NATION

PASSWORD

Beta 007: Corruption and campaign finance law

Bug reports, general help, ideas for improvements, and questions about how things are meant to work.
User avatar
[violet]
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14558
Founded: Antiquity

Beta 007: Corruption and campaign finance law

Postby [violet] » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:58 pm

Beta 007: Campaign Finance Law decreases Corruption & increases Integrity

Proposed Change: Normally, less political freedom is associated with greater government corruption. This beta reverses that effect for legislation that specifically restricts the influence of money in government. It also includes Renormalization (beta 013), which monotonically increases all nations' scores that lie between 1.2 and 40.0.

User avatar
Consular
Minister
 
Posts: 3026
Founded: Apr 10, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Consular » Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:13 pm

I somehow thought that would have a greater impact on me, because I think I banned donations to parties. Perhaps I reversed that and forgot though.

User avatar
Phydios
Minister
 
Posts: 2307
Founded: Dec 06, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Phydios » Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:15 pm

[violet] wrote:Beta 007: Campaign Finance Law decreases Corruption & increases Integrity

Proposed Change: Normally, less political freedom is associated with greater government corruption. This beta reverses that effect for legislation that specifically restricts the influence of money in government. It also includes Renormalization (beta 013), which monotonically increases all nations' scores that lie between 1.2 and 40.0.

I thought the game recognized the freedom to be corrupt as a political freedom. Are you changing direction on that matter?
Romans 1:18-2:29, Ephesians 2:1-10
But God’s angry displeasure erupts as acts of human mistrust and wrongdoing and lying accumulate, as people try to put a shroud over truth. But the basic reality of God is plain enough. Open your eyes and there it is! | Those people are on a dark spiral downward. But if you think that leaves you on the high ground where you can point your finger at others, think again. Every time you criticize someone, you condemn yourself. | It’s a wonder God didn’t lose His temper and do away with the whole lot of us. Instead, immense in mercy and with an incredible love, He embraced us. He took our sin-dead lives and made us alive in Christ. He did all this on His own, with no help from us!

User avatar
[violet]
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14558
Founded: Antiquity

Postby [violet] » Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:50 pm

Consular wrote:I somehow thought that would have a greater impact on me, because I think I banned donations to parties. Perhaps I reversed that and forgot though.

You are firmly moderate on campaign finance law at the moment, so there's no great effect one way or the other.

Phydios wrote:I thought the game recognized the freedom to be corrupt as a political freedom.

No, that's not the case. Corruption can result from freedoms (or the lack thereof), but is not itself a freedom.

User avatar
Iron Fist Grizzlies
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 11
Founded: Jan 02, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Iron Fist Grizzlies » Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:38 pm

Does this mean it possible to run a low political freedom nation with low corruption (aka a clean dictatorship). Is this something that is possible already? I assume it is since this is a game that allows for planned economies with good economic values (even if it is difficult)

User avatar
[violet]
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14558
Founded: Antiquity

Postby [violet] » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:08 pm

Yep, they have more work to do, but there's nothing stopping a nation with low Political Freedom from also having low Corruption.

The easiest way would probably be to relentlessly fight corruption for a while, then suddenly abolish elections. If you start as a dictatorship, I think it's more challenging.
Last edited by [violet] on Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Trotterdam
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8753
Founded: Jan 12, 2012
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Trotterdam » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:21 pm

Interestingly, Milostein sees a small change (for the better), even though it isn't democratic and doesn't have any campaigns to finance. However, Trotterdam, also undemocratic, doesn't.

[violet] wrote:Yep, they have more work to do, but there's nothing stopping a nation with low Political Freedom from also having low Corruption.

The easiest way would probably be to relentlessly fight corruption for a while, then suddenly abolish elections. If you start as a dictatorship, I think it's more challenging.
I've been a dictatorship since day zero, and my Integrity is pretty impressive.




EDIT: Integrity seems to be rather high in general. I did a random sample test, and it displayed only two nations with an Integrity below 90 (one of which gets refactored above 90 by this change). Perhaps a monotonic rescaling is called for?

On the Corruption table, I'm seeing a lot of nations that receive a pretty big change (20 or more), but on closer inspection all of these seem to be in the 1.2-40.0 range that's getting renormalized, so those probably aren't from the campaign finance change.
Last edited by Trotterdam on Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Phydios
Minister
 
Posts: 2307
Founded: Dec 06, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Phydios » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:53 pm

[violet] wrote:
Phydios wrote:I thought the game recognized the freedom to be corrupt as a political freedom.

No, that's not the case. Corruption can result from freedoms (or the lack thereof), but is not itself a freedom.

Interesting. The second spoiler in the OP of the Unusual Issue Effects megathread says this:

"The right to influence politics with bribes / lobbying / money is a political freedom. That is, the freedom to be corrupt is in fact a political freedom. Political freedom isn't just a positive."

Is this wrong?
Romans 1:18-2:29, Ephesians 2:1-10
But God’s angry displeasure erupts as acts of human mistrust and wrongdoing and lying accumulate, as people try to put a shroud over truth. But the basic reality of God is plain enough. Open your eyes and there it is! | Those people are on a dark spiral downward. But if you think that leaves you on the high ground where you can point your finger at others, think again. Every time you criticize someone, you condemn yourself. | It’s a wonder God didn’t lose His temper and do away with the whole lot of us. Instead, immense in mercy and with an incredible love, He embraced us. He took our sin-dead lives and made us alive in Christ. He did all this on His own, with no help from us!

User avatar
[violet]
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14558
Founded: Antiquity

Postby [violet] » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:37 pm

Trotterdam wrote:Interestingly, Milostein sees a small change (for the better), even though it isn't democratic and doesn't have any campaigns to finance. However, Trotterdam, also undemocratic, doesn't.

Yes, I did have a poke around at making it a more substantial change in nations where elections are more free, which makes intuitive sense. But the way it works in practice means this is balanced out already, so I've left it as a simpler model.

Trotterdam wrote:Integrity seems to be rather high in general. I did a random sample test, and it displayed only two nations with an Integrity below 90 (one of which gets refactored above 90 by this change). Perhaps a monotonic rescaling is called for?

There is indeed a dearth of nations between about 15 and 90, which doesn't look right. This ranking doesn't use the same scaling algorithm as the one being Renormalized by beta 013 (it's a 0-100 scale, not a 0-infinity scale), but I plan on checking it out.

Trotterdam wrote:all of these seem to be in the 1.2-40.0 range that's getting renormalized, so those probably aren't from the campaign finance change.

Right.

Phydios wrote:"The right to influence politics with bribes / lobbying / money is a political freedom. That is, the freedom to be corrupt is in fact a political freedom. Political freedom isn't just a positive."

It's explaining that freedom (of money in politics, in particular) and corruption can be positively correlated. There isn't an actual "freedom to be corrupt" metric.

User avatar
Minoa
Senator
 
Posts: 4649
Founded: Oct 05, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Minoa » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:40 am

It seems that my corruption score goes up (https://www.nationstates.net/page=beta? ... tion=minoa) but I am not sure exactly if this is to do with the re normalisation in Beta 13, or the methodology change.
Last edited by Minoa on Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mme A. d'Oiseau, B.A. (State of Minoa)

User avatar
Excidium Planetis
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7571
Founded: May 01, 2014
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Excidium Planetis » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:52 am

My "Most Corrupt Governments" score goes up, but so does my "Least Corrupt Governments" score. Is that normal?
Ex-Ambassador (deceased): Evander Blackbourne
Ex-Ambassador: Cornelia Schultz, author of GA#355 and GA#368.
#MakeLegislationFunnyAgain
Singaporean Transhumans wrote:You didn't know about Excidium? The greatest space nomads in the NS multiverse with a healthy dose (read: over 9000 percent) of realism?
Saveyou Island wrote:"Warmest welcomes to the Assembly, ambassador. You'll soon learn to hate everyone here."
Imperium Anglorum wrote:Digital Network Defence is pretty meh
Tier 8, 7.5 nation, according to my index.Made of nomadic fleets.


News: None. Good, right?

User avatar
Trotterdam
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8753
Founded: Jan 12, 2012
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Trotterdam » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:51 pm

Excidium Planetis wrote:My "Most Corrupt Governments" score goes up, but so does my "Least Corrupt Governments" score. Is that normal?
I suspect that the actual effect of the change is to make your nation less corrupt (Integrity goes up, Corruption goes down), but the renormalization then makes your Corruption score appear higher again... although your old value, 1.1 (and by extension your new-value-without-renormalization, if I'm right), is in fact just below the 1.2-40.0 range that's supposed to be affected.

User avatar
Merconitonitopia
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1606
Founded: Jul 29, 2013
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Merconitonitopia » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:47 pm

Trotterdam wrote:I've been a dictatorship since day zero, and my Integrity is pretty impressive.

presumably because your political freedoms would be relatively high even for a democracy, certainly no less an autocracy. you allow much liberty unto the populace in the political sphere -- except the liberty to tell you your time in power is up.
likewise my nation is a democracy, although only in name, as the party retained a tight strangehold on the gov't after the transition.
Land and Kingdom of Merconites
Merconitonikalytonitopia

And whatsoever mine eyes desired I kept not from them, I withheld not my heart from any joy; for my heart rejoiced in all my labour: and this was my portion of all my labour. Then I looked on all the works that my hands had wrought, and on the labour that I had laboured to do: and, behold, all was vanity and vexation of spirit, and there was no profit under the sun.

User avatar
Candlewhisper Archive
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 21624
Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Anarchy

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:23 am

[violet] wrote:It's explaining that freedom (of money in politics, in particular) and corruption can be positively correlated. There isn't an actual "freedom to be corrupt" metric.


I've removed the offending sentence, for clarity/accuracy.
editors like linguistic ambiguity more than most people

User avatar
Bluelight-R006
Senator
 
Posts: 4314
Founded: Mar 31, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Bluelight-R006 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:21 am

I’m late but I just want to reopen this with my opinion:

In my opinion, it is true that nations with lesser political freedom would have the more corrupted government. However, some nations don’t deserve the change as they’re a Benevolent Dictatorship. Maybe just exclude those nations out? Would be better for me too cuz everyone thinks I’m corrupted when I’m much the opposite.
The Quintessential, Powerful Realm of Bluelight
A ridiculously overpowered benevolent dictatorship realm, dominant underground, on land, in the air and space with magical quasar-exhaling dragons defending the land and space. Takes up almost all existence known, ‘perfect,’ awe-inspiring and its leader handsome, intelligent, has caring qualities with god-like powers.
NE’ER E’ER USE OUR NSstats! REAL STATS
Rated 0, Class A, 10/10 and 0.066.
Heralding Forth the Proclamation of Tribulation t’wards deniers of Bluelight’s almightiness: The Lightian Spirit makes memes of the eradication of an incoming wave of a FFT empire centimetres off the border, whom the Lightine Forces decided to troll into thinking they were winning

User avatar
Far Eries
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Nov 24, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Far Eries » Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:46 am

With that change, the corruption level in my nation will rise to +762% . Ouch.
Last edited by Far Eries on Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:58 am, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Tyronian Socialist State
Attaché
 
Posts: 99
Founded: Jan 02, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tyronian Socialist State » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:53 am

will there be any sort of re-balancing of previous issues, by that I mean, in ye olde days when there was no 'state owned' industry any issue to do with the economy, employment, or industry (provided private industry was banned) would drastically raise your corruption figure when you chose an option to do with increasing any of those 3. I understand that this was a long time ago and what not, but I was just wondering if there would be any consideration for nations that were around at that time.
I do Take NS Stats / Funding in to account as well as Fact book data so... just don't threaten me with Nukes that you don't have and an army that is yet to exist.
What Really Happens when you dismiss and issue

User avatar
Nerdayn
Secretary
 
Posts: 29
Founded: Sep 03, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Nerdayn » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:24 am

Bluelight-R006 wrote:I’m late but I just want to reopen this with my opinion:

In my opinion, it is true that nations with lesser political freedom would have the more corrupted government. However, some nations don’t deserve the change as they’re a Benevolent Dictatorship. Maybe just exclude those nations out? Would be better for me too cuz everyone thinks I’m corrupted when I’m much the opposite.


I got slapped with an 2550% increase in corruption, despite having an 2:1 wealth gap between the rich and poor, low unemployment with high income and strong industry, very low crime rate, lay in the top ten precent in public education, health care and public transport, this list goes on.

But I despite all these achievements for the citizens wellbeing I somehow deserve to be catapulted up to the top 15% most corrupt states in nationstates, and yes most of these things does not directly correlate to corruption but if I have such a widespread problem with it would not a big portion of the money allocated get squandered away?

But this is just my take on it
Last edited by Nerdayn on Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
[violet]
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14558
Founded: Antiquity

Postby [violet] » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:37 pm

Nerdayn wrote:I got slapped with an 2550% increase in corruption, despite having an 2:1 wealth gap between the rich and poor, low unemployment with high income and strong industry, very low crime rate, lay in the top ten precent in public education, health care and public transport, this list goes on.

But I despite all these achievements for the citizens wellbeing I somehow deserve to be catapulted up to the top 15% most corrupt states in nationstates, and yes most of these things does not directly correlate to corruption but if I have such a widespread problem with it would not a big portion of the money allocated get squandered away?

But this is just my take on it

I posted this in your other thread:
[violet] wrote:The jump was 100% caused by the beta, mostly because the new system counts Nerdayn's lack of any restrictions on money in politics as contributing towards corruption. This is one of the few political freedoms that Nerdayn has; the rest of the voting process is tightly controlled, which protects the interests of those in power and generally leads to higher than average corruption.

User avatar
Nerdayn
Secretary
 
Posts: 29
Founded: Sep 03, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Nerdayn » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:51 am

[violet] wrote:I posted this in your other thread:
[violet] wrote:The jump was 100% caused by the beta, mostly because the new system counts Nerdayn's lack of any restrictions on money in politics as contributing towards corruption. This is one of the few political freedoms that Nerdayn has; the rest of the voting process is tightly controlled, which protects the interests of those in power and generally leads to higher than average corruption.


Yah, i was just gonna post about it in this thread

User avatar
He Qixin
Diplomat
 
Posts: 606
Founded: Aug 28, 2017
Ex-Nation

Please (partially) reverse a beta

Postby He Qixin » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:29 pm

I'm sorry, but I'm not satisfied with the beta which reverses the effect of high political freedom on low corruption. I believe political freedom should at least account for 50% of the corruption levels, and the money spent on politics would also account for 50% of corruption levels.
Last edited by He Qixin on Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
jacknjellify wrote:Watch Battle For Dream Island or be eliminated.

According to this index, this civilization is:
Tier: 8
Level: 5
Type: 6
A 9 civilization because I lean more towards it.

This nation is always used to post in the forums unless the forum is the WA, for which I use Triangle and Square, a WA member, to post.

User avatar
Leutria
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1647
Founded: Oct 29, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Leutria » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:39 pm

It's not a beta any more since it has been implemented. Anyway, to go to the text of the beta:

"Normally, less political freedom is associated with greater government corruption. This beta reverses that effect for legislation that specifically restricts the influence of money in government. It also includes Renormalization (beta 013), which monotonically increases all nations' scores that lie between 1.2 and 40.0."

You have to remember, NationStates has stats that the player cannot see. This specifically made it so allowing "the influence of money in government" (so campaign donations, bribes, etc.) increases corruption (or at least does not reduce it?). The way other political freedoms factor in was not changed.

You might have also been affected by this part: "It also includes Renormalization (beta 013), which monotonically increases all nations' scores that lie between 1.2 and 40.0". That change was just to correct a scaling problem, so if you were in that range you would have seen an increase in your corruption score, but the underlying number was not changed. The scaling done before it is shown to you was just fixed/improved.


Now, disclamer, I am not an admin, this is simply my understanding. The thread from when this was still a beta is here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=429174 . Feel free to read the conversation here and double check what I said matches what was said there.

User avatar
He Qixin
Diplomat
 
Posts: 606
Founded: Aug 28, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby He Qixin » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:56 pm

Change this please.
jacknjellify wrote:Watch Battle For Dream Island or be eliminated.

According to this index, this civilization is:
Tier: 8
Level: 5
Type: 6
A 9 civilization because I lean more towards it.

This nation is always used to post in the forums unless the forum is the WA, for which I use Triangle and Square, a WA member, to post.

User avatar
Candlewhisper Archive
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 21624
Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Anarchy

Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:29 am

He Qixin wrote:I'm sorry, but I'm not satisfied with the beta which reverses the effect of high political freedom on low corruption. I believe political freedom should at least account for 50% of the corruption levels, and the money spent on politics would also account for 50% of corruption levels.


You've misunderstood what the fix is, I believe.

Both the old and the new system associate higher political freedom with lower corruption.

This system, however, specifically excludes one particular political freedom, which is the freedom to influence politics with bribes, financial donations and other monetary inducements.

We didn't believe it to be logical that making it easier to bribe people should make a country LESS corrupt. See 229.3 for an example:

"It's really not THAT bad, is it?" asks @@randomname@@, your Minister of Commerce, fiddling with a large gold ring before sliding a thick envelope across on your desk. "Maybe it's all just a prank. Maybe it will all just... go away?"


Before the change, that option would have decreased corruption. Now it increases corruption.
editors like linguistic ambiguity more than most people

User avatar
He Qixin
Diplomat
 
Posts: 606
Founded: Aug 28, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby He Qixin » Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:36 pm

This still sucks, because sometimes I have to SACRIFICE my political freedoms for HIGHER integrity.
jacknjellify wrote:Watch Battle For Dream Island or be eliminated.

According to this index, this civilization is:
Tier: 8
Level: 5
Type: 6
A 9 civilization because I lean more towards it.

This nation is always used to post in the forums unless the forum is the WA, for which I use Triangle and Square, a WA member, to post.

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to Technical

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Dawn Denac, Miss Bad Life Choices, Tinhampton

Advertisement

Remove ads