Feminist. It's not in the regional tag cloud, should it be?

[Maupof]

Egalitarianism holds that all people are equal; Feminism only holds that men and women are equal. In other words, individual political ideologies may hold differing degrees of Egalitarianism, but the question of Feminist or Not Feminist is binary.

What's this? There's another type of person other than males and females that I don't know about. How did I go for so long without noticing this third sex that egalitarians consider but feminists don't?
Of course the question of feminist or not is binary. But so is egalitarian and non-egalitarian, or the question of tea or coffee, or short or tall, or whatever. Play semantic games all you like but that won't make the ideology of Feminism an absolute. Just as egalitarianism has differing internal definitions so too does feminism.

I didn't want to bring this up but it looks like I have to....
Feminism in the west can be traced back to at least the early 1800s and some would say as far back as "the reformation" epitomized in the non-conformist sects in England and the Netherlands. Because of this depth of history western feminism has taken many turns and reached into all sorts of spaces, some darker than others. Western republics have their own brands of feminism, but so did the Soviets, and (I write while trying not to puke) so did the fascists. To an anarchist, Bolshevism is fraternal and fascism is patriarchal, but both would consider their own treatment of women as a form of "liberation" regardless of the thoughts of some filthy nihilists. No nazi would call themselves an egalitarian but many would consider themselves feminist to a degree
My point being that "feminism" as a social construct has a fluid and relativistic definition. It is not as simplistic as you try to make it seem. It reaches parts of political, social and ethical philosophy that egalitarianism doesn't while still retaining a more precise impression of it's overall meaning.
All the liberalist sjw regions will pick "egalitarian" because virtue signalling is what they do. But few would use "feminist" because of their aversion to things like positive discrimination, housework and public breast feeding, also because they believe feminism is synonymous with matriarchy. This kind of mis-guided use of tags is no better than tag-spamming and will devalue the "egalitarian" tag so why bother?
The same argument advocating "feminism" against "egalitarian" is being made post after post. This is because none who rebut this are developing the argument. Various points are being made by the feminist camp which are not being addressed by egalitarian side. The same statements are being re-arranged and re-worded with no responses of any substance to points made by the "feminist" players.
I was hoping, at least, to have a decent argument about this subject, but this is just boring. Can't anyone persuade me of the merits of "egalitarian" over "feminist"?

[Reploid Productions]

The biggest obstacle was really, "Well, if we add X, then Y is going to start shrieking for a tag, too!" After a rather intense session of chair-throwing debate in the sekrit lair, we came to the conclusion that "Feminist" and "Patriarchal" cover the bases sufficiently.

The main thing to keep in mind when looking at adding new tags is that the tag system is not intended to give regions a way to super-specify their theme/ideology/etc. It's to give players looking for a region a way to broadly narrow down their options: so that instead of trying to sift through 20,000+ regions for one they'd like to look into they can use tags to generally narrow down a more manageable shortlist to look at in greater detail. Hence "religious" instead of Catholic/Jewish/Islamic/Buddhist/Pastafarian/etc, or "Anarchist" instead of half a dozen different flavors for AnLibs, AnCaps, etc, "Fandom" instead of "Whovian/Brony/Trekkie/Jedi/Browncoat/Otaku/etc"- several regions broadly fall under those umbrella terms, and it is very easy to quickly look through regions with those tags to discern the specifics that apply.

[FreethinkingAnarchists ResidingWherever]

If a "feminist" tag is added, then "anti-feminist" should be added as well for the sake of ideological balance.

Sure, there are lots of other tags denoting evil. Whoever uses it would be right at home, and it would be easier to know where they stand.

[Maupof]

Hats off to whichever mods helped make that decision. Personally I've tried to be as reasonable and objective as possible, and have generally felt this reciprocated. I didn't raise this subject in order to prove my piousness or something, but to make positive changes in the world around me. Thanks to all the players and admin who helped this happen, and to those who offered opposition.
Let's hope the results repay the efforts.

[Christian Democrats]

Three new tags: Egalitarian, Feminist, and Patriarchal.

In my opinion, the latter two tags should be symmetrical. Call them feminist/masculinist (both positive connotations), or call them matriarchal/patriarchal (both negative connotations). The current names are skewed to the left.

[Aclion]

Play semantic games all you like

You cannot criticize semantics in a debate about which tags should be used to refer to which ideas. That is semantics. It's like going to Washington D.C. and complaining about how political things are.

Three new tags: Egalitarian, Feminist, and Patriarchal.

In my opinion, the latter two tags should be symmetrical. Call them feminist/masculinist (both positive connotations), or call them matriarchal/patriarchal (both negative connotations). The current names are skewed to the left.

This is what I've been thinking, the problem is that those phases aren't symmetrical outside of a specific context. I was going to suggest(only half as a joke) that the tags include matriarchal/patriarchal and egalitarian; and feminists can identify as Matriarchal or Egalitarian depending on what sort they are.

But while patriarchy usually has connotations with antifeminism and misogyny it also can mean simply a society in which dynastic inheritance goes through the male line. Matriarchy on the other hand is the opposite. It almost always refers to hereditary rules with feminism and misandry being a footnote. This distinction may seem frivolous but consider that many player in RP regions are playing as a form of government where rule is inherited.

[Maupof]

Play semantic games all you like

You cannot criticize semantics in a debate about which tags should be used to refer to which ideas. That is semantics. It's like going to Washington D.C. and complaining about how political things are.

Yawn.
Don't give me that crap. The argument wasn't about semantics. It was about linguistic relativism. See, I can use italics too. It's not like going to Washington and complaining about the amount of politics at all, it's like going there and complaining about the style of the politics, but why I would travel to a foreign country to do that is beyond me. Also using the term "semantic games" makes it obvious that it was the interaction of semantics and syntax that I was referring to. Not semantics alone.

I think the tag words choosen by the admin are perfectly workable for our needs on NS. There are problems with the other words suggested, which had also been suggested earlier in the thread.
First off, Feminism is not synonymous with egalitarian. I can't be bothered to explain it again, but trust me, if you think it is you have a very narrow understanding of feminism.
Next, Masculinist is a very minor philosophy, and considering that males hold privilege over females in 95% of humanity, it is materially irrelevant, while, at the same time making feminism more relevant. This makes using it here on NS pointless as only tag-spammers, trolls and vague satirists would bother to use it.
Next,....
Patriarchy: this is where political, social or economic power is held in male hands through some form of birth-right.
Matriarchy: this is where political, social or economic power is held in female hands through some form of birth-right.
Feminism is not the opposite of patriarchy. Feminism is not matriarchy. While feminism in general opposes patriarchy, some feminists also oppose matriarchy while others support it.
Saying that patriarchy/matriarchy, feminist/masculinist are positive/negative, or politically left/right identifiers is a completely subjective statement. I only consider one of these words positive and consider none as exclusive to left or right wing politics. So there's at least two people on the planet who have different understandings of these terms. By the assumed definition of these terms it isn't skewed left or right as matriarchy and patriarchy are both options for nation descriptions.
So what's the next word to be suggested? If not the ones we have, then which?
For what is worth I don't really think adding "egalitarian" was necessary. I think it's so wide a term that it's almost meaningless. I understand that we can't use terms that are too specific because we will loose those beautiful grey areas we all love to argue over. Hence the call for a feminist tag. It has a relatively accurate definition with a myriad of interpretations. There are feminists of all sorts of persuasion, but egalitarians of only a couple.

[Luna Amore]

I'm about ready to remove all three and link to this thread when people ask to add tags.

Give a mouse a cookie and it'll relentlessly dissect everything until nothing means anything. Or something.



The tags are added. It's done. iLock.