Feminist. It's not in the regional tag cloud, should it be?

[Shefkland]

I fully support the inclusion of a feminist tag.

Also, not to sound rude, but why does there need to be a discussion about including a feminist tag but the egalitarian tag got added immediately? Just curious

[Luna Amore]

I fully support the inclusion of a feminist tag.

Also, not to sound rude, but why does there need to be a discussion about including a feminist tag but the egalitarian tag got added immediately? Just curious

What does a Feminist tag do that Egalitarian one doesn't?

[Bedetopia]

I fully support the inclusion of a feminist tag.

Also, not to sound rude, but why does there need to be a discussion about including a feminist tag but the egalitarian tag got added immediately? Just curious

What does a Feminist tag do that Egalitarian one doesn't?

While I think Egalitarian is enough, maybe some regions have far-fetched ideologies where they approve of sexual equality but not economic equality?

[Drasnia]

I fully support the inclusion of a feminist tag.

Also, not to sound rude, but why does there need to be a discussion about including a feminist tag but the egalitarian tag got added immediately? Just curious

What does a Feminist tag do that Egalitarian one doesn't?

A lot of it just has to do with what you identify as your ideology instead of what it objectively is. There has been a huge movement in recent years for feminism. And while many within that movement may more closely resemble egalitarians, they call themselves feminist to be part of a larger group.

[Shefkland]

I fully support the inclusion of a feminist tag.

Also, not to sound rude, but why does there need to be a discussion about including a feminist tag but the egalitarian tag got added immediately? Just curious

What does a Feminist tag do that Egalitarian one doesn't?

Egalitarian is an incredibly broad idea that includes a variety of stances (some which contradict eachother) that boil down to "equality is good". Feminism is, one the other hand, a comparatively specific idea that women face certain struggles due to their gender that need to be addressed for a more equitable society. Feminism is egalitarian, but egalitarianism is not necessarily feminism.

[Caelapes]

What does a Feminist tag do that Egalitarian one doesn't?

accurately describe the political stance of a region, like the folks who have requested this tag and instead got sniped by someone else posting an unrelated tag suggestion in this thread?

[Luna Amore]

They are both close enough together in definition that having both would be splitting hairs. Egalitarian casts a wider net, so it's preferable. It's similar to why we have a Religious tag instead of Christian, Catholic, Mormon, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Taoist, etc tags. There's a balance between usefulness of a tagging system and overall number of tags.

[Caelapes]

I don't describe myself as an "egalitarian," and neither do any of the feminists I know. It's not splitting hairs at all. There are tons of self-professed "egalitarians" who are vehemently antifeminist.

[Annihilators of Chan Island]

I don't describe myself as an "egalitarian," and neither do any of the feminists I know. It's not splitting hairs at all. There are tons of self-professed "egalitarians" who are vehemently antifeminist.

I'd have to agree with this. In fact, the majority of those who oppose feminism in the west do so on the basis that they are egalitarians (or so they claim anyway).

Add to the fact that specifically feminism is a term being used in non-western cultures to promote women's equality where there isn't any and I have to say NS really should have a feminist tag.

[Maupof]

*quietly tows the thread to Technical where it belongs*

I already posted in "technical" and got unsatisfactory responses, but the main reason I posted in general was to find out opinions from other players, not just NSLeft associates.

[Maupof]

I don't describe myself as an "egalitarian," and neither do any of the feminists I know. It's not splitting hairs at all. There are tons of self-professed "egalitarians" who are vehemently antifeminist.

I'd have to agree with this. In fact, the majority of those who oppose feminism in the west do so on the basis that they are egalitarians (or so they claim anyway).

Add to the fact that specifically feminism is a term being used in non-western cultures to promote women's equality where there isn't any and I have to say NS really should have a feminist tag.

I also agree this general idea. As I originally stated, I and others don't think that "anarchist" presupposes "feminist". So why should "egalitarian"? It isn't feminist by default. Feminism is also not necessarily egalitarian. I had considered the use of "egalitarian" before I made any posts about this subject but discounted it because I thought it to be too abstract a construct to bother bringing it up. In fact I couldn't think of any tag other than "feminist" that could be justified in adding to the tag cloud.
Feminism isn't an absolute. It spans political, ethical and cultural differences. There are left-wing feminists as much as there are wrong-wing feminists, or Islamic feminists, or militant ones, or whatever.

[Luna Amore]

I don't describe myself as an "egalitarian," and neither do any of the feminists I know. It's not splitting hairs at all. There are tons of self-professed "egalitarians" who are vehemently antifeminist.

Those people aren't egalitarians then. It's as simple as that. I take their claims about as seriously as someone who professes to be Christian but doesn't believe Jesus was the son of God. It's non-compatible. You don't take their claims seriously either or you wouldn't have put them in quotation marks, so I'm not sure why even bring them up.

Going off the definitions from a couple sites (Google, Merriam), they are nearly the same:

Feminism -
the advocacy of women's rights on the basis of the equality of the sexes.
the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes

Egalitarianism -
the doctrine that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities.
a social philosophy advocating the removal of inequalities among people

One of those casts a slightly wider net. I'm sorry your choice word isn't in the tag cloud, but that isn't its purpose. Its purpose is for new nations to find regions they might like, not perfectly describe every aspect of a region down to the nuance. See my previous Religious tag example. The differences between individual religions is far greater than the difference between egalitarianism and feminism, and yet all religions still manage to share the one tag.

[Maupof]

Egalitarianism, or feminism aren't absolutes. You can't go throwing around dictionary definitions of social philosophies. These definitions will change over time as social ethics and philosophical reality tunnels do. Responding to reality based on absolutist passages from the bible of linguistic realism is how robots behave. Not a flexible, adaptable human being. What if I was to dig out one of my old dictionaries and see what they defined feminism or egalitarian as in 1950's Ireland or 1920's britian? And then how can I logically argue from those definitions to your modern one?
I understand the potential problems making the tag cloud too big, thusly reducing it's effectiveness, this is why I didn't bother to bring up egalitarian as a potential tag. I think it's too shallow a concept to bother with, too narrow an idea to provoke much debate between players.
You write that the tags are there to help new players navigate and not describe every nuance of a region, if that is the case what's with all the different "techs" can't they just be combined into "sci-fi", "fantasy" and "contemporary"? And what's with "snarky"/"silly"/"sureal"/"non-serious"? Seems excessive to me. I get that not all tags are political some are for rp and community, some tools. But this is in essence a political rp game and feminism spans political, ethical and cultural differences while egalitarianism doesn't. I'm making the same argument for feminism against egalitarianism that you are making about "religious". It's not about the differences between feminism and egalitarianism relative to each other, the opposite in fact, it's about how they describe human reality relative to everything except each other. Which has the most potential spark debate? The fact there are healthy forum threads on feminism but none on egalitarianism shows the scope of feminist ideals and the reaction they get, as apposed to egalitarianism being more of a personality trait than a serious, considered political and ethical stance.

[Port Solent]

Looking at the many of the other tags, it certainly should be.

As for the Egalitarian argument - it has Capitalist, Free-Trade & Libertarian on there. All three could be argued as overlapping, so having both Feminist & Egalitarian really shouldn't be an issue.

[Galiantus VII]

Communism and Capitalism have huge followings world-wide and are very well-established and documented forms of government. Libertarian is a descriptive word like Liberal or Conservative which describes a wide field of political thought and ideological leaning based on core principals. Like "Capitalist", "Communist", "Liberal", or "Conservative", "Libertarian" describes ideals surrounding the structure and application of government. I don't know about the Free-Trade tag, but I suspect it has more to do with Role-Playing than actual politics.

Feminism is a specific movement, more similar to a party affiliation or a specific religion than a general governmental or economic structure or system of laws. While there may be many different views held by feminists, that does not make feminism a broad ideology. Feminism cannot be treated as having general principals like Egalitarianism can: Egalitarianism holds that all people are equal; Feminism only holds that men and women are equal. In other words, individual political ideologies may hold differing degrees of Egalitarianism, but the question of Feminist or Not Feminist is binary.

The point is, Feminism does not describe a form of government, economic structure, or general political leaning. It is extraordinarily specific and its addition to the tag cloud would justify the addition of many other things that would bloat it.

(I would also like to point out that if you are advocating to add "Feminist" to the tag cloud, you must also support the addition of "Masculist", as Masculism is the egalitarian opposite of Feminism. I don't want to see either, but if "Feminist" is added to the cloud there is every reason to add "Masculist" as well. Just food for thought.)

[The Novakian Empire]

I dislike it, but it should, yes.

[Guy]

'Egalitarianism' has been used far more frequently by anti-feminists than feminists recently. Indeed, it has attained status as an 'alternative' to feminism, particularly by MRAs, as feminism have supposedly "lost its way".

To suggest that egalitarian can be a replacement for a feminist tag would be entirely at odds with their modern usage in gender issues.

Furthermore, egalitarianism is as equally a philosophy, economic prescription, etc. I understand that not every ideology should be afforded with a tag that describes it with great specificity, but 'egalitarianism' is so multi-faceted that one would gain almost no knowledge about the actual positioning of the region by browsing the tag.

As to the argument that 'feminism' can't be compared with the political ideology tags. The vast majority of the site's user base is based in developed countries, where "socialism" or "communism" hold little sway in their governance. On the other hand, feminist analyses of law and politics are at the centre of their critique.

[Maupof]

Egalitarianism holds that all people are equal; Feminism only holds that men and women are equal. In other words, individual political ideologies may hold differing degrees of Egalitarianism, but the question of Feminist or Not Feminist is binary.

What's this? There's another type of person other than males and females that I don't know about. How did I go for so long without noticing this third sex that egalitarians consider but feminists don't?
Of course the question of feminist or not is binary. But so is egalitarian and non-egalitarian, or the question of tea or coffee, or short or tall, or whatever. Play semantic games all you like but that won't make the ideology of Feminism an absolute. Just as egalitarianism has differing internal definitions so too does feminism.

I didn't want to bring this up but it looks like I have to....
Feminism in the west can be traced back to at least the early 1800s and some would say as far back as "the reformation" epitomized in the non-conformist sects in England and the Netherlands. Because of this depth of history western feminism has taken many turns and reached into all sorts of spaces, some darker than others. Western republics have their own brands of feminism, but so did the Soviets, and (I write while trying not to puke) so did the fascists. To an anarchist, Bolshevism is fraternal and fascism is patriarchal, but both would consider their own treatment of women as a form of "liberation" regardless of the thoughts of some filthy nihilists. No nazi would call themselves an egalitarian but many would consider themselves feminist to a degree
My point being that "feminism" as a social construct has a fluid and relativistic definition. It is not as simplistic as you try to make it seem. It reaches parts of political, social and ethical philosophy that egalitarianism doesn't while still retaining a more precise impression of it's overall meaning.
All the liberalist sjw regions will pick "egalitarian" because virtue signalling is what they do. But few would use "feminist" because of their aversion to things like positive discrimination, housework and public breast feeding, also because they believe feminism is synonymous with matriarchy. This kind of mis-guided use of tags is no better than tag-spamming and will devalue the "egalitarian" tag so why bother?
The same argument advocating "feminism" against "egalitarian" is being made post after post. This is because none who rebut this are developing the argument. Various points are being made by the feminist camp which are not being addressed by egalitarian side. The same statements are being re-arranged and re-worded with no responses of any substance to points made by the "feminist" players.
I was hoping, at least, to have a decent argument about this subject, but this is just boring. Can't anyone persuade me of the merits of "egalitarian" over "feminist"?

[Reploid Productions]

The biggest obstacle was really, "Well, if we add X, then Y is going to start shrieking for a tag, too!" After a rather intense session of chair-throwing debate in the sekrit lair, we came to the conclusion that "Feminist" and "Patriarchal" cover the bases sufficiently.

The main thing to keep in mind when looking at adding new tags is that the tag system is not intended to give regions a way to super-specify their theme/ideology/etc. It's to give players looking for a region a way to broadly narrow down their options: so that instead of trying to sift through 20,000+ regions for one they'd like to look into they can use tags to generally narrow down a more manageable shortlist to look at in greater detail. Hence "religious" instead of Catholic/Jewish/Islamic/Buddhist/Pastafarian/etc, or "Anarchist" instead of half a dozen different flavors for AnLibs, AnCaps, etc, "Fandom" instead of "Whovian/Brony/Trekkie/Jedi/Browncoat/Otaku/etc"- several regions broadly fall under those umbrella terms, and it is very easy to quickly look through regions with those tags to discern the specifics that apply.

[FreethinkingAnarchists ResidingWherever]

If a "feminist" tag is added, then "anti-feminist" should be added as well for the sake of ideological balance.

Sure, there are lots of other tags denoting evil. Whoever uses it would be right at home, and it would be easier to know where they stand.

[Maupof]

Hats off to whichever mods helped make that decision. Personally I've tried to be as reasonable and objective as possible, and have generally felt this reciprocated. I didn't raise this subject in order to prove my piousness or something, but to make positive changes in the world around me. Thanks to all the players and admin who helped this happen, and to those who offered opposition.
Let's hope the results repay the efforts.

[Christian Democrats]

Three new tags: Egalitarian, Feminist, and Patriarchal.

In my opinion, the latter two tags should be symmetrical. Call them feminist/masculinist (both positive connotations), or call them matriarchal/patriarchal (both negative connotations). The current names are skewed to the left.

[Aclion]

Play semantic games all you like

You cannot criticize semantics in a debate about which tags should be used to refer to which ideas. That is semantics. It's like going to Washington D.C. and complaining about how political things are.

Three new tags: Egalitarian, Feminist, and Patriarchal.

In my opinion, the latter two tags should be symmetrical. Call them feminist/masculinist (both positive connotations), or call them matriarchal/patriarchal (both negative connotations). The current names are skewed to the left.

This is what I've been thinking, the problem is that those phases aren't symmetrical outside of a specific context. I was going to suggest(only half as a joke) that the tags include matriarchal/patriarchal and egalitarian; and feminists can identify as Matriarchal or Egalitarian depending on what sort they are.

But while patriarchy usually has connotations with antifeminism and misogyny it also can mean simply a society in which dynastic inheritance goes through the male line. Matriarchy on the other hand is the opposite. It almost always refers to hereditary rules with feminism and misandry being a footnote. This distinction may seem frivolous but consider that many player in RP regions are playing as a form of government where rule is inherited.

[Maupof]

Play semantic games all you like

You cannot criticize semantics in a debate about which tags should be used to refer to which ideas. That is semantics. It's like going to Washington D.C. and complaining about how political things are.

Yawn.
Don't give me that crap. The argument wasn't about semantics. It was about linguistic relativism. See, I can use italics too. It's not like going to Washington and complaining about the amount of politics at all, it's like going there and complaining about the style of the politics, but why I would travel to a foreign country to do that is beyond me. Also using the term "semantic games" makes it obvious that it was the interaction of semantics and syntax that I was referring to. Not semantics alone.

I think the tag words choosen by the admin are perfectly workable for our needs on NS. There are problems with the other words suggested, which had also been suggested earlier in the thread.
First off, Feminism is not synonymous with egalitarian. I can't be bothered to explain it again, but trust me, if you think it is you have a very narrow understanding of feminism.
Next, Masculinist is a very minor philosophy, and considering that males hold privilege over females in 95% of humanity, it is materially irrelevant, while, at the same time making feminism more relevant. This makes using it here on NS pointless as only tag-spammers, trolls and vague satirists would bother to use it.
Next,....
Patriarchy: this is where political, social or economic power is held in male hands through some form of birth-right.
Matriarchy: this is where political, social or economic power is held in female hands through some form of birth-right.
Feminism is not the opposite of patriarchy. Feminism is not matriarchy. While feminism in general opposes patriarchy, some feminists also oppose matriarchy while others support it.
Saying that patriarchy/matriarchy, feminist/masculinist are positive/negative, or politically left/right identifiers is a completely subjective statement. I only consider one of these words positive and consider none as exclusive to left or right wing politics. So there's at least two people on the planet who have different understandings of these terms. By the assumed definition of these terms it isn't skewed left or right as matriarchy and patriarchy are both options for nation descriptions.
So what's the next word to be suggested? If not the ones we have, then which?
For what is worth I don't really think adding "egalitarian" was necessary. I think it's so wide a term that it's almost meaningless. I understand that we can't use terms that are too specific because we will loose those beautiful grey areas we all love to argue over. Hence the call for a feminist tag. It has a relatively accurate definition with a myriad of interpretations. There are feminists of all sorts of persuasion, but egalitarians of only a couple.

[Luna Amore]

I'm about ready to remove all three and link to this thread when people ask to add tags.

Give a mouse a cookie and it'll relentlessly dissect everything until nothing means anything. Or something.



The tags are added. It's done. iLock.