to use a different scale, use blue to red. Capitalism is blue, communism is red.

That's actually a good point. At least there's some kind of dichotomy that makes sense with a red to blue scale, with the people in the middle having a decent looking purple. Of course, the only reason anyone would actually advocate for an alternative to the red and green scale, is to avoid having their nation with an "bad" looking red stat, which they're MORE than happy to give to conservative nations.
Last edited by VoVoDoCo on Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Trotterdam
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Trotterdam » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:10 pm

VoVoDoCo wrote:Really? I had no idea. I started playing at about that time. Musta looked weird. You wouldn't happen to have a pic of it saved for some odd reason would you?
No need. Have a look here:
http://antiquity.nationstates.net/nation=vovodoco
http://century.nationstates.net/nation=vovodoco

The red-and-green is universal for all themes on the issue results page, though.

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VoVoDoCo
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Corporate Bordello

Postby VoVoDoCo » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:13 pm

Trotterdam wrote:
VoVoDoCo wrote:Really? I had no idea. I started playing at about that time. Musta looked weird. You wouldn't happen to have a pic of it saved for some odd reason would you?
No need. Have a look here:
http://antiquity.nationstates.net/nation=vovodoco
http://century.nationstates.net/nation=vovodoco

The red-and-green is universal for all themes on the issue results page, though.

I gotcha. Thank you much!

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Stoklomolvi
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Stoklomolvi » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:22 pm

Merconitonitopia wrote:That's kinda dumb.

Your opinion is noted.

Merconitonitopia wrote:Blue and green makes no sense. First, the green-red scale is fine. Second, if you're going to use a different scale, use blue to red. Capitalism is blue, communism is red.

That's not a bad thought, I kinda like that idea.

Ghost Land wrote:
Stoklomolvi wrote:...And by the way, economic output is average income multiplied by population. ;) ...

Makes sense, I didn't think of that.

I suppose an argument about the whole WA classifications bit is that the economic strength of a nation, independent of the economic freedoms of that nation, do correlate with the WA categories in a way, namely the stereotypical sort of 1950s dogma way. It fits the the original NationStates theme I think, even if the evolution of NS issues and stuff have made it possible to achieve things originally impossible, such as government involvement in the economy and a strong economy, where in the original game, it was basically impossible to have state-owned anything and a strong economy. It would give my nation a more accurate assessment of what it is my nation's WA category, so I guess overall, I don't really have a strong opinion on this matter.
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Candlewhisper Archive
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Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:27 am

My preference would be that the three bars be freedom indicators.

Economic Freedom: Blue is freest, Red is most planned. New adjectives with no value judgement. Importantly, the red and the blue equal in brightness.
Civil Freedom: Yellow is freest, dark green is most regulated.
Political Freedom: Light purple is freest, black is most regulated.

Economic strength would then be mentioned in the text, in the same way many other stats help build front page text (like crime does now). For example "The nation has a powerhouse free market economy, thought to be due to a combination of high economic freedoms and business-friendly government."

I can, however, see that these aesthetics will offend many!
Last edited by Candlewhisper Archive on Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:28 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:05 am

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:Civil Freedom: Yellow is freest, dark green is most regulated.
Political Freedom: Light purple is freest, black is most regulated.
What is your logic for these colors? I don't see it.

I do see the merit of having a different scale for each freedom. If each uses the same color scale, no matter what that scale is, then the most aesthetic nations will always be the ones with the same color for all three, favoring libertarians and totalitarians over more common left-wing and right-wing political ideologies.

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Merconitonitopia
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Founded: Jul 29, 2013
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Merconitonitopia » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:12 am

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:Economic strength would then be mentioned in the text, in the same way many other stats help build front page text (like crime does now).

I disagree. I'd direct you to the design I made, because I made it, but more importantly because I think it would be odd to omit 'Economy'. Its is usually one of the first things I like to look at when I'm checking out a nation, despite its being rather meaningless (perhaps a reworking of this index functions would be in order, but that's beyond the purview of this particular thread).
Candlewhisper Archive wrote:I can, however, see that these aesthetics will offend many!
Quite the premonition, for offend they have!
First thing, the green-red scale works for a few reasons.

1. It looks good, and covers enough of the colour spectrum to be interesting without getting confusing.
2. People can easily understand a green-red scale. People know that it goes green, yellowish-green, yellow (brown in NS), orange, red. Perhaps this has something to do with our kind's history with plants, or simple because its a straight-forward scale that's easy to conceptualise. The point being when people look at a colour they instantly have an understanding of where it lies on this spectrum.
3. People easily recognise the association between green as freedom, and red as unfreedom. Maybe this is because of stop lights or something, but the point is that it makes sense in the context of what its representing (as for 'economy', it makes sense because green = good, red = bad... that's probably also because plants or something).

That's why I suggested the blue-red scale for economic freedom. It essentially ticks all these boxes.

1. Blue, red, and the intermediate purple are all nice colours that wouldn't be jarring next to the green-red scale.
2. Blue --> purple --> red is easy to understand.
3. Most importantly of all (and really why I suggested it in the first place), everyone already has a culturally ingrained idea that capitalism is blue and communism is red.

That's why this makes for a meaningful and pleasing scale,
Capitalism Socialism

...but this sort of doesn't.
Liberalism Conservatism

Granted, I do understand the connection between high civil rights and yellow (liberalism is traditionalism represented by yellow), but I'm not quite sure why the inverse is green. Islam springs to mind, but... well, that can't be right!

Political freedoms is even more egregious, both because I don't see the connection because democracy and purple, but more importantly because the spectrum covers only a single colour. Everyone's nation page would display a different shade of the same colour, either a lighter or darker purple.

PS. In retrospect, both of these pass the second point, so I suppose that's not really a salient point here. Either way, its something to keep in mind (I've seen far too many scales that make use of more of the rainbow than needed, or just rank order colours arbitrarily).
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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:14 am

Merconitonitopia wrote:2. People can easily understand a green-red scale. People know that it goes green, yellowish-green, yellow (brown in NS), orange, red. Perhaps this has something to do with our kind's history with plants,
That would actually be ironic, since it's backwards from how we now use the colors. Green fruit are unripe and should not be eaten. It's when they turn yellow or red that they're ready to pick.

Our history with plants is surely a factor in our attention to this part of the spectrum - indeed, it's why we can even see the difference between red and green at all, since most mammals can't - but it doesn't by itself explain why we consider red to be bad, when the red parts of the plant are the parts we eat. That more likely has do do with other red things, like fire and blood, being associated with danger.

Merconitonitopia wrote:3. People easily recognise the association between green as freedom, and red as unfreedom.
Is it, though? I very often see green used to mean "good" and red to mean "bad" in contexts where freedom has nothing to do with it. That's really the problem here.

Indeed, even in traffic lights, I could argue the symbolism seems to be not so much "green = you are free to go, red = you are required to stop" but "green = it is safe to go, red = you should not cross now because it is dangerous". Red does not mean restriction. Red means danger.

In certain contexts red adopts different connotations, of course, but (A) that's what it means when contrasted with green, and (B) even the socialist use of red signifies "danger", just danger to their enemies. Communist red signifies anger at the bourgeois and the desire to overthrow them from their position of power, by force if necessary. Sure, it's sometimes given more benign intepretations by modern socialists, but that's the original meaning, and it's far from forgotten. The logo of the Dutch Socialist Party is a tomato, because it's the traditional fruit for throwing at people you don't like.

Merconitonitopia wrote:(liberalism is traditionalism represented by yellow)
I was not aware of that.

I'm most inclined to associate yellow with capitalism, actually, due to being the color of gold, and its use by some anarcho-capitalists (though those also support civil rights).

Merconitonitopia wrote:That's why this makes for a meaningful and pleasing scale,
Capitalism Socialism
The problem with that scale is that takes up exactly 1/3rd of the HSV wheel, meaning it'd be impossible to have two additional such scales of equal size without overlap.

Admittedly "equal size" by numbers doesn't necessarily correspond to how humans would perceive it, but still, to have two additional hue ranges that are sufficiently distant from each other, you'd pretty much need to go yellow-to-green and cyan-to-blue, and the latter in particular is intuitively too narrow (cyan just reads as "light blue" to people not versed in color theory). This could be avoided by making one of the scales vary something other than hue, such as white-to-black, but that comes with its own connotations.

Merconitonitopia wrote:Political freedoms is even more egregious, both because I don't see the connection because democracy and purple,
If anything, purple is often associated with royalty and aristocracy.
Last edited by Trotterdam on Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:02 am

I think you guys are really making this change more complicated then it needs to be. The way colors are used in stats has never had a value judgement, because the stat system doesn't make value judgements. Crime and corruption for example are both green when high, red when low, for example.

EDIT: however the fact that this scale makes socialist lite pink is hilarious.
Last edited by Aclion on Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:12 am

I'll confess, I'm talking about this partly because I just think color theory is entertaining. I'm not the one who actually suggested there needs to be a change in the first place (it wouldn't even matter to me, since I'm using one of the themes that doesn't show the colors!), but if people are going to talk about it then I can't resist chipping in.

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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:37 pm

Trotterdam wrote:I'll confess, I'm talking about this partly because I just think color theory is entertaining, [snip] if people are going to talk about it then I can't resist chipping in.

I sympathize, but it's not really an issue specific to the change being suggested, since it's something that affects all the stats, not just economic freedom.
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VoVoDoCo
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Postby VoVoDoCo » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:08 pm

Aclion wrote:
Trotterdam wrote:I'll confess, I'm talking about this partly because I just think color theory is entertaining, [snip] if people are going to talk about it then I can't resist chipping in.

I sympathize, but it's not really an issue specific to the change being suggested, since it's something that affects all the stats, not just economic freedom.

I agree. Whether or not we recolor and recode all 3 stats is an issue for another time. Whether or not economic freedom gets added at all is the million-dollar question.

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Stoklomolvi
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Stoklomolvi » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:40 pm

VoVoDoCo wrote:Whether or not economic freedom gets added at all is the million-dollar question.


If you're wondering whether or not it's a stat, well, I mean it is one: https://www.nationstates.net/page=list_ ... ensusid=48
Demonym: Stoklomolvi
Stoklomolvi Liaoist Federation
Factbook -- Interpol -- Liaoism (old) -- News Agency (old) -- Commerce Comissariat -- Minyang
Defensive Preparedness: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6
Nuclear Launch Protocol: А | Б | В | Г | Д
Leader: Commissar Vladimir Mikhailovich Stuyonovich

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Former Citizens of the Nimbus System
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Former Citizens of the Nimbus System » Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:24 pm

Stoklomolvi wrote:
VoVoDoCo wrote:Whether or not economic freedom gets added at all is the million-dollar question.


If you're wondering whether or not it's a stat, well, I mean it is one: https://www.nationstates.net/page=list_ ... ensusid=48

'to the homepage', as is the subject of this thread, is implicit.
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