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[Suggestion] Economic Freedom on the Homepage

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VoVoDoCo
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[Suggestion] Economic Freedom on the Homepage

Postby VoVoDoCo » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:24 pm

Earlier, I was troubled by my economic freedom stat being "too low." But then I realized that my economic freedom stat (68.89) was super close to my civil freedoms stat (68.97). And very recently is was actually just a touch higher. Both of those things being important to me, that was actually a big relief. Though had that stat been as accessible as the civil rights stat on our homepage, that wouldn't have been an issue.

So quick question: why isn't economic freedom expressed on nation homepages? I know why we won't have it today or tomorrow, there's bigger fish to fry and all programmers work on their free time. I'm grateful for what gets done :hug: .

But why wasn't this done earlier? At the same time civil rights stats were being put into our homepages? Economic freedom seems just as important as civil rights when summarizing the differences between nations, especially with neat visual aids. The homepages of Communist nations and Libertarian nations look very similar, and that seems self evidently wrong.

So beyond programming, which I already acknowledged takes time, is there any other problems with adding that stat? Is there something I'm not seeing? Do you agree with me? Is this the right forum to post this in? :? Yada yada
Last edited by VoVoDoCo on Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Care Lyon
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Postby Care Lyon » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:05 am

Why not have Intelligence, Crime rate, or Corruption level shown? The thing is there are so many factors that it really doesn't matter.

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VoVoDoCo
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Postby VoVoDoCo » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:17 am

Care Lyon wrote:Why not have Intelligence, Crime rate, or Corruption level shown? The thing is there are so many factors that it really doesn't matter.

The difference between two countries with ALL stats being similar with only economic freedom being different could mean the difference between a Laissez-faire nation, Nordic model nation, or a communist nation. Those are HUGE differences.


The difference between two countries with all stats being similar with only intellegence rates being different only tells you how much each nation spends on education and religious policies. Those are super small groups.


The reason civil rights has its own green-red stat spot on our homepages is to make it clear at a glance how intrusive that nation's government is in the personal lives of its citizens. I only want the same for economic freedoms.

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Postby VoVoDoCo » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Care Lyon wrote:Why not have Intelligence, Crime rate, or Corruption level shown? The thing is there are so many factors that it really doesn't matter.

Another way of looking at it is to view your own homepage.

You're a Corporate Bordello. Right underneath of that are 2/3 stats that earned you that classification.
  • Why not add that third one for the sake of completeness?
  • Why not add that third one to be fair to conservative nations?
  • Why not add that third one to make card collecting (which hopefully will be online soon) easier?
  • Since Corporate Bordellos can have different stats amongst themselves (albeit very SMALL differences), why not add that just to clarify which level of economic freedom YOUR corporate bordello is?

After all, it's the combination of civil rights, political freedoms, AND economic freedoms that earn everyone their WA classification. Since 2 out of three are listed underneath their WA classification, wouldn't it be best to list the third as well? Is it not a problem that communist nations, moderate left nations, and Libertarian nations all have stats that look borderline identical, despite having RADICALLY different policy choices in those areas?
Last edited by VoVoDoCo on Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Care Lyon
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Postby Care Lyon » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:29 am

VoVoDoCo wrote:
Care Lyon wrote:Why not have Intelligence, Crime rate, or Corruption level shown? The thing is there are so many factors that it really doesn't matter.

The difference between two countries with ALL stats being similar with only economic freedom being different could mean the difference between a Laissez-faire nation, Nordic model nation, or a communist nation. Those are HUGE differences.


The difference between two countries with all stats being similar with only intellegence rates being different only tells you how much each nation spends on education and religious policies. Those are super small groups.


The reason civil rights has its own green-red stat spot on our homepages is to make it clear at a glance how intrusive that nation's government is in the personal lives of its citizens. I only want the same for economic freedoms.


Why not have Authoritarianism, Corruption, or even Average Disposable Income? The thing is many of the stats are actually the same, and some are opposites. I think the primary three (Civil Rights, Economy, and Political Freedom) are enough to give a brief summary of a nation.

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Care Lyon
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Postby Care Lyon » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:35 am

VoVoDoCo wrote:
Care Lyon wrote:Why not have Intelligence, Crime rate, or Corruption level shown? The thing is there are so many factors that it really doesn't matter.

Another way of looking at it is to view your own homepage.

You're a Corporate Bordello. Right underneath of that are 2/3 stats that earned you that classification.
  • Why not add that third one for the sake of completeness?
  • Why not add that third one to be fair to conservative nations?
  • Why not add that third one to make card collecting (which hopefully will be online soon) easier?
  • Since Corporate Bordellos can have different stats amongst themselves (albeit very SMALL differences), why not add that just to clarify which level of economic freedom YOUR corporate bordello is?

After all, it's the combination of civil rights, political freedoms, AND economic freedoms that earn everyone their WA classification. Since 2 out of three are listed underneath their WA classification, wouldn't it be best to list the third as well? Is it not a problem that communist nations, moderate left nations, and Libertarian nations all have stats that look borderline identical, despite having RADICALLY different policy choices in those areas?


The NS Classification changes primarily over the three main stats on your nation's page. I don't see any reason why any change is needed.

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VoVoDoCo
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Postby VoVoDoCo » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:38 am

Care Lyon wrote:
VoVoDoCo wrote:The difference between two countries with ALL stats being similar with only economic freedom being different could mean the difference between a Laissez-faire nation, Nordic model nation, or a communist nation. Those are HUGE differences.


The difference between two countries with all stats being similar with only intellegence rates being different only tells you how much each nation spends on education and religious policies. Those are super small groups.


The reason civil rights has its own green-red stat spot on our homepages is to make it clear at a glance how intrusive that nation's government is in the personal lives of its citizens. I only want the same for economic freedoms.


Why not have Authoritarianism, Corruption, or even Average Disposable Income? The thing is many of the stats are actually the same, and some are opposites. I think the primary three (Civil Rights, Economy, and Political Freedom) are enough to give a brief summary of a nation.

Put those three stats don't tell you anything about how their economy got strong. Let's compare three democracies with good economies:
  • Nation A- Green stat civil rights+green stat economy+green stat political freedoms
  • Nation B- Yucky brown civil rights+green stat economy+green stat political freedoms
  • Nation C- Green stat civil rights+green stat economy+green stat political freedoms

Which one is the left winged, right winged, and Libertarian one? You probably know which is the right winged one, because due to the current set up with these stats conservative nations automatically look inferior. Immediately. Based on nothing but color scheme. Can you tell the other two apart?

The reason these home pages exists is to provide a general outline of the nation. The reason those three stats on top exist is to provide as much data as possible without reading. It fails to do this.

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VoVoDoCo
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Postby VoVoDoCo » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:40 am

Care Lyon wrote:
VoVoDoCo wrote:Another way of looking at it is to view your own homepage.

You're a Corporate Bordello. Right underneath of that are 2/3 stats that earned you that classification.
  • Why not add that third one for the sake of completeness?
  • Why not add that third one to be fair to conservative nations?
  • Why not add that third one to make card collecting (which hopefully will be online soon) easier?
  • Since Corporate Bordellos can have different stats amongst themselves (albeit very SMALL differences), why not add that just to clarify which level of economic freedom YOUR corporate bordello is?

After all, it's the combination of civil rights, political freedoms, AND economic freedoms that earn everyone their WA classification. Since 2 out of three are listed underneath their WA classification, wouldn't it be best to list the third as well? Is it not a problem that communist nations, moderate left nations, and Libertarian nations all have stats that look borderline identical, despite having RADICALLY different policy choices in those areas?


The NS Classification changes primarily over the three main stats on your nation's page. I don't see any reason why any change is needed.

No, the NS classification changes depending on civil rights, political freedoms, and economic freedoms. The stats listed on our homepages are civil rights, political freedoms, and economic strength. Big difference, since communists and capitalists alike can have strong economies, and doesn't imply any certain policy over another.

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Care Lyon
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Postby Care Lyon » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:42 am

VoVoDoCo wrote:
Care Lyon wrote:
Why not have Authoritarianism, Corruption, or even Average Disposable Income? The thing is many of the stats are actually the same, and some are opposites. I think the primary three (Civil Rights, Economy, and Political Freedom) are enough to give a brief summary of a nation.

Put those three stats don't tell you anything about how their economy got strong. Let's compare three democracies with good economies:
  • Nation A- Green stat civil rights+green stat economy+green stat political freedoms
  • Nation B- Yucky brown civil rights+green stat economy+green stat political freedoms
  • Nation C- Green stat civil rights+green stat economy+green stat political freedoms

Which one is the left winged, right winged, and Libertarian one? You probably know which is the right winged one, because due to the current set up with these stats conservative nations automatically look inferior. Immediately. Based on nothing but color scheme. Can you tell the other two apart?

The reason these home pages exists is to provide a general outline of the nation. The reason those three stats on top exist is to provide as much data as possible without reading. It fails to do this.


"Put those three stats don't tell you anything about how their economy got strong." They don't have to, that is why there are line graphs with historical nation trends. Do you want those on the main page too?
Last edited by Care Lyon on Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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VoVoDoCo
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Postby VoVoDoCo » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:42 am

Here's proof: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=50482

It says economic freedom. The strength of one's economy doesn't impact classification.

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VoVoDoCo
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Postby VoVoDoCo » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:44 am

Care Lyon wrote:
VoVoDoCo wrote:Put those three stats don't tell you anything about how their economy got strong. Let's compare three democracies with good economies:
  • Nation A- Green stat civil rights+green stat economy+green stat political freedoms
  • Nation B- Yucky brown civil rights+green stat economy+green stat political freedoms
  • Nation C- Green stat civil rights+green stat economy+green stat political freedoms

Which one is the left winged, right winged, and Libertarian one? You probably know which is the right winged one, because due to the current set up with these stats conservative nations automatically look inferior. Immediately. Based on nothing but color scheme. Can you tell the other two apart?

The reason these home pages exists is to provide a general outline of the nation. The reason those three stats on top exist is to provide as much data as possible without reading. It fails to do this.


"Put those three stats don't tell you anything about how their economy got strong." They don't have to, that is why there are line graphs with historical nation trends. Do you want those on the main page too?

Of course not. I don't want line graphs for civil rights and political freedoms on those pages. I just want economic freedom (one third of your WA classification) to be treated as fairly as the other two-thirds.

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Care Lyon
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Postby Care Lyon » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:48 am

VoVoDoCo wrote:
Care Lyon wrote:
"Put those three stats don't tell you anything about how their economy got strong." They don't have to, that is why there are line graphs with historical nation trends. Do you want those on the main page too?

Of course not. I don't want line graphs for civil rights and political freedoms on those pages. I just want economic freedom (one third of your WA classification) to be treated as fairly as the other two-thirds.


I honestly don't see what the fuss is about. The main page displays a summary of a nation, and if you want more in depth details, the option is there. Additionally, you can write fact books to add more information. IMO Economic Freedom is important but I just don't care if it is on the main page or not.

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VoVoDoCo
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Postby VoVoDoCo » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:54 am

Care Lyon wrote:
VoVoDoCo wrote:Of course not. I don't want line graphs for civil rights and political freedoms on those pages. I just want economic freedom (one third of your WA classification) to be treated as fairly as the other two-thirds.


I honestly don't see what the fuss is about. The main page displays a summary of a nation, 1. and if you want more in depth details, the option is there. Additionally, you can 2.write fact books to add more information. 3.IMO Economic Freedom is important but I just don't care if it is on the main page or not.


Fair enough. But here's the thing:
1. The same can be said for the civil rights stat. Why make conservative nations (I'm not conservative, so this doesn't affect me btw) look worse at the very beginning of a homoepage they can't edit? Since you can find that info in other ways, why list civil rights at all? Isn't is just taking up space?
2. You can do the same for civil rights. Why don't we just scrap the civil rights stat from our homepages? Same for political freedoms?
3. But you probably care just as much about civil rights right? If civil rights stopped being a stat we saw on our homepages, you'd be okay with that right? You view them equally? So do I, and that's why I believe they should be just as easy to view. Because it's just as critical to the formation of your nation.

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VoVoDoCo
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Postby VoVoDoCo » Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:02 am

In fact Care Lyon, we're both corporate bordellos. But you score 20 whole points ahead of me in economic freedom (good job), that's huge! If it wasn't for this debate I wouldn't have bothered to look. You have way more economic freedom than me, yet despite the fact that I've look at your homepage numerous times (I've seen you around the forum and I always click interesting looking flags or similarly categorized nations), I could've sworn we were in the same circles.


The current system just. Doesn't. Work.


And don't say, "See! You saw my economic freedom stat without a homepage update." I never would've seen it had it not been for this debate. I haven't read your factbooks (or checked to see if you had one honestly) and this just proves just how pitiful our homepages are representing our core economic beliefs.
Last edited by VoVoDoCo on Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Merconitonitopia
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Postby Merconitonitopia » Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:02 am

Not until Human Development Index gets added to the trendline!

I would be against this. Economic freedoms are already indicated on the homepage in many ways. It dictates UN category, which in turn dictates the country's description. It is related to the income tax rate, which is readily displayed. The description of the nation's economy covers what is already displayed on the economy chart.
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Care Lyon
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Postby Care Lyon » Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:04 am

VoVoDoCo wrote:In fact Care Lyon, we're both corporate bordellos. But you score 20 whole points ahead of me in economic freedom (good job), that's huge! If it wasn't for this debate I wouldn't have bothered to look. You have way more economic freedom than me, yet despite the fact that I've look at your homepage numerous times (I've seen you around the forum and I always click interesting looking flags or similarly categorized nations), I could've sworn we were in the same circles.


The current system just. Doesn't. Work.


And don't say, "See! You saw my economic freedom stat without a homepage update." I never would've seen it had it not been for this debate. I haven't read your factbooks (or checked to see if you had one honestly) and this just proves just how pitiful our homepages are representing our core economic beliefs.


Here is a social democratic like state that has high economic freedom.

https://www.nationstates.net/nation=cli ... ensusid=48

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Postby Merconitonitopia » Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:08 am

I wouldn't call 16.9% government expenditure "social democratic". Developed countries are generally around 30-60%.
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VoVoDoCo
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Postby VoVoDoCo » Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:09 am

Merconitonitopia wrote:Not until Human Development Index gets added to the trendline!

I would be against this. Economic freedoms are already indicated o n the homepage in many ways. It dictates UN category, which in turn dictates the country's description. It is related to the income tax rate, which is readily displayed. The description of the nation's economy covers what is already displayed on the economy chart.

It does dictate the UN category, but despite me and Care Lyon being in the same category, it failed to mention that (s)he was 20 points higher than me in economic freedom, which is huge. Also, do you have the differences between a Right Winged Utopia and a Moralistic Democracy without looking? Probably not. The difference is in the economic freedom stat, which one has to search to find, unlike the other two stats that are equally critical in the formation of our classifications.

You can nations with free markets and moderate taxes. Usually this is in the form of a very large military. Tax rates are by no means of way of judging the willingness of nations to pursue free market solutions.


The description of the economy is more times than not a roast of right winged economics and is often very wrong. For instance, my nation's economic description says "Their poorer citizens, however, are mostly starving to death" despite me having a high obesity rate and hdi.


If you're referring to the part that says something like, "driven almost entirely by the private sector" , that's so vague it lacks any substance.

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Postby VoVoDoCo » Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:14 am

Care Lyon wrote:
VoVoDoCo wrote:In fact Care Lyon, we're both corporate bordellos. But you score 20 whole points ahead of me in economic freedom (good job), that's huge! If it wasn't for this debate I wouldn't have bothered to look. You have way more economic freedom than me, yet despite the fact that I've look at your homepage numerous times (I've seen you around the forum and I always click interesting looking flags or similarly categorized nations), I could've sworn we were in the same circles.


The current system just. Doesn't. Work.


And don't say, "See! You saw my economic freedom stat without a homepage update." I never would've seen it had it not been for this debate. I haven't read your factbooks (or checked to see if you had one honestly) and this just proves just how pitiful our homepages are representing our core economic beliefs.


Here is a social democratic like state that has high economic freedom.

https://www.nationstates.net/nation=cli ... ensusid=48


Exactly. Based off that person's tax rates, you would assume they were socialist. That's why economic freedom needs its own stat on our homepages, to avoid confusion.

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Merconitonitopia
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Postby Merconitonitopia » Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:39 am

VoVoDoCo wrote:It does dictate the UN category, but despite me and Care Lyon being in the same category, it failed to mention that (s)he was 20 points higher than me in economic freedom, which is huge.

I can't help but feel that this is relatively trivial. It also doesn't even hint at a lot of the stats that are notable about a country. You d have no idea that people in Kindjal live to 107 years on average from their description and other tabs.
Also, do you have the differences between a Right Winged Utopia and a Moralistic Democracy without looking? Probably not.

As it happens, I've already memorised every category and their specifications, but I suppose that's besides the point. Even if I hadn't, those categories still imply real differences that one can figure from a glance. "Oh, this country probably has laissez-faire economic policy" doesn't spring into my mind when I read "Moralistic Democracy", but it'd be almost obvious were the country labeled "Right-wing Utopia".
Tax rates are by no means of way of judging the willingness of nations to pursue free market solutions.

That's a silly statement, for a libertarian no less!
The description of the economy is more times than not a roast of right winged economics and is often very wrong. For instance, my nation's economic description says "Their poorer citizens, however, are mostly starving to death" despite me having a high obesity rate and hdi.

Good ol' Max Barry's bias eh? Either way, it gets the point across that your country is highly Darwinian, presumably with few protections and safety nets for the "disadvantaged". It communicates substantive and easily digestible information about a country's economy (even if it is ultimately an untrue assumption judging by the fact that your poor actually have a fairly high average income.)
If you're referring to the part that says something like, "driven almost entirely by the private sector" , that's so vague it lacks any substance.

Are you honestly joking? How more tangible and substantive an indicator of economic liberalism could you get than that?
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Merconitonitopia
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Postby Merconitonitopia » Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:41 am

VoVoDoCo wrote:Exactly. Based off that person's tax rates, you would assume they were socialist. That's why economic freedom needs its own stat on our homepages, to avoid confusion.

Ha. Just checked their tax rate. Makes you wonder what exactly they're doing with the remaining 50% of people's income.
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VoVoDoCo
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Postby VoVoDoCo » Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:53 am

Merconitonitopia wrote:"It also doesn't even hint at a lot of the stats that are notable about a country."

I'm not trying to squeeze every stat into every homepage. But our WA classifications are divided into 3 equally important parts, one of those, for some reason, require investigation to figure out. Or you have to make assumptions based on the rest of the homepage, which we've proven can be faulty at best.


Merconitonitopia wrote:"Oh, this country probably has laissez-faire economic policy" doesn't spring into my mind when I read "Moralistic Democracy", but it'd be almost obvious were the country labeled "Right-wing Utopia".

But when comparing other kinds of classifications, it becomes much easier. "Their civil rights are a yucky brown color. So THAT'S the difference." You don't get that same luxary with other nations.

Merconitonitopia wrote:"That's a silly statement, for a libertarian no less!"

Not really. We've already provided a nation with pretty severe tax rates that are rated in the top 3% of nations in economic freedom. Not to mention we're using NS logic, not real world correlations.


Merconitonitopia wrote:"Good ol' Max Barry's bias eh? Either way, it gets the point across that your country is highly Darwinian, presumably with few protections and safety nets for the "disadvantaged". It communicates substantive and easily digestible information about a country's economy (even if it is ultimately an untrue assumption judging by the fact that your poor actually have a fairly high average income.)"

I can live with the bias. I'm not asking for stat changes like many of my fellow free marketeers do. I just want the header of my nation to differentiate, so that I can tell a communist nation, right wing nation, left wing nation, and libertarian nation apart without having to read. If resistance to adding economic freedom ultimately boils down to "you can just click the links", can't the same be said for the other freedoms? Why do the libertarians, moderate leftist, and communists have to have similar headings?


Merconitonitopia wrote:"Are you honestly joking? How more tangible and substantive an indicator of economic liberalism could you get than that?"

Me and Care Lyon both have that description, despite him being a whole 20 points ahead of me in that category.

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VoVoDoCo
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Postby VoVoDoCo » Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:57 am

Merconitonitopia wrote:
VoVoDoCo wrote:Exactly. Based off that person's tax rates, you would assume they were socialist. That's why economic freedom needs its own stat on our homepages, to avoid confusion.

Ha. Just checked their tax rate. Makes you wonder what exactly they're doing with the remaining 50% of people's income.

nseconomy won't pull them up. I'm sure their government waste is ridiculous lol

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Merconitonitopia
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Postby Merconitonitopia » Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:02 am

VoVoDoCo wrote:I'm not trying to squeeze every stat into every homepage. But our WA classifications are divided into 3 equally important parts, one of those, for some reason, require investigation to figure out. Or you have to make assumptions based on the rest of the homepage, which we've proven can be faulty at best.

Look, you're honestly making this out to be a much more difficult endeavor than it is. I really don't know what to say on this. Category and the economy chart are enough to give you a basic overview of economic policy, save the finer details, in only a few seconds of opening the tab. I only need to make one click to see that a nation is socialist, for example.

Clintonburge is kind of an aberrant case, and an example of NS being sort of dumb. At any rate, a nation with a very odd economic system should require some level of investigation for one to grasp it. The economic freedom stat sure doesn't cut it.
VoVoDoCo wrote:Me and Care Lyon both have that description, despite him being a whole 20 points ahead of me in that category.

You're almost identical in terms of private sector activity as percentage of GDP, being what that line is referring to. Your nation is at 92.8% and Care Lyon at 95.1%.
Last edited by Merconitonitopia on Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Abuddania » Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:02 am

I Agree
+1
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