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[violet]
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Postby [violet] » Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:54 pm

Time for an update! Here's how it's currently looking.

We'll be introducing this in two phases. First come Embassies. Founders and Delegates with access to Regional Control can issue invitations to other regions to establish embassies in each other's region, can accept or decline such invitations from other regions, and can cancel existing embassies.

When regions have embassies, this is noted on their main region page, under the WFE. The establishment and cancellation of embassies with other regions is noted in Regional History (the permanent log you reach by clicking "History..." under Regional Happenings).

Embassies provide no hard gameplay benefit; they don't increase any stats or provide additional powers. Possibly in the future we'd look at recognizing significant regional alliances, as indicated by embassies. But at first, at least, they would have no effect other than as described above. It's expected that they would mostly just formalize what many regions already do on their WFE, and, perhaps, encourage other regions to consider regional alliances.

Embassies can be canceled at any time by the Founder or (empowered) Delegate of either region.

Still experimenting with this part: possibly there will be a time delay on the establishment and cancellation of embassies. That is, rather than this happening the instant that both parties agree, it starts a timer, and 72 hours (or whatever) later, if nobody changed their mind, that's when it takes effect. This would allow regional residents to replace their Delegate if they disagreed strongly enough with the proposed embassy (or cancellation thereof).

So to Annex. The reason we're doing Embassies first is that Annex would use the same mechanism. It would require an authorized nation from each side to make it happen, and almost certainly operate on a timer, with residents able to see that an annexation is looming. If not stopped, it would be recorded in the region's History (permanently) and, while current, on the region's front page.

Neither embassies nor annexations have an associated Influence cost.

As with embassies, annexes would provide no hard gameplay benefits or extra powers. We might look at that in the future, although right now I don't see it as necessary.

Once annexed, a region is referred in-game as a "territory" of the annexing region.

Still unsure whether we'll do "chains" of annexes, where Region A can annex Region B which in turn can annex Region C, or, if instead in that situation we'd consider both B and C to be territories of A. Chains allow for tantalizing strategic possibilities, but are harder to code.

Regions can only be annexed by one other region at any given time.

Still experimenting: possibly the population of territories will be counted toward the annexing region. This would happen in two places: firstly, on the annexing region's front page, its population would be listed as something like: "Testregionia contains 8 nations and has 12 nations in territories (total: 20)." Secondly, the Region List would include population in territories. If, for example, 10000 Islands (1,340 nations) annexed Galactic Republic (1,150 nations), then 1000 Islands would be listed as having 2,490 nations, and ranked accordingly. (Galactic Republic would be listed normally.)

This is the next major feature in the pipline, so if nothing explodes, we should have it within the next month or two.

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Mahaj WA Seat
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Postby Mahaj WA Seat » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:05 pm

wow! can't wait!
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Ginet
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Postby Ginet » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:22 pm

YaY! Looking forward to this!

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Earth22
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Postby Earth22 » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:23 pm

All of that sounds fine and good, though the population counting worries me a bit in regard to feeders. I think if you could annex everything besides for Feeders + Laz/TRR it'd be fantastic, though. I think with feeders it would throw the game into a bit of too much of a whirl.

Also, I'd like to suggest that you can only Annex regions with 10+ regions in it. What's to stop one from having one main region and making lots and lots of puppet regions to annex to it? Plus, I think adding a 10+ limit would make it more reasonable and more important.

I absolutely adore the Embassies bit, though and can't wait to see these changes implemented! :)

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Oliver the Mediocre
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Postby Oliver the Mediocre » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:27 pm

Earth22 wrote:All of that sounds fine and good, though the population counting worries me a bit in regard to feeders. I think if you could annex everything besides for Feeders + Laz/TRR it'd be fantastic, though. I think with feeders it would throw the game into a bit of too much of a whirl.

Also, I'd like to suggest that you can only Annex regions with 10+ regions in it. What's to stop one from having one main region and making lots and lots of puppet regions to annex to it? Plus, I think adding a 10+ limit would make it more reasonable and more important.

I absolutely adore the Embassies bit, though and can't wait to see these changes implemented! :)


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Sedgistan
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Postby Sedgistan » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:33 pm

Earth22 wrote:All of that sounds fine and good, though the population counting worries me a bit in regard to feeders. I think if you could annex everything besides for Feeders + Laz/TRR it'd be fantastic, though. I think with feeders it would throw the game into a bit of too much of a whirl.

There's such a thing as "too much of a whirl"? I think it'd be good to give an added incentive for taking over the feeders...

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The Murtunian Tribes
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Postby The Murtunian Tribes » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:34 pm

Sedgistan wrote:
Earth22 wrote:All of that sounds fine and good, though the population counting worries me a bit in regard to feeders. I think if you could annex everything besides for Feeders + Laz/TRR it'd be fantastic, though. I think with feeders it would throw the game into a bit of too much of a whirl.

There's such a thing as "too much of a whirl"? I think it'd be good to give an added incentive for taking over the feeders...


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Earth22
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Postby Earth22 » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:41 pm

The Murtunian Tribes wrote:
Sedgistan wrote:There's such a thing as "too much of a whirl"? I think it'd be good to give an added incentive for taking over the feeders...


No guts no glory...


Meh, I guess I'd enjoy keeping the Feeders as the free for all that they are now more then having one region flat out claim them. I think it'd be a prejudice for new nations that joined and an unfair advantage for already large and powerful regions against smaller ones. IE: I think in the end it'd get us to such a polarized point where new little regions wouldn't be able to attract as many newbies--something that's already difficult. It just seems rather unfair overall.

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Mahaj WA Seat
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Postby Mahaj WA Seat » Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:01 pm

Earth22 wrote:
The Murtunian Tribes wrote:
No guts no glory...


Meh, I guess I'd enjoy keeping the Feeders as the free for all that they are now more then having one region flat out claim them. I think it'd be a prejudice for new nations that joined and an unfair advantage for already large and powerful regions against smaller ones. IE: I think in the end it'd get us to such a polarized point where new little regions wouldn't be able to attract as many newbies--something that's already difficult. It just seems rather unfair overall.

unless you coup the delegacy and have a certain region annex that feeder.
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Daynor
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Postby Daynor » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:56 pm

You say embassies provide no hard gameplay benefit. However, if feeders only have two or three embassies those nations are going to get viewed by many more new nations...

I wonder if you considered a cap on the number of embassies one is allowed to have? I've seen many regions with dozens of embassies on their forums, if that builds up on a nation page it could get annoying to look at on region after region.

Also, if a region is refounded would that cancel all existing embassies it has?

EDIT: That was all a response to [Violet], just didn't see the need to quote mega-post. :lol:
Last edited by Daynor on Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mousebumples
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Postby Mousebumples » Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:44 pm

[violet] wrote:Regions can only be annexed by one other region at any given time.

Just to clarify: A given region can have multiple regions that it has annexed, right?

i.e. Testregiona has annexed both Annex1 and Annex2. However, both Annex1 and Annex2 have ONLY been annexed by one region.
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[violet]
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Postby [violet] » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:19 pm

Daynor wrote:You say embassies provide no hard gameplay benefit. However, if feeders only have two or three embassies those nations are going to get viewed by many more new nations...

Oh, sure, there will be political and indirect benefits. By "hard" benefits I mean things like how once you set a regional password, other nations can't enter your region, i.e. coded, physical things.

I wonder if you considered a cap on the number of embassies one is allowed to have? I've seen many regions with dozens of embassies on their forums, if that builds up on a nation page it could get annoying to look at on region after region.

We'll just have something like: "Testregionia has embassies with the West Pacific, Middle Earth, and four others." Except listing more than two regions.

Also, if a region is refounded would that cancel all existing embassies it has?

Yes.

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[violet]
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Postby [violet] » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:19 pm

Mousebumples wrote:
[violet] wrote:Regions can only be annexed by one other region at any given time.

Just to clarify: A given region can have multiple regions that it has annexed, right?

i.e. Testregiona has annexed both Annex1 and Annex2. However, both Annex1 and Annex2 have ONLY been annexed by one region.

Right.

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Kalibarr
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Postby Kalibarr » Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:07 pm

what if you made an annex uhh... loop? chain? not sure what to call it...

but what if this happened:

Region A annexes Region B, Region B annexes Region C, and Region C annexes Region A

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Daynor
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Postby Daynor » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:31 pm

Kalibarr wrote:Region A annexes Region B, Region B annexes Region C, and Region C annexes Region A

:shock: Deep shit man...

Anyway, Vi said, "Still unsure whether we'll do "chains" of annexes, where Region A can annex Region B which in turn can annex Region C, or, if instead in that situation we'd consider both B and C to be territories of A. Chains allow for tantalizing strategic possibilities, but are harder to code." I think as far as gameplay benefits goes it would work better in the latter situation.

When Macedon moved from Macedon to Macedonia they would have had to form a chain to keep Macedonia as the main region. Ex: Macedonia -> Macedon -> Colonies. In that situation it would have worked better if when Macedonia annexed Macedon all the colonies of Macedon switch to Macedonia.

Theoretically that would also make it possible for vigilante groups to break up empires by taking over the home region long enough to cancel all annexations. Realistically, most raiders are allowed to hide behind founders and are totally immune from non-native oppression.

---------------------

Also, a new thought, this could really be used to make the warzones more attractive. When annexing a warzone it would be cool if instead of adding the population of the warzone to the home region for rankings, it added 100 + the population of the warzone. This would give bigger bonuses for holding a warzone than for almost every other founderless region.
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[violet]
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Postby [violet] » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:36 pm

Daynor wrote:When Macedon moved from Macedon to Macedonia they would have had to form a chain to keep Macedonia as the main region. Ex: Macedonia -> Macedon -> Colonies. In that situation it would have worked better if when Macedonia annexed Macedon all the colonies of Macedon switch to Macedonia.

Better for whom? I was wondering whether it's more interesting if longer chains get more vulnerable.

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Evil Wolf
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Postby Evil Wolf » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:38 pm

Kalibarr wrote:but what if this happened:

Region A annexes Region B, Region B annexes Region C, and Region C annexes Region A


Same thing that happens when you divide by zero using a Large Hadron Collider. Your brain can't even begin to fathom the result.
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Daynor
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Postby Daynor » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:54 pm

[violet] wrote:
Daynor wrote:When Macedon moved from Macedon to Macedonia they would have had to form a chain to keep Macedonia as the main region. Ex: Macedonia -> Macedon -> Colonies. In that situation it would have worked better if when Macedonia annexed Macedon all the colonies of Macedon switch to Macedonia.

Better for whom? I was wondering whether it's more interesting if longer chains get more vulnerable.

That isn't more vulnerable though... Raiders take great care to ensure that their own regions never actually end up founderless.

I'd assume it will be extremely rare that a region that annexes another region ever goes founderless. Unless a great deal more annexations happen due to diplomacy rather than raiding than I am imagining.
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Ballotonia
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Postby Ballotonia » Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:42 pm

Earth22 wrote:Also, I'd like to suggest that you can only Annex regions with 10+ regions in it. What's to stop one from having one main region and making lots and lots of puppet regions to annex to it? Plus, I think adding a 10+ limit would make it more reasonable and more important.


Why the limit? I already started preparing for exactly that kind of setup back when the feature was announced...

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The Rich Port
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Postby The Rich Port » Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:50 pm

I'm wondering what this would look like...

Do you, like, click a button somewhere, which then sends a form/message that requires the current delegate/founder to agree/decline the offer?
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JURISDICTIONS
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Postby JURISDICTIONS » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:14 am

Violet! Great Work! I myself cannot wait.... or I could... anyway...

Question to Violet: Once a region has been annexed, how is the processed reversed like a "de-annexed" button or something?
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Inkarzikan
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Postby Inkarzikan » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:17 am

This idea seems nice.
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Dysian
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Postby Dysian » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:09 pm

[violet] wrote: If not stopped, it (annex) would be recorded in the region's History (permanently) and, while current, on the region's front page.

I would like to whine suggest something (I assume suggestions on this matter will be considered by the admins). As one that has followed this idea since it's beginnings, I know one of the main purposes of Annex is to stop -or at least significantly diminish - region crashing.

Also, as a former region crasher ('former' only because of Liberations) I suggest that even past annexations are made more visible. One way, is to put them somewhere more visible - ideally on the front page of the annexed region, where the current annexation is, or (less ideally) a special section of the History reserved for regions that have annexed said region in the past (not to interfere with other regional History happenings). Another way, is that imperialist regions get a list on their front page and/or history, showing their current and past annexations.

Because, I believe if someone deems his conquests are not made visible enough, (s)he might resort to crashing conquered regions after all - so region crashings might continue.

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Halcones
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Postby Halcones » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:23 pm

I support Dysian's point. It would be important that a list of annexed regions is shown on the region page.

Could the founder of the annexing region be able to access regional controls of the annexed regions? This may be important in making the annexing more meaningful. How much influence would it cost to annex, and how much to remove it?

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Dysian
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Ex-Nation

Postby Dysian » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:42 pm

[violet] wrote:Neither embassies nor annexations have an associated Influence cost.

And I like it, given the difficulties with the validation time. Btw thanks Halc.
Last edited by Dysian on Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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