Suggestion:Changes to Feeders

[Clean Land]

As some have pointed out elsewhere, there is a problem that recruitment from the spawning regions is low.

These are the reasons:

1.The spawning regions have an active community you can join, roleplay, gameplay, it's all there.
2.The spawning regions are the biggest regions in NS, and the biggest regions attract outsiders
3.The spawning regions have all diverse concepts, meaning that people come to them even if they were not originally spawned there.
4.Moving fatigue. Why move when you already got a nice place?
5.Telegram bombardement.
6.Stability and Reliability. The feeders are incredibly stable. They have become so stable that the risk of joining a new region is probably greater(when the founder ceases to exist you gonna have problems).
7.Power. They are already powerful(influential), more people join which means that they get even more powerful. Rinse and repeat.
8.Suppression and Message Board Overflow
Recruitment via the Regional Message Board is not effective if there are 100 messages per hour(TNP), and being surpressed doesn't help.

If you read this and think "This looks like an advantage you cannot overcome" then you are probably right.
And such advantages are the cases where tech should step in to keep the game in a healthy state.
The Feeders are supposed to have some disadvantages for their special ability to spawn regions.
These disadvantages are, however, being extremely mitigated by their size.
I have two suggestions that people in the feeders will probably not like so much.
And one suggestion I have discarded because it had too many disadvantages.

Canned submission: Make every region a potential feeder

Canned- You don't want to spawn nations in politically extreme or inactive regions.

(This suggestion was edited in)
1.

Welcome Telegram Removal

The Regional Welcome Telegram is removed from Feeders.
The automated Welcome Telegram to all new nations is updated with info about regions.

2.

GCR day

On a set date every year the following effects happen on all Feeders(or all GCR's) simultaneously:
At the small update on even years, or the big update on odd years,
All endorsements are removed.
The World Factbook Entry is blanked.
Regional dispatches are un-pinned.
The regional telegram is removed.
The delegate is removed from office.
The Regional Officers are removed from office.
(Influence acts normally)

For the duration of 12 hours no one will control the GCRs. This will probably create chaos. And it will make Feeders less stable. It would be the perfect time for a coup or a revolution.
It is however extremely unlikely that one force could control all GCR's because they would need to establish control on all of them simultaneously.
It is also an incentive to leave GCR's; because they are no longer able to be as stable as they are now.
3.

Communications restriction

Feeders will no longer be able to send a regional telegram.
Feeders will not be able to apply for a regional API key.

This suggestion tackles recruitment in the feeders. It is short but very powerful- if you restrict internal recruitment the other messages will come through.

I'd start with 1, probably, and if that isn't enough to tackle the problem then it would have to be 3, and if that does not help enough either it needs to be something more extreme - like 2.

[Vulturret]

There is no way in hell the admins will ever go for this. Nice work on the proposal though.

[Clean Land]

There is no way in hell the admins will ever go for this. Nice work on the proposal though.

Oh really? Not even proposal 2? Because that is neither difficult to code nor difficult to understand.

[Pencil Sharpeners 2]

Suggestion 1 is just insanity; how is it good for large, active regions that welcome newcomers to be thrown into anarchy?

Suggestion 2 just causes problems for communication. News about elections / festivals etc. that may encourage new players to get more involved and more likely to stay on NS would stop.

I understand that Feeders have an unfair advantage over UCRs, but making the game worse for hundreds of people isn't the right answer.

[Clean Land]

Suggestion 1 is just insanity; how is it good for large, active regions that welcome newcomers to be thrown into anarchy?

Suggestion 2 just causes problems for communication. News about elections / festivals etc. that may encourage new players to get more involved and more likely to stay on NS would stop.

I understand that Feeders have an unfair advantage over UCRs, but making the game worse for hundreds of people isn't the right answer.

There is something that definitely gives the feeders an unfair recruitment advantage and the admins could try to remove that from the feeders first and look if that helps:
The regional welcome telegram. The telegram you recieve upon entering a region.
It
-is not bound by any rate limits
-is always distributed as one of the first telegrams
-costs nothing.

[Darcania]

There's a difference between nerfing the feeders in some way and absolutely crippling all internal communication... if someone wants to stay in the feeders then why not let them?

[Annihitor the Incred]

Quite a pertinent subject, this.

We have all forgotten what feeders were all about - being feeders, not the default largest regions.

The solution to this is rather simple - make the feeders storage-only regions, with no internal activity sans the RMB. Guarantee all other regions embassies and telegram rights for recruitment. From there, people will be free to choose actual communities to join, at their discretion.

[Clean Land]

There's a difference between nerfing the feeders in some way and absolutely crippling all internal communication... if someone wants to stay in the feeders then why not let them?

What would you think about the regional welcome telegram(the telegram every nation gets upon entering a region) being removed for feeders? It does not cripple all internal communication. That could be a first step - and who knows, maybe everything that is necessary.

[Guslantis]

Quite a pertinent subject, this.

We have all forgotten what feeders were all about - being feeders, not the default largest regions.

The solution to this is rather simple - make the feeders storage-only regions, with no internal activity sans the RMB. Guarantee all other regions embassies and telegram rights for recruitment. From there, people will be free to choose actual communities to join, at their discretion.

I’ve been in an actual community for a majority of my nearly eight years in NationStates. I’ve adjusted to life in a GCR, and I could not see being anywhere else in NationStates. I do agree that there’s an advantage, but I’d rather make a small adjustment than what you or Clean Land are proposing, which is uprooting the largest regions in the game. Trust me, you don’t want to anger some of the older players in TNP, they can get pretty grumpy.

[Pencil Sharpeners 2]

Suggestion 1 is just insanity; how is it good for large, active regions that welcome newcomers to be thrown into anarchy?

Suggestion 2 just causes problems for communication. News about elections / festivals etc. that may encourage new players to get more involved and more likely to stay on NS would stop.

I understand that Feeders have an unfair advantage over UCRs, but making the game worse for hundreds of people isn't the right answer.

There is something that definitely gives the feeders an unfair recruitment advantage and the admins could try to remove that from the feeders first and look if that helps:
The regional welcome telegram. The telegram you recieve upon entering a region.
It
-is not bound by any rate limits
-is always distributed as one of the first telegrams
-costs nothing.

This might not be a bad idea, so long as more information is included in the NationStates Welcome Committee TG, rather than just stuff about issues. (i.e. "You've spawned in a Feeder region, which is where all new nations spawn. You will receive many Telegrams from other regions who want you to join them, but you should just ignore them and be loyal to your Feeder.")

Quite a pertinent subject, this.

We have all forgotten what feeders were all about - being feeders, not the default largest regions.

The solution to this is rather simple - make the feeders storage-only regions, with no internal activity sans the RMB. Guarantee all other regions embassies and telegram rights for recruitment. From there, people will be free to choose actual communities to join, at their discretion.

Feeder regions aren't supposed to be the default largest, but neither are any other regions. If Feeders are doing a good job with keeping new nations involved with and interested in the game, why shouldn't we have lots of nations?

[Annihitor the Incred]

Quite a pertinent subject, this.

We have all forgotten what feeders were all about - being feeders, not the default largest regions.

The solution to this is rather simple - make the feeders storage-only regions, with no internal activity sans the RMB. Guarantee all other regions embassies and telegram rights for recruitment. From there, people will be free to choose actual communities to join, at their discretion.

I’ve been in an actual community for a majority of my nearly eight years in NationStates. I’ve adjusted to life in a GCR, and I could not see being anywhere else in NationStates. I do agree that there’s an advantage, but I’d rather make a small adjustment than what you or Clean Land are proposing, which is uprooting the largest regions in the game. Trust me, you don’t want to anger some of the older players in TNP, they can get pretty grumpy.

Distribution of numbers is beneficial and egalitarian. Allowing established elites to scoot around in stability will be the slow death of engagement by new players.

What do they say in French, creative destruction? Imagine the beauty and the diaspora.

[Galiantus III]

Quite a pertinent subject, this.

We have all forgotten what feeders were all about - being feeders, not the default largest regions.

The solution to this is rather simple - make the feeders storage-only regions, with no internal activity sans the RMB. Guarantee all other regions embassies and telegram rights for recruitment. From there, people will be free to choose actual communities to join, at their discretion.

A while back I made a suggestion similar to this one, but without the implications of destroying GCR communities. Basically, all new nations would spawn in a region like one you described, but existing GCRs would remain otherwise untouched: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=423197

[Annihitor the Incred]

Quite a pertinent subject, this.

We have all forgotten what feeders were all about - being feeders, not the default largest regions.

The solution to this is rather simple - make the feeders storage-only regions, with no internal activity sans the RMB. Guarantee all other regions embassies and telegram rights for recruitment. From there, people will be free to choose actual communities to join, at their discretion.

A while back I made a suggestion similar to this one, but without the implications of destroying GCR communities. Basically, all new nations would spawn in a region like one you described, but existing GCRs would remain otherwise untouched: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=423197

Hmm, that might be even better. It is indeed time to make the Pacifics just another bunch of regions.

Of course, it will meet with full opposition from the GCRs and whatever staff they control. Nobody likes to give up their advantage.

[Lenlyvit]

A while back I made a suggestion similar to this one, but without the implications of destroying GCR communities. Basically, all new nations would spawn in a region like one you described, but existing GCRs would remain otherwise untouched: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=423197

Hmm, that might be even better. It is indeed time to make the Pacifics just another bunch of regions.

Of course, it will meet with full opposition from the GCRs and whatever staff they control. Nobody likes to give up their advantage.

The staff aren't controlled by anyone.

[Galiantus III]

GCR day

On a set date every year the following effects happen on all Feeders(or all GCR's) simultaneously:
At the small update on even years, or the big update on odd years,
All endorsements are removed.
The World Factbook Entry is blanked.
Regional dispatches are un-pinned.
The regional telegram is removed.
The delegate is removed from office.
The Regional Officers are removed from office.
(Influence acts normally)

For the duration of 12 hours no one will control the GCRs. This will probably create chaos. And it will make Feeders less stable. It would be the perfect time for a coup or a revolution.
It is however extremely unlikely that one force could control all GCR's because they would need to establish control on all of them simultaneously.
It is also an incentive to leave GCR's; because they are no longer able to be as stable as they are now.

I think all that is pretty extreme. I would suggest something more predictable and direct, like endorsement decay, where after a week or two of not logging in, endorsements given by nations in GCRs are no longer counted. That way the person who only ever touches NationStates one day of their whole life does not give a delegate a month's worth of endorsement before they CTE.

If the goal is to make all the GCRs vulnerable for one day out of the year, one option would be to have a day where the GCRs simply cannot eject WA nations from the region.

[Annihitor the Incred]

Hmm, that might be even better. It is indeed time to make the Pacifics just another bunch of regions.

Of course, it will meet with full opposition from the GCRs and whatever staff they control. Nobody likes to give up their advantage.

The staff aren't controlled by anyone.

Supportive of then, if it sounds better. What matters is the effect.

[Lenlyvit]

The staff aren't controlled by anyone.

Supportive of then, if it sounds better. What matters is the effect.

What matters is that you're trying to accuse admin of bias, which they are not.

[Flanderlion]

Usually if someone's region is doing badly, they don't go to technical to claim blaming anyone but themselves. Instead, they improve their TGs, work on their retention and make their region a better place to go to.

Firstly, for the game, is it better than a new nation goes to a UCR that TGs them or stays in their home region? Of the TGs a nation receives, a good 50% of regions recruiting at any one time will be dead in 6 months because they do not bother to recruit consistently, nor do they bother to keep the players in their region interested.

Admin already has plans for if Feeders grow too big.

The two 'solutions' are just either attempting to destroy communities or ruin retention efforts, both of which admin should be trying to prevent.

The reset won't actually make a significant difference to nations in Feeders, TRR would get a few more nations, and government institutions would put functions on hold for a bit, but overall it wouldn't make a difference. If admin wanted to change the regime in a region there are for more direct ways of doing so.

Crippling API TGs would be terrible for most regions, API TGs are the foundation of TNPs success and other regions attempts to take what works.

I always struggle to see the other side of this, like why is a region providing everything bad? Shouldn't that be what all regions try and do? Obviously you won't succeed at providing everything consistently and no region does, but it's worth trying for the nations that will turn up and otherwise move on (sadly out of the game rather than the region in most cases).

[Galiantus III]

Usually if someone's region is doing badly, they don't go to technical to claim blaming anyone but themselves. Instead, they improve their TGs, work on their retention and make their region a better place to go to.

Firstly, for the game, is it better than a new nation goes to a UCR that TGs them or stays in their home region? Of the TGs a nation receives, a good 50% of regions recruiting at any one time will be dead in 6 months because they do not bother to recruit consistently, nor do they bother to keep the players in their region interested.

Admin already has plans for if Feeders grow too big.

The two 'solutions' are just either attempting to destroy communities or ruin retention efforts, both of which admin should be trying to prevent.

The reset won't actually make a significant difference to nations in Feeders, TRR would get a few more nations, and government institutions would put functions on hold for a bit, but overall it wouldn't make a difference. If admin wanted to change the regime in a region there are for more direct ways of doing so.

Crippling API TGs would be terrible for most regions, API TGs are the foundation of TNPs success and other regions attempts to take what works.

I always struggle to see the other side of this, like why is a region providing everything bad? Shouldn't that be what all regions try and do? Obviously you won't succeed at providing everything consistently and no region does, but it's worth trying for the nations that will turn up and otherwise move on (sadly out of the game rather than the region in most cases).

I think the angst against GCRs is more general, and less specific. No change to the system will help the regions that are already failing to grow. The issue I have with the feeders and sinkers is that, no matter the quality of a UCR, no matter how much work someone puts into building their region, GCRs will always reap much much more than they do for the same effort. That's just how it works when you have free promotion of your region for over a decade.

You are right about the solutions proposed here. They simply are not suited to the problem, and in fact, are likely to make the problem worse.

There is no reason that GCRs should have ever gotten as large as they are now, other than that the game mechanics smile on them and have granted them a limitless supply of eager new-comers for years on end. The top regions should have to earn their place, but the GCRs have done nothing to show they deserve that distinction. If it weren't for the mechanics which sustain the life of these regions, most of the current feeders and sinkers would have been long gone, forgotten ages ago. For all I know, the GCRs will always exist, and they will always be at the top, and there is nothing anyone can ever do to compete with that.

If the largest UCRs could regularly exceed the GCRs in size and power it would be fair to say that a region could make it to the top on their own, by being a good region and working hard. But it is so exceptionally rare that the top UCR can even compete with the GCRs that many of us are of the opinion the real problem is one of the game mechanics favoring one group of regions over all the others, not a lack of quality or effort. That is where everyone who has ever asked and will ever ask the admin to address this problem is coming from.

[Clean Land]

There is something that definitely gives the feeders an unfair recruitment advantage and the admins could try to remove that from the feeders first and look if that helps:
The regional welcome telegram. The telegram you recieve upon entering a region.
It
-is not bound by any rate limits
-is always distributed as one of the first telegrams
-costs nothing.

This might not be a bad idea, so long as more information is included in the NationStates Welcome Committee TG, rather than just stuff about issues. (i.e. "You've spawned in a Feeder region, which is where all new nations spawn. You will receive many Telegrams from other regions who want you to join them, but you should just ignore them and be loyal to your Feeder.")

With a small correction:

"You've spawned in a Feeder region, which is where all new nations spawn. You will receive many Telegrams from other regions who want you to join them, but you should just ignore them and be loyal to your Feeder.you can also stay in the Feeder if you want."

Now this looks like a sensible first try change to feeders(that does not damage any internal feeder communication):

Update the Welcome Committee Telegram like that one above.
Remove the Regional Welcome Telegram from Feeders.

If that isn't enough we can always come back for more changes.

[Spam Spam Spam]

Welcome telegrams from feeders provide the new player with valuable information about how the game works, honestly better than the nation creation telegram, so removing feeder welcome telegrams would just leave new nations feeling lost with no idea what to do.

[Galiantus III]

Welcome telegrams from feeders provide the new player with valuable information about how the game works, honestly better than the nation creation telegram, so removing feeder welcome telegrams would just leave new nations feeling lost with no idea what to do.

I don't think people are suggesting they should be removed, just delayed slightly. As it stands, the GCRs have a game-breaking advantage in terms of recruitment because of how welcome telegrams work.

[Spam Spam Spam]

I don't think people are suggesting they should be removed

Remove the Regional Welcome Telegram from Feeders.

[Galiantus III]

I don't think people are suggesting they should be removed

Remove the Regional Welcome Telegram from Feeders.

Ah. I stand corrected. Anyways, I don't think they should be removed, just limited/delayed so they're more on equal grounds with recruiters, because that is essentially what the GCRs use welcome telegrams for.

[Spam Spam Spam]

Ah. I stand corrected. Anyways, I don't think they should be removed, just limited/delayed so they're more on equal grounds with recruiters, because that is essentially what the GCRs use welcome telegrams for.

It wouldn't be fair to apply the changes you suggest to only the GCR's then, apply them to all regions.