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Saving GA/SC proposals

Bug reports, general help, ideas for improvements, and questions about how things are meant to work.
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Imperium Anglorum
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Saving GA/SC proposals

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:41 pm

Currently, GA and SC proposals are not saved after submission. Why is this the case?

Similarly, given that many rulings are issued by members of the GA Secretariat using the on-site system, which necessarily disappear after the proposal expires, does that rationale hold given the practical desire to keep those proposals for review?

Author: 1 SC and 27 GA resolutions
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Bears Armed
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Postby Bears Armed » Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:37 am

Speaking as a member of the GA Secretariat, I certainly wouldn't object to an automatic saving of GA proposals (including copies of any that get withdrawn by their authors, for easier comparison with later versions), for for a least a while.
No need to keep everything, including every 'one-liner', permanently, though...
Last edited by Bears Armed on Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
The Confederated Clans of the Free Bears of Bears Armed
(includes The Ursine NorthLands) Demonym = Bear[s]; adjective = ‘Urrsish’.
Our population is approximately 20 million. We do have a national government, although its role is strictly limited. Economy = thriving. Those aren't "biker gangs", they're our traditional cross-Clan 'Warrior Societies'... and are generally respected, not feared.
Author of some GA Resolutions, via Bears Armed Mission; subject of an SC resolution.
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Eluvatar
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Postby Eluvatar » Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:31 am

We keep dispatches, we can probably afford to keep proposals.

I think admin would much appreciate suggestions for what kind of UI might be desired. Would adding "X Defunct" as a link in the box that currently reads "0 Legal • 2 Illegal • 2 Public • 0 Discard • 2 Total", such that it would read something like "0 Legal • 2 Illegal • 2 Public • 0 Discard • 1000 Defunct • 1002 Total" be sensible?
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Bears Armed Mission
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Postby Bears Armed Mission » Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:04 am

I'll raise the point in the Secretariat's forum, and see whether there's a consensus there, to start with.
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Eluvatar
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Postby Eluvatar » Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:12 am

To be clear, while the Secretariat members opinions are of particular interest, I am also interested in the preferences of anyone able to coherently explain them.
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Bears Armed
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Postby Bears Armed » Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:14 am

Eluvatar wrote:To be clear, while the Secretariat members opinions are of particular interest, I am also interested in the preferences of anyone able to coherently explain them.

Understood, and agreed, it's just that I'm not sure how much the others follow this section of the forum and so felt that telling them specifically about the possibility was a good idea.
Last edited by Bears Armed on Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Confederated Clans of the Free Bears of Bears Armed
(includes The Ursine NorthLands) Demonym = Bear[s]; adjective = ‘Urrsish’.
Our population is approximately 20 million. We do have a national government, although its role is strictly limited. Economy = thriving. Those aren't "biker gangs", they're our traditional cross-Clan 'Warrior Societies'... and are generally respected, not feared.
Author of some GA Resolutions, via Bears Armed Mission; subject of an SC resolution.
Factbook. We have more than 70 MAPS. Visitors' Guide.
The IDU's WA Drafting Room is open to help you.
Author of issues #429, 712, 729, 934, 1120, 1152.

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Frisbeeteria
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Postby Frisbeeteria » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:19 am

I'm not seeing any harm, but there is a potential benefit. While I have no interest in digging up old proposals, we seem to have players who keep records of all sorts of historical data from the game. The proposal clearing code was put in place when we had Megabytes of storage. We now have Terabytes. Every discarded proposal ever written would probably occupy less than 2-3 megabytes of storage, since they're nothing but text. The old ones are gone and not recoverable, so we're only talking about proposals from this point forward.

My only suggestion is that we consider how they are to be accessed. If we simply failed to remove them from the disk, then links like https://www.nationstates.net/page=UN_view_proposal/id=vihor_1500136456 would work in perpetuity. That would be enough for me. Having players include a link in the relevant thread (which would mostly be Illegal GA Proposals) would completely satisfy my desires for access.

If you think it's important to give everyone access, here's how I'd do it:
0 Legal • 2 Illegal • 2 Public • 0 Discard • 2 Total Active •||• 1000 Defunct • 50 Withdrawn
We can't recapture the thousands of deleted proposals, so the Defunct and Withdrawn numbers would start accumulating from the date of implementation. That's why I don't see a point in listing a Grand Total.

There still remains a need for a Hard Delete option. Some proposals are removed as offensive by the moderation team. As Eluvatar probably knows, we have such a mechanism in place already. My suggestion is that any links or tallies should not include any proposals that are Mod-purged. They should actually be deleted from the disk, as we already log those deletions.

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Eluvatar
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Postby Eluvatar » Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:36 pm

Frisbeeteria wrote:I'm not seeing any harm, but there is a potential benefit. While I have no interest in digging up old proposals, we seem to have players who keep records of all sorts of historical data from the game. The proposal clearing code was put in place when we had Megabytes of storage. We now have Terabytes. Every discarded proposal ever written would probably occupy less than 2-3 megabytes of storage, since they're nothing but text. The old ones are gone and not recoverable, so we're only talking about proposals from this point forward.

My only suggestion is that we consider how they are to be accessed. If we simply failed to remove them from the disk, then links like https://www.nationstates.net/page=UN_view_proposal/id=vihor_1500136456 would work in perpetuity. That would be enough for me. Having players include a link in the relevant thread (which would mostly be Illegal GA Proposals) would completely satisfy my desires for access.

If you think it's important to give everyone access, here's how I'd do it:
0 Legal • 2 Illegal • 2 Public • 0 Discard • 2 Total Active •||• 1000 Defunct • 50 Withdrawn
We can't recapture the thousands of deleted proposals, so the Defunct and Withdrawn numbers would start accumulating from the date of implementation. That's why I don't see a point in listing a Grand Total.

There still remains a need for a Hard Delete option. Some proposals are removed as offensive by the moderation team. As Eluvatar probably knows, we have such a mechanism in place already. My suggestion is that any links or tallies should not include any proposals that are Mod-purged. They should actually be deleted from the disk, as we already log those deletions.


Makes sense to me, I see no need to change the URL for a proposal after it stops being active and I'd much rather total the active proposals than all proposals. One question though: why do you suggest splitting withdrawn from defunct? Defunct was chosen to cover held, withdrawn, or failed to reach quorum. I intended defunct to simply mean that it's no longer a proposal that could get to vote.

Do we want to separate out definitively ruled illegal, timed out, and withdrawn?
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Frisbeeteria
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Anarchy

Postby Frisbeeteria » Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:02 pm

Eluvatar wrote:Do we want to separate out definitively ruled illegal, timed out, and withdrawn?

I didn't catch that you were including Withdrawn in the Defunct category. I think you'd start to run into trouble with definitions, as illegal proposals can easily be withdrawn as well. One pool would be plenty.

It might be nice to have a "Search by Author" on the defunct pool, as people could see at a glance that Examplestan has a history of proposal shitposting.

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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:50 pm

The defunct could easily be something just on the order of keeping the links active, and providing a listing of those links someplace (preferably, with a table, noting the name, author, date submitted, date expired, and legality status). The withdrawn could simply piggy-back off the repeals code and format everything roughly identically.

Author: 1 SC and 27 GA resolutions
Maintainer: GA Passed Resolutions
Developer: Communiqué and InfoEurope
Delegate for Europe
Out-of-character unless marked otherwise
Ideological Bulwark 285, WALL delegate

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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:57 pm

Eluvatar wrote:We keep dispatches, we can probably afford to keep proposals.

I think admin would much appreciate suggestions for what kind of UI might be desired. Would adding "X Defunct" as a link in the box that currently reads "0 Legal • 2 Illegal • 2 Public • 0 Discard • 2 Total", such that it would read something like "0 Legal • 2 Illegal • 2 Public • 0 Discard • 1000 Defunct • 1002 Total" be sensible?

I don't think you even need to have a link to defeated proposals in the queue page. You could have a separate link to "historical proposals" or something, or even just keep proposal data from being deleted when it fails to reach quorum.

Distinguishing legal from illegal proposals would also be good, in my opinion. It would help casual browsers to figure out which proposals were incompatible with GA rules, and which ones simply were unpopular.
Last edited by Wallenburg on Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PROFESSIONAL CRITIC OF ALL THINGS GENSEC
There never has been, nor will there ever be, such thing as a wallenburger.
grestin went through the MKULTRA program and he has more of a free will than wallenburg does - Imperial Idaho
PRO: GOOD || ANTI: BAD

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The Gipper
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby The Gipper » Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:27 pm

I assume this was implied but I didn't see it specifically stated anywhere:

If we're saving the proposals that don't reach quorum or fail to go to vote for another reason - then surely we should also save the resolutions that cleared that hurdle but did not get a majority of votes. By which I mean, failed resolutions.

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Frisbeeteria
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Anarchy

Postby Frisbeeteria » Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:34 pm

The Gipper wrote:failed resolutions.

100% of failed resolutions have a thread in the WA Archive or the General Assembly forum. Every [AT VOTE] thread gets edited to either [PASSED] or [DEFEATED], and mods do a periodic search on those thread titles and Archive all of them. I used to do that once a quarter, but I've been slack lately.

We're talking about simply not deleting old proposals, so they would be preserved under any system. Unless you see a major downside, I don't see why they can't go in the same bin as [defunct] or [historical] proposals.

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Altmoras
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Postby Altmoras » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:52 pm

Any movement on this?
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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:46 pm

Bumping this. Would appreciate some honest feedback, even if it's "we're still thinking about it" or even "it's not going to happen".
PROFESSIONAL CRITIC OF ALL THINGS GENSEC
There never has been, nor will there ever be, such thing as a wallenburger.
grestin went through the MKULTRA program and he has more of a free will than wallenburg does - Imperial Idaho
PRO: GOOD || ANTI: BAD

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Altmoras
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Postby Altmoras » Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:28 am

Almost 2 week bump. Is this happening?
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Lenlyvit
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Postby Lenlyvit » Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:04 am

I would love to see this implemented. Not only would it be nice to compare proposals, but you would be able to look at proposals for things already submitted and it would help you draft new things. Plus, I'm an NS history buff :p
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Eluvatar
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Eluvatar » Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:15 am

Ask again if there's not been progress by November?
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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:48 am

Eluvatar wrote:Ask again if there's not been progress by November?

Assuming you meant November 2017 & not 2018, consider this a bump/ask/whatever.

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Eluvatar
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Postby Eluvatar » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:08 am

Thanks for the reminder.
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Spam Spam Spam
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Postby Spam Spam Spam » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:37 am

Bump, hows the progression?

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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:14 am

Bump
PROFESSIONAL CRITIC OF ALL THINGS GENSEC
There never has been, nor will there ever be, such thing as a wallenburger.
grestin went through the MKULTRA program and he has more of a free will than wallenburg does - Imperial Idaho
PRO: GOOD || ANTI: BAD

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Altmoras
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Altmoras » Wed May 23, 2018 10:58 pm

Bumperino
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Wallenburg
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Wallenburg » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:04 pm

Bump
PROFESSIONAL CRITIC OF ALL THINGS GENSEC
There never has been, nor will there ever be, such thing as a wallenburger.
grestin went through the MKULTRA program and he has more of a free will than wallenburg does - Imperial Idaho
PRO: GOOD || ANTI: BAD

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Frisbeeteria
Senior Game Moderator
 
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Founded: Dec 16, 2003
Anarchy

Postby Frisbeeteria » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:12 pm

Eluvatar wrote:Ask again if there's not been progress by November?

* shakes Eluvatar awake *

It would be a nice one-year anniversary of this thread if we could simply stop deleting expired resolutions. Adding an interface to search them could wait until we had coding time. I would request that author-withdrawn proposals would be included in this, as currently they disappear permanently when the author takes them down.

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