I need help?

[Fexia]

I need help? I have been trying to upload a flag for my nation from illustrator. The thing is it is too large. How do i reduce the size to meat NS requirements? Can you help me?

[Hassett]

You could try saving it as a .jpeg, but you'll lose quality. Or you could use windows picture manager or similar software and either reduce the size or condense it.

[North Mack]

I find a lot of the better image editors can export flags with specific settings to save size, such as limited color palates (you'd be amazed how small you can make a large-dimensioned image when you use less then 16 colors) or other tricks like that. As a general rule, png is better quality, gif / jpeg is better sized, and making your flag smaller dimension-wise without changing the filetype means a smaller file too.

EDIT: if you're trying to upload a larger version of the flag you have now then you could export it with 24-bit color with practically no loss, as you're only using 3 colors in the whole flag.

[Pythagosaurus]

As a general rule, png is better quality, bmp / jpeg is better sized, ...

Uh, no. As a general rule, png has better compression for images with a smallish number of colors, and jpeg has better compression (although with some loss) for images with a large number of colors (e.g. photographs and some fancy gradients). bmp is not related to jpeg, cannot be used on the web, and has no compression whatsoever.

[North Mack]

Uh, no. As a general rule, png has better compression for images with a smallish number of colors, and jpeg has better compression (although with some loss) for images with a large number of colors (e.g. photographs and some fancy gradients).

Really? I must just be using some shit editor then, because every time I make my flag (with it's grand total of 3 colors) it ends up as a HUGE file (on the order of 600kb or so), whereas I can easily compress it to 5 or 6kb by converting it to a jpg with a limited palate... maybe it's time to change my image program....

bmp is not related to jpeg, cannot be used on the web, and has no compression whatsoever.

sorry, meant gif. fixing in above post.

[Pythagosaurus]

gif is also not related to jpeg, it's used for the same things as png, and its compression is comparable if not worse.

[Bluth Corporation]

bmp...cannot be used on the web

This part is false.

[Ambassador Ratatoskr]

I wrote an image FAQ on the Yggdrasil forum. Maybe it will help.

Image size refers to the dimensions of the image itself when displayed on your screen. Dimensions are display-dependent. Standard Windoze monitors are 96 dpi (dots per inch) and Mac displays are usually 168 dpi. So when you display "actual size" it depends on what screen you have. Images for the Internet are always saved at 72 dpi. Image size when printed depends on printer math that is different than screen math, so you have to get to know your printer if you're making hard copies.

File size refers to how much space the file takes up on a hard drive in kb or megabytes. Obviously the more data contained in a file, the more rich and clear the image will be and the larger it can be displayed without degrading and looking funky. The NS flag limitation of file size of < 10kb tends to yield either small and nice or large and funky.

Image resolution refers to dpi (dots per inch). When you enlarge a 72 dpi image, it comes out blurry with jagged edges. The rule of thumb is that whatever you start with should be as big in image size, file size, and resolution as manageable. It's easy to make large images to look nice when you compress them. It's nearly impossible to take tiny low resolution images and make them look nice.

Some examples I tweaked. You can create a fairly massive image for a flag for your nation if it lacks color detail and you can tolerate a bit of blurry. A monster JPEG can be found on Ghost Ensign. JPEG is my preference for nation flags because I can get more color and detail compressed into it without losing too much image size. JPEG uses an advanced compression algorithim that can be tweaked in tiny increments.

I tend to use PNGs for region flags and offsite forum images because the color and details tend to be richer. The 10 kb nation flag limit sometimes precludes PNGs because I have to shrink the image size too much. PNG uses a 7 path interlacing algorithim that allows for very rich colors, but you can't reduce the file size much, so you're stuck reducing the image size to limbo it under 10 kb. I have found JPEG is at least five times more effective at compression with negligible loss in noticeable detail.

I only use GIFs for animated flags because I find the compression costs a lot in image detail and can't be fine grain adjusted as easily as a JPEG. Not that animated GIFs aren't fun. See The Metalhead Kittys and Trout Mask Replica for a couple examples. Each movement you see is a separate GIF, like an old fashioned film with frames. GIF compression works by eliminating colors (256 colors is the maximum palette), so its algorithim tends to make images look blurry and washed out.

Pro Tip: Every time you re-save a compressed file, it losses more data, so don't. Your original should be an uncompressed format like BMP, TIFF, or PSD. Export it to JPEG, GIF, or PNG to make your flag, but save the original uncompressed file. If you CTE, the mean old NS server dumps your precious flag.

Question: a founder contacted me recently about uploading an animated GIF as a region flag and it didn't work. Did he do it wrong, is that a rule, or is that a bug? Thanks.

I always start with a larger image, then export it to the < 10 kb version for uploading. The devil's in the details of trading off image size, color, and clarity to squeak in under the nation file size limit. Also note that no matter what operating system you use, there are TWO file size numbers. One is "size on disk" which includes data that doesn't get uploaded when you change your flag and "image size" which is always smaller. I have successfully uploaded many a flag that says it is 12kb on disk when the image itself is 9.8 kb.

Happy flag making.

[Rolamec]

I need help? I have been trying to upload a flag for my nation from illustrator. The thing is it is too large. How do i reduce the size to meat NS requirements? Can you help me?

Here's a cookie.

*Gives you cookie*

[Bluth Corporation]

For those who are curious, here's a very very very general explanation of how GIF/PNG and JPEG work.

GIF/PNG work by looking for large contiguous areas of the same color; and then it replaces that area with, essentially, a little note saying to "repeat this color X times over this area" rather than literally encoding the pixel values. Essentially, it's the difference between:

APKJLJWOLKQQNLKJDLKGJPQJNLKJLJKLWENLRJKLEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASDJFNPNKJEWRPERJPE

and

APKJLJWOLKQQNLKJDLKGJPQJNLKJLJKLWENLRJKLE(Insert 64 "A"s here)SDJFNPNKJEWRPERJPE

(the specific methods by which this is done, as well as the format in which information is stored, are what make the difference between GIF and PNG)

JPEG works by taking advantage of how the eye processes images to blend contiguous pixels of a similar but not equivalent colors into a single block of a single color--the compression level dictates how large these blocks are and how much the colors are blended.

[Bluth Corporation]

Images for the Internet are always saved at 72 dpi.

Images themselves aren't saved at "any" dpi value.

DPI simply refers to the number of individual pixels in a linear inch on the output device. Images are simply X pixels by Y pixels.

Also note that no matter what operating system you use, there are TWO file size numbers. One is "size on disk" which includes data that doesn't get uploaded when you change your flag

Not really, no. Modern drives and filesystems don't assign individual bytes to files--doing so is horribly space-inefficient, in terms of the amount of storage space that must be devoted to storing filesystem structure metadata vs. storing actual data itself. Instead, the drive is divided up into clusters of bytes, and so the filesystem only has to index individual clusters--which, since they represent (usually) several thousand bytes, can be indexed and tracked with much less data, so instead of having 1024 separate indices for 1024 bytes, I only need one index for a single 1024-byte cluster. A given file is allocated a certain number of clusters, and new clusters are only allocated for that file (or deallocated) if the file grows or shrinks past a cluster boundary. The "size on disk" is the total number of bytes in all the clusters allocated to the file.

[Ambassador Ratatoskr]

You are correct than one CAN use any dpi resolution on a web image. The reason I said "always 72 dpi" is that is considered that standard for optimizing web images for efficient hyper terminal transfer protocol. When it's a 10 kb nation flag, increased image resolution is shooting yourself in the foot.

Also note that no matter what operating system you use, there are TWO file size numbers. One is "size on disk" which includes data that doesn't get uploaded when you change your flag

Not really, no. Modern drives and filesystems don't assign individual bytes to files--doing so is horribly space-inefficient, in terms of the amount of storage space that must be devoted to storing filesystem structure metadata vs. storing actual data itself. Instead, the drive is divided up into clusters of bytes, and so the filesystem only has to index individual clusters--which, since they represent (usually) several thousand bytes, can be indexed and tracked with much less data, so instead of having 1024 separate indices for 1024 bytes, I only need one index for a single 1024-byte cluster. A given file is allocated a certain number of clusters, and new clusters are only allocated for that file (or deallocated) if the file grows or shrinks past a cluster boundary. The "size on disk" is the total number of bytes in all the clusters allocated to the file.

I think we're agreeing here. "Size on disk" is what it's called in OSX, which is a flavor of Linux. But the same principle you describe applies to nearly every OS. The number associated allocated clusters is nearly always a larger number than the actual data contained in an image when assembled for upload. It's a file system artifact.

Now I haz cookie. Thanks!

[Bluth Corporation]

Also note that no matter what operating system you use, there are TWO file size numbers. One is "size on disk" which includes data that doesn't get uploaded when you change your flag

Not really, no. Modern drives and filesystems don't assign individual bytes to files--doing so is horribly space-inefficient, in terms of the amount of storage space that must be devoted to storing filesystem structure metadata vs. storing actual data itself. Instead, the drive is divided up into clusters of bytes, and so the filesystem only has to index individual clusters--which, since they represent (usually) several thousand bytes, can be indexed and tracked with much less data, so instead of having 1024 separate indices for 1024 bytes, I only need one index for a single 1024-byte cluster. A given file is allocated a certain number of clusters, and new clusters are only allocated for that file (or deallocated) if the file grows or shrinks past a cluster boundary. The "size on disk" is the total number of bytes in all the clusters allocated to the file.

I think we're agreeing here. "Size on disk" is what it's called in OSX, which is a flavor of Linux.

No, OSX is a derivative of the open-source BSDs, and then only indirectly.

But the same principle you describe applies to nearly every OS. The number associated allocated clusters is nearly always a larger number than the actual data contained in an image when assembled for upload.

Not "nearly" always...just, always.

[Ambassador Ratatoskr]

LOL. I like a guy who likes to get it right. Quoth the wikipedia:
"Mac OS X, whose "X" represents the Roman numeral for "10" and is a prominent part of its brand identity, is a Unix-based graphical operating system."

I appreciate your clarifications.


But we're now kinda off topic to images, so I'm gonna go eat my cookie.

[Bears Armed]

The NS flag limitation of file size of < 10kb

Wasn't this limit increased to '>12kb'?

[Mayor For Life]

It is 12 kb now, Mister Bear. Oskr obviously hasn't changed his own flag in a year.

[Fexia]

Can i find some one to make a flag for me?

[The Tofu Islands]

Can i find some one to make a flag for me?

There's a sticky in the Gameplay forum for it, however it may take a bit of time.