Feature Request: New Influence Level

[Zemnaya Svoboda]

Since the dawn of Influence in April of 2006, we have known of twenty one Influence Levels, from Minnow to Hermit.

Today, The North Pacific contains 6,390 Minnows and one Vassal (the next higher rank). If current trends continue, the region may well soon consist only of Minnows.

We know however that some nations in The North Pacific have more influence than others. Considerably more. The second most influential nation in The North Pacific, Novare Res, a Minnow, is seen to have a Soft Power Disbursement Rating measuring influence of 446. The World Median Soft Power Disbursement Rating is 10. The North Pacific Median Soft Power Disbursement Rating is 6; among World Assembly nations, it is 85.

The region with the next greatest amount of World Assembly nations (636 to The North Pacific's 1008), 10000 Islands, has 25 non-Minnow nations: 1 Ambassador, 3 Duckspeakers, 5 Handshakers, 8 Trucklers, and 8 Vassals. Yes, as a result of changes to influence in feeder and sinker regions, and residents' embracing The North Pacific WA Development Program influence is less concentrated in The North Pacific than in 10000 Islands or many other regions. Nonetheless.

I would like to suggest a new influence level, adjacent to Minnow. It could perhaps be called Guppy. I would leave it to the administrators to come up with a good partition.

[The Blaatschapen]

That would just dilute/postpone the problem.

The more nations a region has, the less of all the region's influence is concentrated in 1 nation. Because that's what is calculated, your influence level vs the sum of the whole region. If the firner is less than X% of the latter, it is a minnow. And with lots of nations, this is likely to be almost always the case.

[TestIsland]

We could have an added category "hatchling" (or "larva") that would be even tinier than the minnow level. It would be interesting, especially in the feeders, where the nations are born.

[Belschaft]

A more logical way to approach this might be to change the way that influence levels are calculated, working of the most influential nation in the region or a collection of the most influential nations rather than calculating the percentage of total regional influence each nation represents.

Using the NS++ SPDR ratings for Lazarus, the ten most influential nations have the following amounts;

(There are issues with this data as not all this influence is actually in Lazarus, leading to some having SPDR ratings well above their actual levels in Lazarus. Where I've identified this I've removed the nations from my data and moved on to the next most influential nation to get an accutate-ish list of the Lazarus top ten.)

Belhomme: 293 - Minnow
Courlany: 229 - Duckspeaker
Harmoneia: 227 - Duckspeaker
Loftegen: 178 - Truckler
Zumo: 169 - Minnow
Borsovia: 155 - Vassal
Funkadelia: 142 - Vassal
Amerion: 140 - Vassal
Powthran: 131 - Minnow
Praenestia: 129 - Minnow
Guy Walters: 125 - Minnow
[nation]Communist Stephen Colbert:[/nation] 120 - Minnow

As you can see, Lazarus has two Duskpearers, one Truckler, three vassals and everyone else is a minnow. We can also work out roughly how much SPDR you need to hold the various ranks - between 132 and 140, for example, to become a Vassal. We also know that of the 21 influence levels that Lazarus is only making use of five. The highest ranked Minnow has 57.2% of the SPDR most influential nation; the sole truckler has 77.7%. Bellow I've shown the percentages both in terms of % of the highest influence nation and % of the top ten highest influence nations (1456 total SPDR).

Courlany: 229 - Duckspeaker | 100% | 15.7%
Harmoneia: 227 - Duckspeaker | 99% | 15.6%
Loftegen: 178 - Truckler | 77.7% | 12%
Borsovia: 155 - Vassal | 67.7% | 10.6%
Funkadelia: 142 - Vassal | 62% | 9.8%
Amerion: 140 - Vassal | 61% | 9.6%
Powthran: 131 - Minnow | 57.2% | 9%
Praenestia: 129 - Minnow | 56.3% | 8.9%
Guy Walters: 125 - Minnow | 54.6% | 8.6%
Communist Stephen Colbert: 120 - Minnow | 52.4% | 8.2%

It should be immediately apparent how such an adjustment would be able to make the influence bands more... meaningful in larger regions, whilst still working in smaller regions as well.

[Zemnaya Svoboda]

That would just dilute/postpone the problem.

The more nations a region has, the less of all the region's influence is concentrated in 1 nation. Because that's what is calculated, your influence level vs the sum of the whole region. If the firner is less than X% of the latter, it is a minnow. And with lots of nations, this is likely to be almost always the case.

I wouldn't object to adding more than one additional influence level in the slightest.

[Ballotonia]

Adding extra levels below Minnow (or between Minnow and Vassal) is easy. I'm willing to do that, as long as there's a good idea of what the names should be.

Rescaling the influence rankings based on the highest-influence nation doesn't strike me as a good idea. Some nations would end up with Superpower raking without being even close to an actual superpower. Living in vast region with lots of nations means one ends up having to share influence with all of them. That's the natural downside of living in such a gargantuan region.

Ballotonia

[TestIsland]

Adding extra levels below Minnow (or between Minnow and Vassal) is easy. I'm willing to do that, as long as there's a good idea of what the names should be.

Rescaling the influence rankings based on the highest-influence nation doesn't strike me as a good idea. Some nations would end up with Superpower raking without being even close to an actual superpower. Living in vast region with lots of nations means one ends up having to share influence with all of them. That's the natural downside of living in such a gargantuan region.

Ballotonia

Here's a bunch for your consideration:

1. Nipper/Hatchling
2. Minnow
3. Page
4. Apprentice/Squire
5. Vassal

[Zemnaya Svoboda]

Adding extra levels below Minnow (or between Minnow and Vassal) is easy. I'm willing to do that, as long as there's a good idea of what the names should be.

Rescaling the influence rankings based on the highest-influence nation doesn't strike me as a good idea. Some nations would end up with Superpower raking without being even close to an actual superpower. Living in vast region with lots of nations means one ends up having to share influence with all of them. That's the natural downside of living in such a gargantuan region.

Ballotonia

Here's a bunch for your consideration:

1. Nipper/Hatchling
2. Minnow
3. Page
4. Apprentice/Squire
5. Vassal

What's wrong with Guppy?

[Flanderlion]

I quite like Guppy as a name, as well as Larva. Not too sure about Nipper though.

3 and 4, I'm not so sure if that fits with the influence naming conventions - I think Vassal is referring to Vassal states.

I do like the idea of adding a group of smaller influence groups, so you can actually see a greater progression when you gain influence.

Do you get notifications when you change influence categories? I don't believe so, but I think that should be considered.

[Kaboomlandia]

Do you get notifications when you change influence categories? I don't believe so, but I think that should be considered.

It shows up in your National Happenings, but not in your Notices bar.

[Zemnaya Svoboda]

A similar descriptor to Vassal in the nationstates sense is Satellite.

[Alleronia]

IMO, it makes sense that no one has too much influence in a region of some 6400 nations.

[Zemnaya Svoboda]

IMO, it makes sense that no one has too much influence in a region of some 6400 nations.

See my previous evidence that actually, a number of nations have quite a bit of influence in The North Pacific.

[Flanderlion]

Are we allowed to ask what the influence bracket percentages are? I know the formula for calculating the influence is off limits, but I'm not sure about the levels related to it.

With new influence levels, there should definitely be at least one level below minnow, preferably more.

The theme for influence level names confused me slightly, but titles such as: Message Carrier, Messenger etc. (although that could be used for envoy), Dreamer, Boot-Shiner, Note-Passer and Unproven for 0 influence nations could be options.

Alleronia - nations do have a large amount of individual influence in large regions, despite the influence changes, but influence levels are calculated as a percentage of the total regions influence, which in large regions is a much higher total, as opposed to smaller regions.

[Zemnaya Svoboda]

Are we allowed to ask what the influence bracket percentages are? I know the formula for calculating the influence is off limits, but I'm not sure about the levels related to it.

We're allowed to ask. Just don't expect an answer.

[Bears Armed]

Next up from 'Minnow' should be 'Sprat'...

[Flanderlion]

Next up from 'Minnow' should be 'Sprat'...

We could rename all the influence levels to fish types. Although, that would get rid of the awe inspiring names like Duck-Speaker, which I wouldn't be too happy to lose. I'm not too sure about the name 'Minnow' in the influence rankings at all - it seems a little out of the pattern, even if it technically works.

And Elu, just for you - 'What are the divisions for influence brackets'?

[Ermarian]

I wonder if the two approaches (pure percentage vs. ranked) could be combined somehow. Above the median (or in the top 10%, or something), nations' levels reflect their share of the region's total influence; for everyone else, it just reflects their position in the influence ranking. This would still distinguish nations in large regions, without hiding how influential its top inhabitants are.

[TestIsland]

How about making influence levels based on the number of standard deviations the nation's influence is, above or below the mean for the region? We could still have the current system, with numeric +/-SDs in bracket...

Eg, An influential Feeder based nation may be Minnow (+7), while a sole nation in a region would be Hermit (0). A newly founded nation could be Minnow (-9) or whatever, which would make them different than an influential nation.

[The Blaatschapen]

How about making influence levels based on the number of standard deviations the nation's influence is, above or below the mean for the region? We could still have the current system, with numeric +/-SDs in bracket...

Eg, An influential Feeder based nation may be Minnow (+7), while a sole nation in a region would be Hermit (0). A newly founded nation could be Minnow (-9) or whatever, which would make them different than an influential nation.

That would be extremely confusing for new players.

And also for anyone who is not used to using "standard deviations" in day to day life.

[TestIsland]

How about making influence levels based on the number of standard deviations the nation's influence is, above or below the mean for the region? We could still have the current system, with numeric +/-SDs in bracket...

Eg, An influential Feeder based nation may be Minnow (+7), while a sole nation in a region would be Hermit (0). A newly founded nation could be Minnow (-9) or whatever, which would make them different than an influential nation.

That would be extremely confusing for new players.

And also for anyone who is not used to using "standard deviations" in day to day life.

Everything is confusing for new players...
Also, you don't need to know the details of standard deviations to understand whether you are above or below par when given a number. In fact, it doesn't even have to be SDs, it can be something more familiar like percentiles.

[Pierconium]

That would be extremely confusing for new players.

And also for anyone who is not used to using "standard deviations" in day to day life.

Everything is confusing for new players...
Also, you don't need to know the details of standard deviations to understand whether you are above or below par when given a number. In fact, it doesn't even have to be SDs, it can be something more familiar like percentiles.

How is that advantageous over the current system?

The creation of multiple levels below Minnow will not necessarily solve the issue longterm. What happens six months from now when 95% of TNP (or another GCR) are Guppies? Do we then decide to further devolve the list?

[Zemnaya Svoboda]

Everything is confusing for new players...
Also, you don't need to know the details of standard deviations to understand whether you are above or below par when given a number. In fact, it doesn't even have to be SDs, it can be something more familiar like percentiles.

How is that advantageous over the current system?

The creation of multiple levels below Minnow will not necessarily solve the issue longterm. What happens six months from now when 95% of TNP (or another GCR) are Guppies? Do we then decide to further devolve the list?

If 95% are Guppies then 300 are not. That would be far more variety in influence ranks than The North Pacific has ever seen.

[Pierconium]

How is that advantageous over the current system?

The creation of multiple levels below Minnow will not necessarily solve the issue longterm. What happens six months from now when 95% of TNP (or another GCR) are Guppies? Do we then decide to further devolve the list?

If 95% are Guppies then 300 are not. That would be far more variety in influence ranks than The North Pacific has ever seen.

Then 99.99%, whatever. My point remains regardless of pedantic arguments over the percentages. The percentage distribution of Influence in TNP (for example) will not be substantially changed by adding another level to the nomenclature. TNP decided that they wanted to have every nation possible join the WA and then have every nation swap as much as possible (of course still within the offsite governments mandated limits) so this is the end result, lots of nations with relatively high SPDR numbers but still generally at the same level as the bulk of the rest of the WA nations.

[Ballotonia]

Adding extra levels below Minnow (or between Minnow and Vassal) is easy. I'm willing to do that, as long as there's a good idea of what the names should be.

Rescaling the influence rankings based on the highest-influence nation doesn't strike me as a good idea. Some nations would end up with Superpower raking without being even close to an actual superpower. Living in vast region with lots of nations means one ends up having to share influence with all of them. That's the natural downside of living in such a gargantuan region.

Ballotonia

Here's a bunch for your consideration:

1. Nipper/Hatchling
2. Minnow
3. Page
4. Apprentice/Squire
5. Vassal

Thanks for the suggestion! No suggestions by others?

Ballotonia