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Beta 011: Average Disposable Incomes (New)

Bug reports, general help, ideas for improvements, and questions about how things are meant to work.

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Leondaldal
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Postby Leondaldal » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:03 am

Uh yeah your not addressing the real problem, my income tax is 75% but my government is 32% of my GDP. This is very unrealistic for example: my real life natoion that I live in is the UK and our average income tax (band 1=20% band 2=40% and the top rate band 3=45%)is much lower than my NS nations rate and the UK government expenditure is 40% of the UK GDP. It is also the same with most other nations. And yes my country does have other taxes like corporation tax (I know this because of issues I have addressed and my general policies).
Yes of course implement it but only after you have fixed the problem of income tax in my nation being 75% and government expenditure being just 32%.
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Leutria
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Postby Leutria » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:08 am

This change was not intended to alter tax rates at all, this stat just makes use of it.

Also, government % GDP and income tax rates are not at all the same thing. I think the admin/issue editors have talked a bit about a tax overhaul, but that is a large project and is likely a little ways off.

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Leondaldal
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Postby Leondaldal » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:25 pm

Leutria wrote:This change was not intended to alter tax rates at all, this stat just makes use of it.

Also, government % GDP and income tax rates are not at all the same thing. I think the admin/issue editors have talked a bit about a tax overhaul, but that is a large project and is likely a little ways off.

I know but I knows lots of National statistics in the real world and in reality the opposite is true with expenditures being higher average income tax rates!
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Botschaft von
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Postby Botschaft von » Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:34 pm

[violet] wrote:Beta 011: Average Disposable Incomes (New)

Proposed Change: This would be a new World Census scale that measures average incomes after tax. For comparison purposes, pre-tax incomes are shown as "Current." Nations with no income tax show identical pre- and post-tax incomes, while nations with 100% tax rates show 0 income.


Great idea!

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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:38 pm

Leondaldal wrote:
Leutria wrote:This change was not intended to alter tax rates at all, this stat just makes use of it.

Also, government % GDP and income tax rates are not at all the same thing. I think the admin/issue editors have talked a bit about a tax overhaul, but that is a large project and is likely a little ways off.

I know but I knows lots of National statistics in the real world and in reality the opposite is true with expenditures being higher average income tax rates!

That's an issue with the way NS handles taxes, not with this stst.
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He Qixin
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Postby He Qixin » Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:06 pm

NVM, now that my income tax has dropped to a measly 11.9%, I am for this idea now. The nations with 100% or very high income tax are going to be the mad ones!
Last edited by He Qixin on Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Phydios
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Postby Phydios » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:31 pm

He Qixin wrote:NVM, now that my income tax has dropped to a measly 11.9%, I am for this idea now. The nations with 100% or very high income tax are going to be the mad ones!

Why would they be mad? This beta changes nothing. It adds an entirely new statistic without changing any current ones.
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He Qixin
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Postby He Qixin » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:50 pm

Phydios wrote:
He Qixin wrote:NVM, now that my income tax has dropped to a measly 11.9%, I am for this idea now. The nations with 100% or very high income tax are going to be the mad ones!

Why would they be mad? This beta changes nothing. It adds an entirely new statistic without changing any current ones.

oh
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He Qixin
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Postby He Qixin » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:52 pm

But finally, there's a reason for having a low income tax!
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A 9 civilization because I lean more towards it.

This nation is always used to post in the forums unless the forum is the WA, for which I use Triangle and Square, a WA member, to post.

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Merconitonitopia
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Postby Merconitonitopia » Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:06 am

He Qixin wrote:NVM, now that my income tax has dropped to a measly 11.9%, I am for this idea now. The nations with 100% or very high income tax are going to be the mad ones!

I'm 100% and I like the idea of my citizens not being allowed to spend a cent of their earnings >:)
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Araneidae
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Postby Araneidae » Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:26 am

https://www.nationstates.net/nation=ara ... il=economy

Our economy consists mainly of Black Market. Therefore tax isn't really relevant when it comes to disposable income. Should this not be taken into account?

The way I see it, in this nation the citizens get most of their disposable income from resale and bartering. Which are outside of the government control.
Last edited by Araneidae on Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Santa Chiara
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Postby Santa Chiara » Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:52 am

Caracasus wrote:Can't say I am against this... but I wonder if it might not be an idea to examine some of the underlying issues with tax and how it is modeled first?

I fully agree

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He Qixin
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Postby He Qixin » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:04 am

IRL, the country with the highest tax rate is UAE with a whopping 55%, nowhere close to some of your higher ranked nations in NationStates in terms of taxation. But even that can be subjected to government activity and other factors, and drastic changes (usually drops) are possible.

Source: YouTube, NowThis World
Last edited by He Qixin on Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
jacknjellify wrote:Watch Battle For Dream Island or be eliminated.

According to this index, this civilization is:
Tier: 8
Level: 5
Type: 6
A 9 civilization because I lean more towards it.

This nation is always used to post in the forums unless the forum is the WA, for which I use Triangle and Square, a WA member, to post.

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Candlewhisper Archive
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Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:17 am

Araneidae wrote:https://www.nationstates.net/nation=araneidae/detail=economy

Our economy consists mainly of Black Market. Therefore tax isn't really relevant when it comes to disposable income. Should this not be taken into account?

The way I see it, in this nation the citizens get most of their disposable income from resale and bartering. Which are outside of the government control.


Well, you could say that the average income currently mentioned represents legitimate income sources, which are highly regulated by the government and massively taxed. Any incomes or trade made on the black market simply won't register against that number, which explains why it is so flat in distribution.

Sounds like you've got a state which is broadly even in wealth distribution and which allows very little private wealth, and then a secret shadow economy that lies entirely in the (criminal) black market, which allows for illegal personal private wealth which is likely as unevenly distributed as any capitalist market system, and which will neither effect your World Census average income nor your disposable income after tax. It's just unregistered income, which neither the government nor the World Census has the capability to measure.

Or in other words: limited simulation, make up your own story.
Last edited by Candlewhisper Archive on Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Candlewhisper Archive
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Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:24 am

Leondaldal wrote:Uh yeah your not addressing the real problem, my income tax is 75% but my government is 32% of my GDP. This is very unrealistic for example: my real life natoion that I live in is the UK and our average income tax (band 1=20% band 2=40% and the top rate band 3=45%)is much lower than my NS nations rate and the UK government expenditure is 40% of the UK GDP. It is also the same with most other nations. And yes my country does have other taxes like corporation tax (I know this because of issues I have addressed and my general policies).
Yes of course implement it but only after you have fixed the problem of income tax in my nation being 75% and government expenditure being just 32%.


Oh there's plenty of "real problems" in taxation simulation.

Like the absence of deficit spending, the absence of direct simulation of any sort of tax except income tax, and the absence of any effect on your economy or productivity from tax rate. Tax in NS is basically non-consequential, and only has narrative meaning assigned to it, not mechanical meaning. It's an information output, not an input.

These things have been discussed in great depth backstage, and broadly the game remains very limited in its simulation of government income and spending, and paints in very broad strokes. This small change (showing disposable income) was simply one of the easiest changes to implement, so was easiest to make happen.

Broader changes to how the game handles taxation have generally been avoided, partially because it'd more or less involve changing the whole game, and partially because of a word-of-god statement of intent about the purpose of NS, which is not to simulate the minutiae of balancing the books or working economic growth with a sensible tax policy, but rather as a semi-humorous parody simulation of the trials of running a government. You're not meant to have to solve the puzzle to find your way to a working economy, you're meant to make decisions and see what fun things happen to your nation state.

This is me paraphrasing broader conversations by the way, and is probably biased by my recollection of what has been said by various parties.

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LaND oF cReAm pUfFs
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Postby LaND oF cReAm pUfFs » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:23 pm

Drasnia wrote:Finally a reason to have a 0% tax rate. Thanks [v]!

Well all of the communist states are getting screwed by this, but I like it! But I do have a 71% tax rate.

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American MapleStory
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Postby American MapleStory » Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:00 am

When are these changes being implemented? They have been in beta for quite some time.
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He Qixin
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Postby He Qixin » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:29 pm

Suomenusko Suomi wrote:
Raventsvo wrote:ummm
(Image)

I oppose this change

I feel ya.
Image
From top 100, to nothing.

Perhaps introducing a "Highest Pre-Tax Incomes" statistic could help validate the egos of nations like ours who want to have "high incomes" even with high taxes.

41K standard monetary units is enough to last a year, provided your citizens spend about 100 a day.
jacknjellify wrote:Watch Battle For Dream Island or be eliminated.

According to this index, this civilization is:
Tier: 8
Level: 5
Type: 6
A 9 civilization because I lean more towards it.

This nation is always used to post in the forums unless the forum is the WA, for which I use Triangle and Square, a WA member, to post.

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Postby The Glorious Third Reign of Templedom » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:53 pm

I support this change.

While we're at it, I suggest capping income taxes at 50% in line with real world and adding two more indices:
- Budget deficit
- Total national debt (accumulates over time, adapt from population algo to save work)
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