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Beta 011: Average Disposable Incomes (New)

Bug reports, general help, ideas for improvements, and questions about how things are meant to work.

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Shaggtopia
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Postby Shaggtopia » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:59 am

Sweet new stat (possibly)! I'm excited to see how this might interact with the economic output average income and various government expendeture stats. But the Black Market problem mentioned earlier got me thinking, any gaps or perceived discrepancy in math could be explained with barter systems or abuse of exchange rates (as it's not unprecedented for illegal transactions to be made as good for good trades or conducted with foreign currency) although tracking these as stats would be... Difficult....
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Suomenusko Suomi
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Postby Suomenusko Suomi » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:31 am

Raventsvo wrote:ummm
(Image)

I oppose this change

I feel ya.
Image
From top 100, to nothing.

Perhaps introducing a "Highest Pre-Tax Incomes" statistic could help validate the egos of nations like ours who want to have "high incomes" even with high taxes.

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Bluelight-R006
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Postby Bluelight-R006 » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:32 am

I think this should be added as Long as it doesn’t interfere with the normal pre-taxation average income scores on the page and is just another ranking. Problem is that for nations with 100% tax, their citizen’s average income would be 0
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Leutria
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Postby Leutria » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:07 am

Suomenusko Suomi wrote:
Raventsvo wrote:ummm
(Image)

I oppose this change

I feel ya.
Image
From top 100, to nothing.

Perhaps introducing a "Highest Pre-Tax Incomes" statistic could help validate the egos of nations like ours who want to have "high incomes" even with high taxes.

The old stat is not going away, it is just there to show the difference, that number is not actually being changed.

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Merconitonitopia
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Postby Merconitonitopia » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:38 am

Suomenusko Suomi wrote:I feel ya.
([url=https://s8.postimg.org/5xc4otvpd/Highest_Incomes_Change.png]Image)[/url]
From top 100, to nothing.

Perhaps introducing a "Highest Pre-Tax Incomes" statistic could help validate the egos of nations like ours who want to have "high incomes" even with high taxes.

this was addressed 3 posts in
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Slavonia and Srijem
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Postby Slavonia and Srijem » Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:25 am

Raventsvo wrote:ummm
(Image)

I oppose this change

i dont see anything wrong with this, considering your high taxes, you can see this as your currency is in low inflation and you can live with 903 currencies a month, wouldn't that be great?

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Kyratistani
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Postby Kyratistani » Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:01 am

I love the sound of this. It’s a great stat.

However, before this happens, could the taxation system itself be reworked completely? It should be very difficult to have an income tax of above 50% in the first place, and yet simply having lots of government services brings you up to 90%.

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Liberated American Provinces
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Postby Liberated American Provinces » Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:22 am

Suomenusko Suomi wrote:
Raventsvo wrote:ummm
(Image)

I oppose this change

I feel ya.
Image
From top 100, to nothing.

Perhaps introducing a "Highest Pre-Tax Incomes" statistic could help validate the egos of nations like ours who want to have "high incomes" even with high taxes.

They would be keeping the old "Average Income" stat, so that wouldn't be necessary
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Phydios
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Postby Phydios » Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:29 am

Kyratistani wrote:I love the sound of this. It’s a great stat.

However, before this happens, could the taxation system itself be reworked completely? It should be very difficult to have an income tax of above 50% in the first place, and yet simply having lots of government services brings you up to 90%.

Already being discussed. It's much more easily said than done.
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Finswedeway
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Postby Finswedeway » Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:44 am

I support this very much. Would it account for flat tax rates?
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The Dolphin Isles
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Postby The Dolphin Isles » Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:59 am

Finswedeway wrote:I support this very much. Would it account for flat tax rates?


I believe that it would be the same as with progressive tax rates (at least ones that aren't too crazy) since everything is averaged out. NS shows the average tax rate for progressive tax system with half the population living under a lower tax rate and the other half living above it. Thus, the overall average income (Average DIsposable Income) after average tax rate should be the same no matter if a country has a regressive, progressive, or flat tax system.

Now if you made Average Rich/Poor Disposable Incomes, you'd be opening up a whole new can of worms.

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Finswedeway
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Postby Finswedeway » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:03 am

The Dolphin Isles wrote:
Finswedeway wrote:I support this very much. Would it account for flat tax rates?


I believe that it would be the same as with progressive tax rates (at least ones that aren't too crazy) since everything is averaged out. NS shows the average tax rate for progressive tax system with half the population living under a lower tax rate and the other half living above it. Thus, the overall average income (Average DIsposable Income) after average tax rate should be the same no matter if a country has a regressive, progressive, or flat tax system.

Now if you made Average Rich/Poor Disposable Incomes, you'd be opening up a whole new can of worms.

yeah, that sounds like a bad idea on a technical standpoint.
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Danish-Swedish Scandinavia
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Postby Danish-Swedish Scandinavia » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:59 am

I'm against this in it's current form. I believe that if this alternative income was to be introduced, there should also be a ranking of how much is provided by the state, as in what you need. So if you have a 100% tax rate, and you live in a left wing utopia with a great economy, and great stats for public stuff, then there would be a ranking saying that you government provides 100% of things you need, along with a 100% tax rate and 0% income disposability. If the stats of tax and disposable income were to stand as they are, it would not provide the full picture of how that society is put together. There are, of course, the stats on public transport and all, but there should be a single stat showing how much is provided, or at least the quality of life.

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Finswedeway
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Postby Finswedeway » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:03 am

Danish-Swedish Scandinavia wrote:I'm against this in it's current form. I believe that if this alternative income was to be introduced, there should also be a ranking of how much is provided by the state, as in what you need. So if you have a 100% tax rate, and you live in a left wing utopia with a great economy, and great stats for public stuff, then there would be a ranking saying that you government provides 100% of things you need, along with a 100% tax rate and 0% income disposability. If the stats of tax and disposable income were to stand as they are, it would not provide the full picture of how that society is put together. There are, of course, the stats on public transport and all, but there should be a single stat showing how much is provided, or at least the quality of life.

This would imply that a 0% tax rate would imply a 0% quality of life which isn't necessarily true. It also isn't necessarily true to say that 100% tax implies 100% quality of life. Far from it, historically. There would be way too many stats to account for for such a listing.
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Austersan
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Potential Fix to Employment Rate

Postby Austersan » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:12 am

I like the proposed measure for average disposable incomes, but since I don't know where else to put this suggestion I just wanted to put it here.

The employment rate doesn't really make sense for a lot of countries. Employment is clearly correlated with economic strength, yet my country and many other countries have extremely unrealistic levels of unemployment and still maintain incredible economies. This goes for many nations that haven't even really invested in automation or other processes like these that could conceivably reduce employment while raising the economy.

I would suggest linking the economic rating and employment more closely, or just making employment rates more realistic.

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Thama
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Postby Thama » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:28 am

If it's a new category and doesn't override average income, then hell yes, but the way its phrased in the beta page is incredibly vague and awkward.
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Aschenburg
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Postby Aschenburg » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:08 pm

This is a fantatic new stat idea! Its an excellent way to show true incomes when taxes are taken into account! In fact It says I would rank highly so I am ready and onboard!
Last edited by Aschenburg on Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ratateague
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Postby Ratateague » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:53 pm

Not opposed to this, but there may be a few things that would also likely need change as a result. With these nations coming in and complaining that their incomes will be dropping to 0, it's worth considering what this would do to income equality. Although citizens might be generating differing amounts of value, they could effectively be earning the same and benefitting from whatever services their taxes are paying for. So interestingly enough, Income Equality would stay at the same rate until Taxes reach 100%. Unless said changes in tax rate are not flat, but progressive/regressive. This also brings into question the services the taxes are going towards. The stats that cover spending (such as Public Edu/Health/Transit)... do they currently reflect the proportion of taxed income as it goes towards each slice of the expenditure pie? And are they all represented? If not, it will need a retooling to accurately reflect the amount of spending going towards it.
Last edited by Ratateague on Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Tyronian Socialist State
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Postby Tyronian Socialist State » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:10 pm

This new stat is defiantly a good idea! However, It has been said a few times so far, I think that some form progressive Tax system needs to to be used in addition to make this stat be a little more 'Fair' as there may be a 0% tax on income under 10,000 units of currency but a 100% on anything over 100,000.
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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:09 pm

Actually, that's a good point. The game already allows you to have higher taxes for the rich, which means that average disposable income cannot be calculated as simply as average income minus average tax rate.

Simple example: 90% of your citizens earn $1000 and have a 10% tax rate. 10% of your citizens earn $9000 and have a 90% tax rate. Your average income is 90%*$1000+10%*$9000 = $1800. Your average tax rate is 90%*10%+10%*90% = 18%. Your average disposable income, though, is 90%*$900+10%*$900 = $900, which is not the same as $1800*(100%-18%) = $1476.

...It would work if you interpret "average" as the median rather than mean, but it is clear that the current "average income" stats are meant to be means.

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Merconitonitopia
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Postby Merconitonitopia » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:17 pm

Danish-Swedish Scandinavia wrote:I believe that if this alternative income was to be introduced, there should also be a ranking of how much is provided by the state, as in what you need.

11 stats already detail government expenditures. part of the problem mate, we're trying to balance that that bias towards big spenders.
The Dolphin Isles wrote:with half the population living under a lower tax rate and the other half living above it.

not necessarily, its a mean.

@Ratateague, 100% tax does not imply equality. the state does not necessarily distribute services equally. high earning communities would still have better services, low earning communities worse.
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Postby [violet] » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:47 pm

Trotterdam wrote:Actually, that's a good point. The game already allows you to have higher taxes for the rich, which means that average disposable income cannot be calculated as simply as average income minus average tax rate.

Simple example: 90% of your citizens earn $1000 and have a 10% tax rate. 10% of your citizens earn $9000 and have a 90% tax rate. Your average income is 90%*$1000+10%*$9000 = $1800. Your average tax rate is 90%*10%+10%*90% = 18%. Your average disposable income, though, is 90%*$900+10%*$900 = $900, which is not the same as $1800*(100%-18%) = $1476.

...It would work if you interpret "average" as the median rather than mean, but it is clear that the current "average income" stats are meant to be means.

Right, but there's more fuzziness around "average income tax rate." You've used a particular method to calculate that here which I don't think is widely used in real life. It's difficult to properly compare tax rates of nations as they don't usually have a flat rate, so people usually look at something like "tax revenue as a % of GDP." That is, you calculate the average by totaling all tax revenue and dividing it by all income.

Taxation in NationStates is pretty vague, but I think it can be fairly seen as the latter, which means that Average Disposable Income would indeed be Average Income divided by Average Tax Rate, with "average" meaning "mean" in both cases.

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Huelistan
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Postby Huelistan » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:45 am

Caelapes wrote:
[violet] wrote:No, this would be a brand new World Census ranking, not a replacement for "Average Income."

Could there be a corresponding opposite census for “most services provided by the state” for nations that have a high “average income” that is, as shown by this new census, entirely provided in the form of services like healthcare and education and not actual wages? I’m top 3% in the world for average “income” but that’s expressed entirely through services and not through a paycheck.



Same here, with a 97% income tax, most of my citizens enjoy their money in the form of services. If it doesn't supress the current Income stat, I see no problem, although something like "per capita govt expeditures" would be nice.

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The Army of Dragonisia
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Postby The Army of Dragonisia » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:41 pm

I like disposable incomes as a new ranking, but not as replacement for average incomes. It appears the intent on it to be a new ranking. In that case, make it so.

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Merconitonitopia
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Postby Merconitonitopia » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:54 pm

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