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Varying population growth

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Spiritbw
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Varying population growth

Postby Spiritbw » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:37 am

As it is right now the population of a country increases the longer the country exists. Thing is, some nations it’s increadably dangerous to live in with high mortality rates, toxic environments and other factors that really should be putting a dent in population numbers. Some also have anti immigration policies which mean no new people are entering the country.

Has it ever been considered to maybe have the population affected by the policies a country has?

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Galiantus III
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Postby Galiantus III » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:55 am

Yes, this has been considered many times, and Admin are adamant that it won't change.

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:04 am

Spiritbw wrote:As it is right now the population of a country increases the longer the country exists. Thing is, some nations it’s increadably dangerous to live in with high mortality rates, toxic environments and other factors that really should be putting a dent in population numbers. Some also have anti immigration policies which mean no new people are entering the country.

Has it ever been considered to maybe have the population affected by the policies a country has?

The problem with that idea is that there would be an incentive to have the policies that speed up population growth, and it would quickly become common knowledge regarding which combination of policies is the best for population growth. It would lead to homogenization of nations into the type of nation that has the perfect combination of policies that maximize population growth. Unequal population growth based on policies etc would, somewhat counter-intuitively, actually lead to less diversity of nations in Nationstates, not more.
Last edited by The New California Republic on Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Leutria
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Postby Leutria » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:12 am

Plus they are worried about revolt. One April Fools they 'reset' everyone's populations, and people were so unhappy about it the admin basically said they wouldn't touch population again.

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Enfaru
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Postby Enfaru » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:21 pm

Leutria wrote:Plus they are worried about revolt. One April Fools they 'reset' everyone's populations, and people were so unhappy about it the admin basically said they wouldn't touch population again.


To be fair...I was really happy. ._. I was shocked when I found out it was April Fools.
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United Peoples of the Chiefdom of Ibiri
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Postby United Peoples of the Chiefdom of Ibiri » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:12 pm

My population doesn't really make a whole lot of sense for an island nation. I wish there was a way to cap it, or have the unlocks be based on land percentages rather than pure numbers.

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:17 pm

United Peoples of the Chiefdom of Ibiri wrote: I wish there was a way to cap it, or have the unlocks be based on land percentages rather than pure numbers.

But there are no "land percentages" in the game, it would need to be added, but that would entail a pretty major overhaul of game mechanics.
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Bears Armed
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Postby Bears Armed » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:18 am

United Peoples of the Chiefdom of Ibiri wrote:My population doesn't really make a whole lot of sense for an island nation. I wish there was a way to cap it, or have the unlocks be based on land percentages rather than pure numbers.

Just play as if it was much less than the game says, and put the value that you prefer in your factbooks and/or sig....
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Nazi Flower Power
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Postby Nazi Flower Power » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:32 pm

United Peoples of the Chiefdom of Ibiri wrote:My population doesn't really make a whole lot of sense for an island nation. I wish there was a way to cap it, or have the unlocks be based on land percentages rather than pure numbers.


I have that problem in a big way. Just don't use NS stats for population. I figure Nazi Flower Power has maybe 50 or 100 million people, never decided on an exact number, but definitely not the billions that NS thinks it has.

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Merconitonitopia
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Postby Merconitonitopia » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:16 pm

Population has already been all but officially designated as a means to determine a nation's lifespan. It is a legacy ranking to prove how long you have been active on the site.

Changing the way population works is subverting this role, so it will never happen.
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Tessen
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Postby Tessen » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:51 am

So, here's an idea.... (just for the sake of discussion)....

What if the game's existing Population stat was renamed to something like.... "Nation Age". The current, constantly growing stat, presently known as "Population", would remain unchanged -- it would just have a different name. It would continue to be the legacy number that it has always been. And it would continue to be displayed (as "Nation Age") so that other NS players could see how old any nation is within the game.

Then.... add a percentage option that a player can manipulate (a toggle if you will, much like the "issues per day" toggle behind the scenes). This percentage toggle would apply a superficial chosen "population modifier" to the NS population stat (renamed Nation Age). This modified result would then be listed (alongside the original nation age of a nation) in the new wikipedia-like boxes on our nation pages, any other population reference on nation detail pages, and would become that nation's new player-chosen public "Population" statistic

On the most basic of levels, the only thing that would need to change is the current "Population" stat being renamed "Nation Age" in-game. Nation Age continues to grow as it always has, and players can control the publicly displayed number that lists their national population. This keeps the current game infrastructure, while allowing players to have a little more control over the listed stats that publicly define their nations.

And I imagine these would be remarkably simple adjustments to make -- since they are both superficial.

Problem solved (while retaining "the way things have always been done"). :eyebrow:
Last edited by Tessen on Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Athretvari
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Postby Athretvari » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:42 pm

Tessen wrote:So, here's an idea.... (just for the sake of discussion)....

What if the game's existing Population stat was renamed to something like.... "Nation Age". The current, constantly growing stat, presently known as "Population", would remain unchanged -- it would just have a different name. It would continue to be the legacy number that it has always been. And it would continue to be displayed (as "Nation Age") so that other NS players could see how old any nation is within the game.

Then.... add a percentage option that a player can manipulate (a toggle if you will, much like the "issues per day" toggle behind the scenes). This percentage toggle would apply a superficial chosen "population modifier" to the NS population stat (renamed Nation Age). This modified result would then be listed (alongside the original nation age of a nation) in the new wikipedia-like boxes on our nation pages, any other population reference on nation detail pages, and would become that nation's new player-chosen public "Population" statistic

On the most basic of levels, the only thing that would need to change is the current "Population" stat being renamed "Nation Age" in-game. Nation Age continues to grow as it always has, and players can control the publicly displayed number that lists their national population. This keeps the current game infrastructure, while allowing players to have a little more control over the listed stats that publicly define their nations.

And I imagine these would be remarkably simple adjustments to make -- since they are both superficial.

Problem solved (while retaining "the way things have always been done"). :eyebrow:


Simple, clean, and everyone’s happy. Do it!

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Frisbeeteria
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Postby Frisbeeteria » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:27 pm

Athretvari wrote:everyone’s happy

I suspect you'd be surprised at how many incredibly UNhappy people you'd see posting here if that change was made. We've had this discussion before. The overwhelming majority of responses have been "leave it alone".

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Athretvari
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Postby Athretvari » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:39 pm

Frisbeeteria wrote:
Athretvari wrote:everyone’s happy

I suspect you'd be surprised at how many incredibly UNhappy people you'd see posting here if that change was made. We've had this discussion before. The overwhelming majority of responses have been "leave it alone".


But this seems to be ignoring what they have issue with. Take the whole answering issues for the purposes of ‘racing’ to higher population. Isnt that the same arguement against any and all issues? I know which ones affect SciAd and I answer them. Then there’s the whole ‘nation age’ argument, except population doesnt measure nation age, it measures the amount of time a nation is active (not CTED). If a nation CTEs, and then is refounded, the population index shows that as a break in population rate increase. There is already a Founded shard, so that info is there for anyone interested in knowing true founding date. Then of course there’s ALL yhose players and regions that require/impose population restrictions on their RPs, this would assist in making our nations match our RP characteristics better.
Last edited by Athretvari on Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Leutria
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Postby Leutria » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:54 pm

Athretvari wrote:
Frisbeeteria wrote:I suspect you'd be surprised at how many incredibly UNhappy people you'd see posting here if that change was made. We've had this discussion before. The overwhelming majority of responses have been "leave it alone".


Then there’s the whole ‘nation age’ argument, except population doesnt measure nation age, it measures the amount of time a nation is active (not CTED). If a nation CTEs, and then is refounded, the population index shows that as a break in population rate increase.

Exactly, population size shows how long a nation has been active, rather then how old it is.

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Tessen
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Postby Tessen » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:06 pm

Frisbeeteria wrote:
Athretvari wrote:everyone’s happy

I suspect you'd be surprised at how many incredibly UNhappy people you'd see posting here if that change was made. We've had this discussion before. The overwhelming majority of responses have been "leave it alone".

Perhaps I'm missing something here. I know this topic has been discussed at length (I read the forums just like anyone else), however, merely by the fact that so many users keep requesting a change, it suggests that your "overwhelming majority" isn't as overwhelming as you claim. Maybe it's time that SOMETHING be addressed in regards to the population issue.

My idea seems like a simple, direct, middle-of-the-road idea.

To be completely honest, I really don't see what would make your "many" people so "incredibly UNhappy" with this idea. All I did was offer a fair and reasonable alternative, completely in line with the traditions of Nationstates. It changes nothing about the stats or how nations are calculated -- nothing at all -- it merely gives a new name to the current population stat, and allows players to toggle their own superficial publicly displayed nation population.

Tradition is still upheld, this idea lets players have a little control over a harmless superficial stat on their nation pages, and it puts to rest the "we need a change in population" requests that keep popping up on a monthly basis. Win-win for everyone.

Perhaps Violet can weigh in on this.... A Violet response to this idea would be insightful. 8)
Last edited by Tessen on Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Mallorea and Riva
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Postby Mallorea and Riva » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:08 pm

Tessen wrote:
Frisbeeteria wrote:I suspect you'd be surprised at how many incredibly UNhappy people you'd see posting here if that change was made. We've had this discussion before. The overwhelming majority of responses have been "leave it alone".

Perhaps I'm missing something here. I know this topic has been discussed at length (I read the forums just like anyone else), however, merely by the fact that so many users keep requesting a change, it suggests that your "overwhelming majority" isn't as overwhelming as you claim. Maybe it's time that SOMETHING be addressed in regards to the population issue.

My idea seems like a simple, direct, middle-of-the-road idea.

To be completely honest, I really don't see what would make your "many" people so "incredibly UNhappy" with this idea. All I did was offer a fair and reasonable alternative, completely in line with the traditions of Nationstates. It changes nothing about the stats or how nations are calculated -- nothing at all -- it merely gives a new name to the current population stat, and allows players to toggle their own superficial publicly displayed nation population.

Tradition is still upheld, this idea lets players have a little control over a harmless superficial stat on their nation pages, and it puts to rest the "we need a change in population" requests that keep popping up on a monthly basis. Win-win for everyone.

Perhaps Violet can weigh in on this.... A Violet response to this idea would be insightful. 8)

The Tradition is that we call it Population and don't screw around with it. It's been the one constant from the beginning, that's why people don't like to see it change. The older players take pride in their populations, the nation creation date in RL terms is just a cold OOC date. The population is something more tangible to the nation itself. [v] might choose to post here, she might not. If it's a harmless, superficial stat on the nation page... why are we discussing changing this? We don't let people set their other stats, you work for it with issues.
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Athretvari
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Postby Athretvari » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:46 pm

Mallorea and Riva wrote:The Tradition is that we call it Population and don't screw around with it. It's been the one constant from the beginning, that's why people don't like to see it change. The older players take pride in their populations, the nation creation date in RL terms is just a cold OOC date. The population is something more tangible to the nation itself. [v] might choose to post here, she might not. If it's a harmless, superficial stat on the nation page... why are we discussing changing this? We don't let people set their other stats, you work for it with issues.


We’re discussing it because it’s a weird “stat”. It says “population” but it —

  1. Keeps growing no matter what happens to your nation. Even issues that supposedly address population dont affect it.
  2. It doesnt measure population. It measures ‘time active’.

The option being discusssed is to allow setting a percent (hopefully limited to 100%) that will still allow big old nations to boast their ridiculously large populations, while alllowing everyone else that would like to to set a smaller population.

We’re just interested in improving the game, geesh.

PS., I think we can set our nation types even though there are plenty of issues addressing how our nations are governed, such as imposing a monarchy. Should we strip that option out so people are forced to accept a nation classification based solely on issues?
Last edited by Athretvari on Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Flanderlion
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Postby Flanderlion » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:06 pm

I'm with keeping status quo population wise. Higher death rate also means you've got a higher birth rate, your populations birth and death rate automatically balance. You've got factbooks/sigs for that.

For the high death rate, I wouldn't be opposed to having a death per 1000 and births per 1000 stat. Issues could make either birth rate or death rate increase or decrease. If the birth rate increased, then death rate stat would automatically increase so that the natural increase per 1000 remained at approx 5-7 million (so small nations would have a big natural increase number and big nations would have a tiny one).
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USS Monitor
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Postby USS Monitor » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:55 pm

What you suggested is not clean, nor is it simple. It's a clunky suggestion that would pointlessly clutter up nation pages.
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Tessen
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Postby Tessen » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:04 am

USS Monitor wrote:What you suggested is not clean, nor is it simple. It's a clunky suggestion that would pointlessly clutter up nation pages.

So, a 100%-scale toggle for superficial public display of one game stat, is more challenging to code than the issues per day toggle that defines the mechanics of how many game issues every player can choose to receive? That sounds a little fishy to me, but alright.

Hey, I just offered an idea, guys. I'm not trying to step on any fingers here. I understand the traditions of NationStates (perhaps moreso than most of you, in fact, given that my nation age is older than everyone in here, except for Frisbeeteria). If the game can be changing in so many other, far more complicated ways, surely simple ideas and considerations (such as mine, or others like it) can be discussed without hostility and pointed responses.

If my suggestion is, indeed, a terrible idea, than I'll respectfully suggest it no further. I'm just trying to help.
Last edited by Tessen on Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:14 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Ardrentt
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Postby Ardrentt » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:25 am

Tessen wrote:So, here's an idea.... (just for the sake of discussion)....

What if the game's existing Population stat was renamed to something like.... "Nation Age". The current, constantly growing stat, presently known as "Population", would remain unchanged -- it would just have a different name. It would continue to be the legacy number that it has always been. And it would continue to be displayed (as "Nation Age") so that other NS players could see how old any nation is within the game.

Then.... add a percentage option that a player can manipulate (a toggle if you will, much like the "issues per day" toggle behind the scenes). This percentage toggle would apply a superficial chosen "population modifier" to the NS population stat (renamed Nation Age). This modified result would then be listed (alongside the original nation age of a nation) in the new wikipedia-like boxes on our nation pages, any other population reference on nation detail pages, and would become that nation's new player-chosen public "Population" statistic

On the most basic of levels, the only thing that would need to change is the current "Population" stat being renamed "Nation Age" in-game. Nation Age continues to grow as it always has, and players can control the publicly displayed number that lists their national population. This keeps the current game infrastructure, while allowing players to have a little more control over the listed stats that publicly define their nations.

And I imagine these would be remarkably simple adjustments to make -- since they are both superficial.

Problem solved (while retaining "the way things have always been done"). :eyebrow:

I think the multiplyer idea does the trick just fine, really, if you want to have it be done this way. The renaming is a bit unnecessary, especially since it could cause more confusion by implying that the person who roleplays as a multiplanetary empire is much older than the person roleplaying as a city state. (In itself, leaving it as the population statistic does no good either, though a marker could be placed to indicate whether the population is altered or not)

Regardless of that, a lot of the use of population number is for RPing, which is usually done in the forums, so it might be a moot point either way since you could specify the RPing population in your signature anyways. The results of issues tends to be facetious, as does the nation's WA category description, so anyone more seriously roleplaying their nation would be quite hesitant to use it as their main factbook.

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:34 am

Tessen wrote:I understand the traditions of NationStates (perhaps moreso than most of you, in fact, given that my nation age is older than everyone in here).

Careful, I have been around since 2004 as well, so you can't dismiss my opinion so easily. This nation is my "new" main. The population idea that you suggest is already redundant, as many players already RP a completely different population number anyway, using Factbooks and the like to show what they perceive their population to be. For RP purposes, most players take the indicated population on the nation page with a pinch of salt, and more often than not will refer to Factbooks to find out what stats to use for population size when engaging with that player. There is already a well-oiled system in place in the form of the Factbooks for RP purposes, so I still don't see your idea of dissociating population from nation age as being useful, and is more likely to break things and piss off players than the chance of benefits from fixing the problem.

Tessen wrote:If the game can be changing in so many other, far more complicated ways, surely simple ideas and considerations (such as mine, or others like it) can be discussed without hostility and pointed responses.

But that hostility is very telling. If the ideas are getting such hostility from just a few forum users, then how will the ideas be taken by the user base at large? It really doesn't bode well.
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Athretvari
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Postby Athretvari » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:46 am

USS Monitor wrote:What you suggested is not clean, nor is it simple. It's a clunky suggestion that would pointlessly clutter up nation pages.


This is a setting that changes what is currently shown on the home page. If showing a smaller population ‘clutters’ up the home page, so does showing the regular population. Can we please read (carefully), think, and then post?

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:56 am

Athretvari wrote:
USS Monitor wrote:What you suggested is not clean, nor is it simple. It's a clunky suggestion that would pointlessly clutter up nation pages.


This is a setting that changes what is currently shown on the home page. If showing a smaller population ‘clutters’ up the home page, so does showing the regular population. Can we please read (carefully), think, and then post?

Just as an aside, being snippy with the mods isn't a good way of bringing them around to your perspective...
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Current President of The NCR: Aaron Kimball.
Current NCR Ambassador to The World Assembly: Colonel James Hsu, NCR Army (Ret.)
.

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