NationStates

Flanderlion wrote:The only reason the majority of players can make the update is because we've adjusted to it. No matter what it changes to, I can adjust to whenever it is, and most serious GPers can do the same.

ahahahahah. Yes, we'll just expect troops to tag from class at 2pm and update during dinner as well.

Kylia Quilor wrote:And why do you think that was the period of lowest server use? Because so much of the playerbase isn't online at the time because so much of the playerbase is in the US.

If it's that hard for US players to be online then, we should move update time to a better slot

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:First of all...go reread Tim and me on playerbase %'s.

Second of all, you're correct, I was saying it's based on US time in general because the playerbase is in the US ;P

I'm not talking about playerbase% at all. I was saying that people can - and do - make updates during the times you've said that they can't. They already do that. America's slot happens to be 9-12. But all around the world people are making updates at 2,4,6,8 etc. People do it. Hence Americans could do it.

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:

Flanderlion wrote:The only reason the majority of players can make the update is because we've adjusted to it. No matter what it changes to, I can adjust to whenever it is, and most serious GPers can do the same.

ahahahahah. Yes, we'll just expect troops to tag from class at 2pm and update during dinner as well.

!?!?!?!?!
People already do!
What the actual fuck, Souls.

Miporin wrote:

Moneyness wrote:Do you understand how the updates currently work? Right now with minor it has those in Europe getting the same privilege as those in the US receive during major but on the opposite update as those in the US get.

Not exactly true. Updating from midnight to 1AM is significantly more viable on weekdays than updating from 5/6PM to 6/7PM for anyone who has work or academics, coupled by a commute. Certainly, weekends work just fine in contrast, but that's 2/7 days of the week. And that's only considering EST on the 'merican end. As you go further west, making it to major gets easier and easier, going from a baseline that was already more accessible than that of the average european.

Ummmmm not really. Updating from midnight to 1 AM is not viable for days where people have exams, papers, or other plans early in the morning. Then there is also those are still in high school whose parents won't have them staying up that late so can't then. As for those that have work or academics they could wake up early and participate at 5 or 6 am before heading to work if they wanted to and then choose to go to sleep earlier. They already would be waking up at 7 am for work already most likely so wouldn't be too much more for them to do. Then those on the other side would be able to make the other updates. Again I will point at there is minor there for a reason. Minor is the update that parallels with Europe the best for them to use. Yet it is not used as much because that part of the player base and those from there decide not to. The same could be said in Europe depending on which direction that they go for minor. Please look at a GMT map online so you can understand that the other half of the world has the same oppurtunites for update but on the opposite update. Like major being around 9 pm - 12 am in the US will have minor in Europe being 9 pm - 12 am across their area as well. As for your point about commute, academics, and work that will be an issue and problem for people everywhere. It's called busy people and it is harder for busy people to participate in more things since they do have a fuller schedule.

Flanderlion wrote:The only reason the majority of players can make the update is because we've adjusted to it. No matter what it changes to, I can adjust to whenever it is, and most serious GPers can do the same. Obviously no one can make every update due to RL unless they're stuck at home with no social life/job whatsoever, but for ops I've updated from classes/set an alarm for the middle of the night and tons of others use mobile.

I'm fairly sure the update was scheduled for when there was low server load, not for accessibility for the US. Do you East Coasters seriously think midnight for your TZ is about making it accessible for you?

Also NZ update starts at 4 - 6 depending on daylight savings. If Chingis can get up at 4am daily to update on minors, I'm not seeing that a week or two of tough updates is going to kill anyone.

Edit: Subsequent posts from me posting this rendered part of this post pointless, but I'd already written it.

Chingis isn't normal. I don't know how he does that.

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:

Flanderlion wrote:The only reason the majority of players can make the update is because we've adjusted to it. No matter what it changes to, I can adjust to whenever it is, and most serious GPers can do the same.

ahahahahah. Yes, we'll just expect troops to tag from class at 2pm and update during dinner as well.

Yes

A lot of people already do that. I'm not entirely sure why that seems so outrageous to you.

Moneyness wrote:Like major being around 9 pm - 12 am in the US will have minor in Europe being 9 pm - 12 am across their area as well.

I live in Germany, which is in a rather central part of Europe. Major/minor updates for me are usually 6am/6pm, respectively.

Moneyness wrote:Please look at a GMT map online so you can understand that the other half of the world has the same oppurtunites for update but on the opposite update.

I recommend that you heed your own advice.

House of Judah wrote:Let me start off by saying I'm rather suspicious of that claim. The admin team for NS has long been aware there is a simple fix that would instantly make the 'natives' not feel powerless in a region where the founder account has disappeared, which is allowing us to tag our regions as opting out and never having to deal with R/D again.

Or letting founders designate heirs to their position in advance...

Opting out is both not an option and not on topic for this topic. Nor is Founder Succession.

Flanderlion wrote:If Chingis can get up at 4am daily to update on minors, I'm not seeing that a week or two of tough updates.......

Chingis I'd a special kiddo. I don't think most of GP who works or studies at uni and often has late nights would be as ready to be as dedicated as someone who had secondary school at 9am, where he sometimes missed first period anyway and also went to sleep really early.

The points that people have made on the even spread around could rise are for the most part irrelevant imho. Right now Australia is the only country I know of with 2 updates that are near impossible to make except for weekend majors. Every other moderately significant player base has decentish update timing. Shifting them around will mean entire swathes of time would pass where update was literally in a dead zone of being perfect for a non existent player base and not convenient for everyone else. If we had 3 or 4 updates a day shifting them around could work but with just the 2 a day it's not the grandest of ideas.

Also please note that most of the people advocating for the change are those that honestly couldn't be any further from military gameplay.

I think this would actually be a pretty awesome change. I know there are a lot of players excluded from R/D because they can’t be around at the current update times. I’m one of them. I’m not sure how adding more opportunities would depress participation. Tag ops could be done throughout the day. Big ops wouldn’t change— orgs would plan for when there’s max updaters online.

Glen-Rhodes wrote:I think this would actually be a pretty awesome change. I know there are a lot of players excluded from R/D because they can’t be around at the current update times. I’m one of them. I’m not sure how adding more opportunities would depress participation. Tag ops could be done throughout the day. Big ops wouldn’t change— orgs would plan for when there’s max updaters online.

Because you're not adding more opportunities. Having 4 updates a day would be adding more opportunities (not that I'm suggesting that). This is moving, on average, the same number of opportunities, mostly into parts of the day when a much larger percent of the majority of the user-base is unable to participate. Tim did the math, I did the math, yada yada. Tag ops won;t be done throughout the day, because you'll rarely have enough people be able to be on for an hour throughout the day to actually have a run. And then when those people are on, there won't be an update. Big ops would be impacted, because there's a chance, depending on the method of implementation, that there *won't be* an update when max updaters are online, aka friday and saturday evening, for weeks or months (the latter is possible with the dice roll method, where it could conceivably shift to 2 early times and then averagely remain there for a while). That totally fucks with planning, which is often done well more than 2 weeks out.

I clearly read the OP entirely wrong, thinking it was splitting update over every hour. I don’t really see the technical point of rotating updates to randomly chosen hours, you’re right. If it’s necessary for memory allocation issues, that’s one thing. If it’s just to spice things up, that seems pointless to me. Changes should be focused on obviously increasing participation. Randomizing when update occurs doesn’t obviously do that, even if there’s some statistical model that might say it might happen.

This change has no clear advantage for players. While an update at a more reasonable time would theoretically allow players like me to participate, if it’s not consistent, then I’m not going to bother. I’m not sure it would decrease participation. But practically speaking, an adult with a full time job isn’t going join in if it’s not at a guaranteed time. I’d expect to see pretty much the same number & types of participants as we do today, even if there are current R/Ders who would get left out of various updates. Which raises the question of what’s the goal.

I would venture to say that the discussion here in Rotating Update is mostly a case of Tyranny of the Majority, where those that aren't benefited by the current Update Time are being outnumbered by those who are.

Vuori Kunin-Grrs wrote:I would venture to say that the discussion here in Rotating Update is mostly a case of Tyranny of the Majority, where those that aren't benefited by the current Update Time are being outnumbered by those who are.

Well yes, feedback from the people who actually play the game should be favored more over the people who don't.

Aurum Raider wrote:

Vuori Kunin-Grrs wrote:I would venture to say that the discussion here in Rotating Update is mostly a case of Tyranny of the Majority, where those that aren't benefited by the current Update Time are being outnumbered by those who are.

Well yes, feedback from the people who actually play the game should be favored more over the people who don't.

I think if this was actually implemented in NS for say, the course of a month, and player base numbers increase in different places around the world, with an overall increase in all player base numbers in NS, than we could confidently say that the Update Time is directly causing the American majority in players of RD. If not, than that would be disproved, and a precedent would be set. I do not believe that the Update Time has ever been changed before to allow such a precedent to already be present.

Vuori Kunin-Grrs wrote:

Aurum Raider wrote:
Well yes, feedback from the people who actually play the game should be favored more over the people who don't.

I think if this was actually implemented in NS for say, the course of a month, and player base numbers increase in different places around the world, with an overall increase in all player base numbers in NS, than we could confidently say that the Update Time is directly causing the American majority in players of RD. If not, than that would be disproved, and a precedent would be set. I do not believe that the Update Time has ever been changed before to allow such a precedent to already be present.

You seem to have the misconception that a different update time will increase player base around the world. That's simply not true. People do not join this game because of R/D. Most of them frankly have no idea what R/D is until they've either been affected by it, have spent enough time in a GP-affiliated region to learn about it, or directly participate in it. It's more than fair to say that the current demographic breakdowns will stay the same throughout any changes to the update system, meaning that the game will remain populated by ~60% Americans and specifically ~25% East Coast Americans.

It's not a difficult correlation to make, that the largest proportion of the player base will have the largest proportion of R/Ders. That proportion is and will remain the United States (and Canada).

Tim-Opolis wrote::o

Vuori Kunin-Grrs wrote:I think if this was actually implemented in NS for say, the course of a month, and player base numbers increase in different places around the world, with an overall increase in all player base numbers in NS, than we could confidently say that the Update Time is directly causing the American majority in players of RD. If not, than that would be disproved, and a precedent would be set. I do not believe that the Update Time has ever been changed before to allow such a precedent to already be present.

You seem to have the misconception that a different update time will increase player base around the world. That's simply not true. People do not join this game because of R/D. Most of them frankly have no idea what R/D is until they've either been affected by it, have spent enough time in a GP-affiliated region to learn about it, or directly participate in it. It's more than fair to say that the current demographic breakdowns will stay the same throughout any changes to the update system, meaning that the game will remain populated by ~60% Americans and specifically ~25% East Coast Americans.

It's not a difficult correlation to make, that the largest proportion of the player base will have the largest proportion of R/Ders. That proportion is and will remain the United States (and Canada).

So, do we have statistics on where the entire player base primarily comes from? I believe Eluvatar is trying to get reliable data on this?

Vuori Kunin-Grrs wrote:

Tim-Opolis wrote::o
You seem to have the misconception that a different update time will increase player base around the world. That's simply not true. People do not join this game because of R/D. Most of them frankly have no idea what R/D is until they've either been affected by it, have spent enough time in a GP-affiliated region to learn about it, or directly participate in it. It's more than fair to say that the current demographic breakdowns will stay the same throughout any changes to the update system, meaning that the game will remain populated by ~60% Americans and specifically ~25% East Coast Americans.

It's not a difficult correlation to make, that the largest proportion of the player base will have the largest proportion of R/Ders. That proportion is and will remain the United States (and Canada).

So, do we have statistics on where the entire player base primarily comes from? I believe Eluvatar is trying to get reliable data on this?

Once again, actually reading my posts and Soul's posts would be of benefit for you before selectively replying to the bits you want to reply to.

Vuori Kunin-Grrs wrote:

Aurum Raider wrote:
Well yes, feedback from the people who actually play the game should be favored more over the people who don't.

I think if this was actually implemented in NS for say, the course of a month, and player base numbers increase in different places around the world, with an overall increase in all player base numbers in NS, than we could confidently say that the Update Time is directly causing the American majority in players of RD. If not, than that would be disproved, and a precedent would be set. I do not believe that the Update Time has ever been changed before to allow such a precedent to already be present.

60ish% of web traffic to http://www.nationstates.net is US and Canada alone. Changing what areas R/D favors will not change the underlying distribution of the playbase of the game. As I have said before, any form of rotation may well increase participation from other areas, but if the cost of that is making it generally less accessible to the 60ish%, you will likely see a mathematical decrease in participation in R/D.

I'll have to agree with you there, though I'd still be interested in simply a week of Rotating Update to see its results.

Vuori Kunin-Grrs wrote:I would venture to say that the discussion here in Rotating Update is mostly a case of Tyranny of the Majority, where those that aren't benefited by the current Update Time are being outnumbered by those who are.

Hi, person who isn't personally benefited by the current update and is still against the proposed change speaking. While having updates rotate in the proposed way could potentially make updates more accessible to me, that's very much tempered by the numerous logistical problems that arise along with it. It's not a 'people in privileged time zones only want to keep their privilege' issue, it's one of scuppering the ability to plan in the long-term and expecting large portions of r/d to build their schedules around the whimsy of rng.

This could be a wildly stupid idea, but what if minor update and major update weren't twelve hours apart? Like major update occurred at the same time, but minor update was only five hours before major update. That way, to both Americans and Europeans, update for them occurred around midnight. It's possible to do something like this now that update isn't linked to issues.

I think the gameplay could be far more exciting with this kind of structure because the major and minor crews would be working in close collaboration and there would be lot of competitive back and forth between the two updates close together. Major updates would become vitally important for liberations to liberate occupied regions taken at minor, prior to piling taking hold of the occupation.

I would expect that nineteen hour gap (as opposed to our current twelve hour gap) between the major and minor to be kind of the calm before the storm, full of preparation and anticipation.

Five hours is also just enough time to squeak a WA resolution into the queue if you're good. If I were still a young author, I'd try to swing it.

Unibot III wrote:This could be a wildly stupid idea, but what if minor update and major update weren't twelve hours apart? Like major update occurred at the same time, but minor update was only five hours before major update. That way, to both Americans and Europeans, update for them occurred around midnight. It's possible to do something like this now that update isn't linked to issues.

I think the gameplay could be far more exciting with this kind of structure because the major and minor crews would be working in close collaboration and there would be lot of competitive back and forth between the two updates close together. Major updates would become vitally important for liberations to liberate occupied regions taken at minor, prior to piling taking hold of the occupation.

I would expect that nineteen hour gap (as opposed to our current twelve hour gap) between the major and minor to be kind of the calm before the storm, full of preparation and anticipation.

Five hours is also just enough time to squeak a WA resolution into the queue if you're good. If I were still a young author, I'd try to swing it.

Also those minor missions could be f-king enormous missions on both sides, now that I think about it. It's an organizer's dream move-time.

Unibot III wrote:This could be a wildly stupid idea, but what if minor update and major update weren't twelve hours apart? Like major update occurred at the same time, but minor update was only five hours before major update. That way, to both Americans and Europeans, update for them occurred around midnight. It's possible to do something like this now that update isn't linked to issues.

I think the gameplay could be far more exciting with this kind of structure because the major and minor crews would be working in close collaboration and there would be lot of competitive back and forth between the two updates close together. Major updates would become vitally important for liberations to liberate occupied regions taken at minor, prior to piling taking hold of the occupation.

I would expect that nineteen hour gap (as opposed to our current twelve hour gap) between the major and minor to be kind of the calm before the storm, full of preparation and anticipation.

Five hours is also just enough time to squeak a WA resolution into the queue if you're good. If I were still a young author, I'd try to swing it.

Hi there Uni, we don't talk much but I'm Lenly. 5pm minor updates might not be best for East Coasters either, on account that a large portion of jobs run from 9am to 5pm and people will be just getting out of work. On top of that, others who get out a little earlier will be doing important stuff at that time like chores/shopping/cooking etc etc. And again, I wouldn't be able to make 5pm updates although right now with it placed at 12pm I can make it.

Not to mention how much that screws with operations. Who would ever start an operation at minor when they could have 19 hours instead of 5 to pile before the first chance for a Lib? As is, you have to balance more updaters being on at major than minor with less people piling between major and minor than from minor to major. It’s a solid trade off that leaves both with benefits. In your scenario, major would probably still have more people, and also massively having the favor in piling.

In terms of going back to “fairness,” it also increases the odds that for some players, both updates fall within the period where they sleep or work.

Lenlyvit wrote:

Unibot III wrote:This could be a wildly stupid idea, but what if minor update and major update weren't twelve hours apart? Like major update occurred at the same time, but minor update was only five hours before major update. That way, to both Americans and Europeans, update for them occurred around midnight. It's possible to do something like this now that update isn't linked to issues.

I think the gameplay could be far more exciting with this kind of structure because the major and minor crews would be working in close collaboration and there would be lot of competitive back and forth between the two updates close together. Major updates would become vitally important for liberations to liberate occupied regions taken at minor, prior to piling taking hold of the occupation.

I would expect that nineteen hour gap (as opposed to our current twelve hour gap) between the major and minor to be kind of the calm before the storm, full of preparation and anticipation.

Five hours is also just enough time to squeak a WA resolution into the queue if you're good. If I were still a young author, I'd try to swing it.

Hi there Uni, we don't talk much but I'm Lenly. 5pm minor updates might not be best for East Coasters either, on account that a large portion of jobs run from 9am to 5pm and people will be just getting out of work. On top of that, others who get out a little earlier will be doing important stuff at that time like chores/shopping/cooking etc etc. And again, I wouldn't be able to make 5pm updates although right now with it placed at 12pm I can make it.

Hi! EAST COAST REPRESENT!

I was actually suggesting leaving major update where it is:

Minor Update (6:00-7:00 PM EST)
Major Update (12:00-1:00 AM EST)

So if you’re a proper East Coaster, that’s 7-8 pm and 1-2 am.