[Discussion] Rotating Update

[Aclion]

One of the most frustrating things about this game is the fact that the update is so inconvenient to so many people's timetables. A huge proportion of people who want to get involved in R/D simply can't, and are forced to the sidelines. However, as people have mentioned, the rotating update brings about too many downsides. I fully support a third, fixed update.

A third update means another time defenders need to be at their posts to protect regions from raiders who may or may not even show up. This is the thing that keeps me away from R/D, if I wanted to sit around for half an hour waiting for someone to not show up I'd start dating again. I'd like to see update less often, make an event out of the thing.

[Mallorea and Riva]

That's not the topic of this conversation. We're not turning this into a "get rid of raiding" thread.

What's your opinion on the concepts presented (rotating update or three update)? Ive been very curious to see if anyone from moderation (besides Elu) would offer their opinion on the changes to update proposed since they're the people who would have to decide on a course of action and implement it once decided.

The third update idea would previously have been a nonstarter in my mind simply because you'd need someone to be online three times a day to be delegate of a region in a raid or post liberation scenario. Even native delegates would have an extra update to worry about. With the introduction of ROs, however, that concern is mitigated somewhat. You don't need to share the point nation so you can just have someone else be on. Whether a third update would create an imbalance in defending against raids, I don't know. It would certainly provide more opportunities for raids, but if new players were available it may not be an issue.

Part of the problem with this discussion is that we don't really have hard data on our hands of what are the ideal update times for all NS users. I'm skeptical about the semi-random drift system mentioned in the OP, I think that simply having update shift by regular, predictable time increments would provide stability to the game for players even if update would be calculated a week in advance. I once thought that changing update time was a bad idea generally, but I've thought on it since then and now I'm leaning towards thinking that as long as update rotates frequently, no one group of individuals will be boxed out of update operations.

[Intelligeneria]

Part of the problem with this discussion is that we don't really have hard data on our hands of what are the ideal update times for all NS users.

Would it be that difficult for the NS Moderator team to conduct a survey of our IP addresses, to see the locations and geographical trends of where NS users lie? That would give us a good understanding of what timezones potential R/D'ers are in, and work according to that. To make it easier/faster on whichever script would be used, we could only check the IP locations of nations which are at least, say, a month old.

Or, if that doesn't work, is there any way the Admins could see what times the players are online/checking NS? I'm envisaging a line graph with time on the x-axis, and number of players online on the y-axis.

That could at least give us a starting point on what update times would be most convenient to different players and groups of players (also it would be interesting regardless).

[Unibot III]

What's your opinion on the concepts presented (rotating update or three update)? Ive been very curious to see if anyone from moderation (besides Elu) would offer their opinion on the changes to update proposed since they're the people who would have to decide on a course of action and implement it once decided.

The third update idea would previously have been a nonstarter in my mind simply because you'd need someone to be online three times a day to be delegate of a region in a raid or post liberation scenario. Even native delegates would have an extra update to worry about. With the introduction of ROs, however, that concern is mitigated somewhat. You don't need to share the point nation so you can just have someone else be on. Whether a third update would create an imbalance in defending against raids, I don't know. It would certainly provide more opportunities for raids, but if new players were available it may not be an issue.

Part of the problem with this discussion is that we don't really have hard data on our hands of what are the ideal update times for all NS users. I'm skeptical about the semi-random drift system mentioned in the OP, I think that simply having update shift by regular, predictable time increments would provide stability to the game for players even if update would be calculated a week in advance. I once thought that changing update time was a bad idea generally, but I've thought on it since then and now I'm leaning towards thinking that as long as update rotates frequently, no one group of individuals will be boxed out of update operations.

I think the OP, you and others are underestimating the extent to which a 'stable' time is necessary for defenders. Defenders get screwed up just by daylight savings time alone on a biannual basis - without any help from NationStates. Active defenders have to schedule spotting sessions into their lives basically. It's a mess to coordinate if it's changing frequently - regardless of whether the pattern of change is random or routine.

Overall, this proposal seems like an organizational nightmare - and I'm not even sure why there's such a focus on changing update. I mean, why? Update seems to be one of the few things working okay in Gameplay right now. There seems to be a pretty healthy back and forth going on. Meanwhile, the SC is in a creative coma and the admins don't even respond to proposal ideas for it. I'm not sure I've even seen a single response. Gameplay politics are ... stale, and again, no response. But for the past five years, they haven't stopped pressing controversial changes to update mechanics on us. I count four or five, along with the odious "R/D Conference." To what end, really? Are we sure we're truly swamped in potential newbies alienated by curfews and update times? It was pretty rare in my experience that a newbie can't be talking into staying up for update.

People stay up late and get up early to update - that's the deal. Over the past fifteen years, Military Gameplay has convinced thousands of adolescents to stay up way too late and set ridiculous alarm clocks for themselves. I think folks are missing the fact that that's part of the magic. Screw bedtimes. Bedtimes aren't fun.

[Trotterdam]

People stay up late and get up early to update - that's the deal. Over the past fifteen years, Military Gameplay has convinced thousands of adolescents to stay up way too late and set ridiculous alarm clocks for themselves. I think folks are missing the fact that that's part of the magic. Screw bedtimes. Bedtimes aren't fun.

Bedtimes aren't fun because they tell you what your schedule should be.

Having your waking and sleeping times set, day after day, by the needs of a particular game isn't much more fun than having it set by your parents. Neither is true freedom to simply get up when you want to and go to bed when you're tired, and not a minute before.

[Fauxia]

People stay up late and get up early to update - that's the deal. Over the past fifteen years, Military Gameplay has convinced thousands of adolescents to stay up way too late and set ridiculous alarm clocks for themselves. I think folks are missing the fact that that's part of the magic. Screw bedtimes. Bedtimes aren't fun.

Bedtimes aren't fun because they tell you what your schedule should be.

Having your waking and sleeping times set, day after day, by the needs of a particular game isn't much more fun than having it set by your parents. Neither is true freedom to simply get up when you want to and go to bed when you're tired, and not a minute before.

Okay, okay, wait just a second.

Why is it the business of NationStates when people are sleeping? If they think it’s worth it, good for them, they can. Most people do not change their schedule for the update much. If they’re adolescents, they probably stay up til 2 anyway, it isn’t really a change. If they do change it, it’s their business. This whole debate right here is ridiculous.

I think Unibot hit it right on the nose on all of his points. R/D mechanics are one of a few things that really couldn’t use some changes.

Part of the problem with this discussion is that we don't really have hard data on our hands of what are the ideal update times for all NS users.

Would it be that difficult for the NS Moderator team to conduct a survey of our IP addresses, to see the locations and geographical trends of where NS users lie? That would give us a good understanding of what timezones potential R/D'ers are in, and work according to that. To make it easier/faster on whichever script would be used, we could only check the IP locations of nations which are at least, say, a month old.

Or, if that doesn't work, is there any way the Admins could see what times the players are online/checking NS? I'm envisaging a line graph with time on the x-axis, and number of players online on the y-axis.

That could at least give us a starting point on what update times would be most convenient to different players and groups of players (also it would be interesting regardless).

See Tim’s post: viewtopic.php?p=32811317#p32811317

[Klaus Devestatorie]

And if you're in the Southern Hemisphere, the update time bounces twice. 1:30pm/am start to a 3:30pm/am start. But it's part of the deal, I guess.

[Galiantus III]

Overall, this proposal seems like an organizational nightmare - and I'm not even sure why there's such a focus on changing update. I mean, why? Update seems to be one of the few things working okay in Gameplay right now. There seems to be a pretty healthy back and forth going on. Meanwhile, the SC is in a creative coma and the admins don't even respond to proposal ideas for it. I'm not sure I've even seen a single response. Gameplay politics are ... stale, and again, no response. But for the past five years, they haven't stopped pressing controversial changes to update mechanics on us. I count four or five, along with the odious "R/D Conference." To what end, really? Are we sure we're truly swamped in potential newbies alienated by curfews and update times? It was pretty rare in my experience that a newbie can't be talking into staying up for update.

I think Unibot hit it right on the nose on all of his points. R/D mechanics are one of a few things that really couldn’t use some changes

That's not what he was saying, and I agree with his point: there are aspects of gameplay that need discussing, but the update is low priority.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Having ROs doesn’t really mitigate the problem of needing somebody online for a third update. If it’s a disqualifying problem without ROs, then there’s nothing special about an additional person, because the problem isn’t manpower. The problem is time availability. And given that there isn’t exactly a metric ton of timezone diversity in most regions — this is verifiable by looking at TZ stats on the server — there would still be difficulty filling in another update.

[Fauxia]

Overall, this proposal seems like an organizational nightmare - and I'm not even sure why there's such a focus on changing update. I mean, why? Update seems to be one of the few things working okay in Gameplay right now. There seems to be a pretty healthy back and forth going on. Meanwhile, the SC is in a creative coma and the admins don't even respond to proposal ideas for it. I'm not sure I've even seen a single response. Gameplay politics are ... stale, and again, no response. But for the past five years, they haven't stopped pressing controversial changes to update mechanics on us. I count four or five, along with the odious "R/D Conference." To what end, really? Are we sure we're truly swamped in potential newbies alienated by curfews and update times? It was pretty rare in my experience that a newbie can't be talking into staying up for update.

I think Unibot hit it right on the nose on all of his points. R/D mechanics are one of a few things that really couldn’t use some changes

That's not what he was saying, and I agree with his point: there are aspects of gameplay that need discussing, but the update is low priority.

It’s basically what he was saying, I just extended it from the update to all of r/d

[Fauxia]

Having ROs doesn’t really mitigate the problem of needing somebody online for a third update. If it’s a disqualifying problem without ROs, then there’s nothing special about an additional person, because the problem isn’t manpower. The problem is time availability. And given that there isn’t exactly a metric ton of timezone diversity in most regions — this is verifiable by looking at TZ stats on the server — there would still be difficulty filling in another update.

I agree with this.

Plus, a third update just seems unbalanced. Many people, though not all, use 12-hour clocks, so it makes sense that the update is at a certain time throughout those. It doesn’t make sense to have, I don’t know, one update at 00:00 EST, one at 08:00 EST, one at 16:00 EST