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[Proposal] Splitting the "Socialism" policy

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East Angria
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[Proposal] Splitting the "Socialism" policy

Postby East Angria » Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:36 am

I have a problem with the "Socialism" policy. The problem is that the title doesn't fit the description.
The policy's flavor text describes a centrally planned economy, which historically was a common feature of nominally socialist countries, but is not a defining factor of socialism and far from the only possible realization of socialism.

Many other nations in my region, Anarchy, are affected by this confusion as well. Many "nations" there are socialist, but don't have a planned economy.
Therefore, I propose splitting the policy into two different new ones:

Planned Economy: Industry is owned and run by the government in a centrally planned economy.
Worker-Controlled Economy: Industry is owned and run by the workers themselves in a democratic manner.

Or something along those lines. The second option actually explicitly pops up in Issue #339, option 1, which results in workers having seized control of the economy. I think there are a few other issues which point in this direction as well.

I think the distinction is important because first, socialism is a very vague term and can mean a lot of different things. Equating it with a planned economy, though, is like saying feminim is about enacting female quotas in companies' executive boards. Many feminists may want to do that, but it's still far from all of them and there is a whole lot of other things that feminists may or may not want.

Second, I like nationstates because it allows people to portray a wide range of political philosophies, social policies, and economic theories that aren't common in the real world. Branding the wide range of left-wing nations here with an oversimplification along the lines of "socialism is when the government does stuff, and the more stuff it does, the socialister it is" isn't doing them justice.

Third, I'm playing a nation that does have socialism but does not have a centrally planned economy. I want this to be reflected by the policies and I see no reason why those two things should only occur at the same time.
the People of East Angria, a.k.a. the Anarchist Commune of Sassony a free territory covering most of the Low Countries, northern and western Germany, and continental Denmark, with a distinct social anarchist, pacifist, and solarpunk vibe.
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Anarchitaria
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Postby Anarchitaria » Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:53 am

I, as an anarchist, would like to see a change indeed definition with regards to the "Socialism" policy.

May it also be noted that the "Economy" pie chart would need an update as well. There are currently four components of the pie chart: "Private Industry", "State-Owned Industry", "Black Market", and "Government". It would be nice to see a change from "Government" to "Public Sector". If I remember correctly, this was the case some years ago on NationStates.

Also (and I'm just spitballing here), perhaps the inclusion of an "Anarchy" policy would be appropriate.
Last edited by Anarchitaria on Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Saranidia
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Postby Saranidia » Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:55 am

I also think that worker owned industry should be a category on the economy pie chart along with government, private industry, state owned industry and black market. They should add charities and religious organisations as categories as well.
Mostly represents my views but what I think a Middle Eastern nation should do which will be sometimes different to what I think a western nation should do(because the people have different needs in different places)

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Scottish Socialists
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Postby Scottish Socialists » Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:56 am

Love this idea.
Love it!
Gives us a bit more control over our economies.
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Saranidia
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Postby Saranidia » Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:58 am

Scottish Socialists wrote:Love this idea.
Love it!
Gives us a bit more control over our economies.

I agree.

I also think that there should be a policy called heresy laws(the current theocracy policy) and another called theocracy about whether religious laws control the state(but are not interpreted to ban other faiths)
Mostly represents my views but what I think a Middle Eastern nation should do which will be sometimes different to what I think a western nation should do(because the people have different needs in different places)

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Copy this into your sig if you know sex and gender are different and did not fail biology.

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Scottish Socialists
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Postby Scottish Socialists » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:02 am

Saranidia wrote:
Scottish Socialists wrote:Love this idea.
Love it!
Gives us a bit more control over our economies.

I agree.

I also think that there should be a policy called heresy laws(the current theocracy policy) and another called theocracy about whether religious laws control the state(but are not interpreted to ban other faiths)

Something like this?

Image
Theocracy
The law is controlled by religion.
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Saranidia
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Postby Saranidia » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:03 am

Scottish Socialists wrote:
Saranidia wrote:I agree.

I also think that there should be a policy called heresy laws(the current theocracy policy) and another called theocracy about whether religious laws control the state(but are not interpreted to ban other faiths)

Something like this?

Image
Theocracy
The law is controlled by religion.

yes thank you. I will make a new thread about that perhaps.
Mostly represents my views but what I think a Middle Eastern nation should do which will be sometimes different to what I think a western nation should do(because the people have different needs in different places)

Vote Lisa Nandy

Copy this into your sig if you know sex and gender are different and did not fail biology.

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Krusavich
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Postby Krusavich » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:56 am

As someone who's waiting for the right issue to seize the production means, I'd always like more policy nuance.

However, I get the impression (with a few exceptions) that policies are supposed to be super broad, just so they don't need a new policy for every unique take. Maybe just change the current policy's description to something more broad?
Last edited by Krusavich on Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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The Confederate Territory
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Postby The Confederate Territory » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:59 am

I agree with you and would support such a change
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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:33 pm

Wouldn't it be easier to change the socialism description to better reflect the types of economies that are covered under it?
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Postby Odinburgh » Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:00 pm

Like splitting into communism, democratic socialism and maybe socialism into separate polices?

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East Angria
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Postby East Angria » Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:57 am

Thanks to everyone for weighing in on the issue.
Krusavich wrote:Maybe just change the current policy's description to something more broad?


Aclion wrote:Wouldn't it be easier to change the socialism description to better reflect the types of economies that are covered under it?

Yeah, that would be fine, too.
Odinburgh wrote:Like splitting into communism, democratic socialism and maybe socialism into separate polices?

Nah, any nation that is democratic and socialist is democratic socialist already.
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This nation uses all Nation States stats except where it doesn't make sense. See our Factbook for more information.

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Minoa
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Postby Minoa » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:27 am

From my perspective, may I suggest:

No Private Industry: Industry is owned and run by the government in a centrally planned economy.

I think that is as generic as it can get.
Last edited by Minoa on Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Silver Commonwealth
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Postby Silver Commonwealth » Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:21 am

Minoa wrote:From my perspective, may I suggest:

No Private Industry: Industry is owned and run by the government in a centrally planned economy.

I think that is as generic as it can get.

Yup, that could be one from the variants.
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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:09 am

Minoa wrote:From my perspective, may I suggest:

No Private Industry: Industry is owned and run by the government in a centrally planned economy.

I think that is as generic as it can get.

That's quite good. It also covers those nations that have nationalized industry for reason having nothing to do with socialism.
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Saranidia
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Postby Saranidia » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:53 am

Aclion wrote:
Minoa wrote:From my perspective, may I suggest:

No Private Industry: Industry is owned and run by the government in a centrally planned economy.

I think that is as generic as it can get.

That's quite good. It also covers those nations that have nationalized industry for reason having nothing to do with socialism.

true but then there should be another one which is non-nationalised but not capitalist such as
Worker democracy
Workers own and run their organisations
Mostly represents my views but what I think a Middle Eastern nation should do which will be sometimes different to what I think a western nation should do(because the people have different needs in different places)

Vote Lisa Nandy

Copy this into your sig if you know sex and gender are different and did not fail biology.

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Postby Caracasus » Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:00 pm

I would love to see this however I am very aware how much work that would be.

A change of the desc to: Industry is collectively owned

Might also work.

Also, you lot on this thread who are so knowledgeable about socialism have you considered writing issues? We could do with more socialist issues. Some of us are doing what we can but there is always scope for more.
As an editor I seam to spend an awful lot of thyme going threw issues and checking that they're no oblivious errars. Its a tough job but someone's got too do it!



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Saranidia
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Postby Saranidia » Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:03 pm

Caracasus wrote:I would love to see this however I am very aware how much work that would be.

A change of the desc to: Industry is collectively owned

Might also work.

Also, you lot on this thread who are so knowledgeable about socialism have you considered writing issues? We could do with more socialist issues. Some of us are doing what we can but there is always scope for more.

cool whilst your at it could you do with some issues to with say being occupied in the name of regime change and called an exporter of terrorism as well as doing that to other nations.
a lot of the issues seem to apply mostly to western nations. we could do with more issues to do with anti-colonialism and such.
Mostly represents my views but what I think a Middle Eastern nation should do which will be sometimes different to what I think a western nation should do(because the people have different needs in different places)

Vote Lisa Nandy

Copy this into your sig if you know sex and gender are different and did not fail biology.

RIP grandpa kitchen

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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:17 pm

Caracasus wrote:I would love to see this however I am very aware how much work that would be.

A change of the desc to: Industry is collectively owned

Might also work.

It might be useful to have an editor give his insight into what the socialism policy actually describes. I had always understood it to mean "industry is completely nationalised".

Caracasus wrote:Also, you lot on this thread who are so knowledgeable about socialism have you considered writing issues? We could do with more socialist issues. Some of us are doing what we can but there is always scope for more.

At least it's possible to make a nation socialist by just taking socialist options. We libertarians have to subsidize half our industry just just to have a high enough economic freedom stat to be called capitalist. *sob sob* :P
Last edited by Aclion on Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
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East Angria
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Postby East Angria » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:38 am

Minoa wrote:
No Private Industry: Industry is owned and run by the government in a centrally planned economy.

That doesn't improve anything over the present Policy. You can have no private industry at all, and still no government-run economy. I want to make a distinction of an centrally planned economy directed from up above, versus a democratically-run economy managed by the workers themselves.

Caracasus wrote:I would love to see this however I am very aware how much work that would be.

Thank you for weighing in on this. Why would it be so much work to just delete one old policy and introduce two new ones? Okay, skimming the issues for worker's control/state control might be a bit of a hassle...

Caracasus wrote:A change of the desc to: Industry is collectively owned

Might also work.

Yes, that would be a major improvement. Just vague enough to cover a whole lot of different economic models, but still clear enough to distinguish it from capitalism and social market economies.
Caracasus wrote:Also, you lot on this thread who are so knowledgeable about socialism have you considered writing issues? We could do with more socialist issues. Some of us are doing what we can but there is always scope for more.

I really want to get into writing issues someday soon, but I have no experience with it and don't have any ideas as of now.
the People of East Angria, a.k.a. the Anarchist Commune of Sassony a free territory covering most of the Low Countries, northern and western Germany, and continental Denmark, with a distinct social anarchist, pacifist, and solarpunk vibe.
This nation uses all Nation States stats except where it doesn't make sense. See our Factbook for more information.

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Voluntarists
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Postby Voluntarists » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:28 pm

I 100% agree.

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The Free Joy State
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Postby The Free Joy State » Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:46 am

East Angria wrote:
Caracasus wrote:I would love to see this however I am very aware how much work that would be.

Thank you for weighing in on this. Why would it be so much work to just delete one old policy and introduce two new ones? Okay, skimming the issues for worker's control/state control might be a bit of a hassle...

There are literally hundreds of issues, out of over 1000, that would need to be recategorised and recoded.

It's a nice idea, but even one small new policy (with just a handful of impacted issues) takes an awful lot of work. I think there are better uses of our manpower.

Caracasus wrote:Also, you lot on this thread who are so knowledgeable about socialism have you considered writing issues? We could do with more socialist issues. Some of us are doing what we can but there is always scope for more.

I really want to get into writing issues someday soon, but I have no experience with it and don't have any ideas as of now.

We always welcome new writers in the Got Issues? subforum, which is populated by a lot of experienced issue writers and editors.

Here's the FAQ and guide to writing issues (which is a good place to start), this thread has a list of all the current issues (so you can see if an idea has been done), and The Writer's Block is a great place to discuss ideas before you start working on them.

For ideas, here is a list of gaps in the game. Editor Candlewhisper Archive also has this list of spare ideas that you can borrow.
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Merconitonitopia » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:16 am

Anarchitaria wrote:May it also be noted that the "Economy" pie chart would need an update as well. There are currently four components of the pie chart: "Private Industry", "State-Owned Industry", "Black Market", and "Government". It would be nice to see a change from "Government" to "Public Sector". If I remember correctly, this was the case some years ago on NationStates.

This is necessary in order to discriminate between government expenditure and state-owned industry (which both fall under the category of the public sector), which is an important and substantive distinction which was not captured under the old model.


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