However, off the bat, this sounds like a tool for spamming. So, I'm wondering if this type of thing is allowed.
by Glen-Rhodes » Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:47 pm
by Linux and the X » Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:55 pm
by Glen-Rhodes » Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:55 pm
Klaus Devestatorie wrote:It's banned.
by Flibbleites » Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:21 pm
by Fit battion » Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:22 am
by Glen-Rhodes » Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:08 am
Flibbleites wrote:Read the Script rules.
by Linux and the X » Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:28 am
by Kandarin » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:36 am
Glen-Rhodes wrote:Flibbleites wrote:Read the Script rules.
Alright, thanks. According to that, what I want to do is allowed. The only thing I can see is the 'unsolicited telegrams' thing, which I'm assuming would mean not sending TGs to delegates that say "Don't send proposal approval TGs".
I wish I remember who wrote:Games like Nationstates are like a big cardboard box, and there are two kinds of people in the world. The kind who look at the empty void inside the box and ask "Where the hell is it?" and the kind who jump into the box with their friends and make it into a fort, or a spaceship.
by Glen-Rhodes » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:40 am
Kandarin wrote:I'd always interpreted it "no unsolicited telegrams" as "Don't send telegrams to people who didn't specifically say they want telegrams", i.e. a broad ban on auto-recruitment telegrams, auto-mass-campaigning telegrams, and pretty much any auto-telegram that isn't specifically to your actual friends and allies.
by Kandarin » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:43 am
Glen-Rhodes wrote:Kandarin wrote:I'd always interpreted it "no unsolicited telegrams" as "Don't send telegrams to people who didn't specifically say they want telegrams", i.e. a broad ban on auto-recruitment telegrams, auto-mass-campaigning telegrams, and pretty much any auto-telegram that isn't specifically to your actual friends and allies.
Doesn't that conflict with what WA people do when trying to get a proposal to quorum? The rule for that is to not send telegrams to delegates who have explicitly stated that they don't want those types of telegrams.
I wish I remember who wrote:Games like Nationstates are like a big cardboard box, and there are two kinds of people in the world. The kind who look at the empty void inside the box and ask "Where the hell is it?" and the kind who jump into the box with their friends and make it into a fort, or a spaceship.
by Ananke » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:46 am
Glen-Rhodes wrote:The way I see it, there's really no substantive difference between manually sending a telegram and having a Javascript program do it for you, especially when that program is simply manipulating the browser. The server probably couldn't even tell the difference.
by Glen-Rhodes » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:56 am
Ananke wrote:But wouldn't that open the way for using scripts to automatically send recruitment tgs to all newly founded nations as well? Not something I'd like to see happen. At least the way it is now anyone wanted to tg a lot of nations has to actually spend time doing it manually.
Kandarin wrote:There's a difference between banning unsolicited telegrams and banning people from using scripts that send unsolicited telegrams, and server issues are only the tip of the iceberg of why banning the latter is a good idea.
by Kandarin » Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:01 pm
Kandarin wrote:There's a difference between banning unsolicited telegrams and banning people from using scripts that send unsolicited telegrams, and server issues are only the tip of the iceberg of why banning the latter is a good idea.
The way this Javascript program works is that it uses a pre-defined array of nations, loads their nation page, fills in the telegram box, presses 'Send!', waits 15 seconds (or however long the spam timer is), and then repeats the process until it's gone through the entire array. It's essentially the same thing seasoned WA campaigners do, even down to the 15 seconds. (Usually, I sit on a page and repeatedly click the 'send' button until it goes through, then immediately switch over to my next tab and repeat the process.) So, there is no difference, in terms of server use, between manually doing a TG campaign and having a Javascript program do it.
I wish I remember who wrote:Games like Nationstates are like a big cardboard box, and there are two kinds of people in the world. The kind who look at the empty void inside the box and ask "Where the hell is it?" and the kind who jump into the box with their friends and make it into a fort, or a spaceship.
by Glen-Rhodes » Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:18 pm
Kandarin wrote:It's not about server use. Server use isn't the half of it. Having a program do it means you don't have to do work, which means that people who know how to write Greasemonkey scripts will have an unbelievable advantage over those who don't in recruiting, WA campaigning, and endogathering. Everyone else might as well not bother with the effort it takes to do these things since scripters will just be able to load a list and press a button and get far better results.
I don't know if you're thinking that people who don't know how to write Greasemonkey scripts shouldn't be playing the game or what, but it seems to me like it would be awfully callous to tell those who don't that they have to be able to in order to play the game. I'd thought we were a more welcoming game than that.
by Kandarin » Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:35 pm
Glen-Rhodes wrote:So it shouldn't be allowed, because it's not fair? That doesn't make any sense. If a recruiter, WA campaigner, etc. knows how to utilize web automation programs (which are very simple to use), and doesn't (a) spam or (b) get around spam timers, they shouldn't be prevented from doing so just because some people don't bother to learn how to do it themselves.
'Endogathering' follows the same logic as WA TG campaigning: either manually or automated, it takes the same amount of time for a seasoned person to do it. You likely would never be able to tell the difference.
I wish I remember who wrote:Games like Nationstates are like a big cardboard box, and there are two kinds of people in the world. The kind who look at the empty void inside the box and ask "Where the hell is it?" and the kind who jump into the box with their friends and make it into a fort, or a spaceship.
by Fit battion » Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:39 pm
Kandarin wrote:Kandarin wrote:There's a difference between banning unsolicited telegrams and banning people from using scripts that send unsolicited telegrams, and server issues are only the tip of the iceberg of why banning the latter is a good idea.
The way this Javascript program works is that it uses a pre-defined array of nations, loads their nation page, fills in the telegram box, presses 'Send!', waits 15 seconds (or however long the spam timer is), and then repeats the process until it's gone through the entire array. It's essentially the same thing seasoned WA campaigners do, even down to the 15 seconds. (Usually, I sit on a page and repeatedly click the 'send' button until it goes through, then immediately switch over to my next tab and repeat the process.) So, there is no difference, in terms of server use, between manually doing a TG campaign and having a Javascript program do it.
It's not about server use. Server use isn't the half of it. Having a program do it means you don't have to do work, which means that people who know how to write Greasemonkey scripts will have an unbelievable advantage over those who don't in recruiting, WA campaigning, and endogathering. Everyone else might as well not bother with the effort it takes to do these things since scripters will just be able to load a list and press a button and get far better results. I don't know if you're thinking that people who don't know how to write Greasemonkey scripts shouldn't be playing the game or what, but it seems to me like it would be awfully callous to tell those who don't that they have to be able to in order to play the game. I'd thought we were a more welcoming game than that.
by Linux and the X » Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:44 pm
Kandarin wrote:We all have limited amounts of time to spend on this game, and allowing people to just press a button and get that over with would free up huge amounts of time and give those elite few a huge advantage over the rest of us.
by Topid » Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:48 pm
Glen-Rhodes wrote:Kandarin wrote:It's not about server use. Server use isn't the half of it. Having a program do it means you don't have to do work, which means that people who know how to write Greasemonkey scripts will have an unbelievable advantage over those who don't in recruiting, WA campaigning, and endogathering. Everyone else might as well not bother with the effort it takes to do these things since scripters will just be able to load a list and press a button and get far better results.
Unibot, for example, has spent time recording the voting and approval habits of various delegates. He uses that data for targeted campaigns, and is pretty successful at it. He's used his intellect to get ahead of everyone else. I don't know how to put together all that data into a readable targeting guide. Should we ban what Unibot does, because it makes getting a proposal to quorum easier, but it's not something that everybody can do without learning how? No, I don't we should.
Linux and the X wrote:Kandarin wrote:We all have limited amounts of time to spend on this game, and allowing people to just press a button and get that over with would free up huge amounts of time and give those elite few a huge advantage over the rest of us.
"Elite few"? We're not talking about nuclear science here. It's script programming. This does not take long to learn (hell, I learned enough PHP to make a functioning website in about two hours!).
by Glen-Rhodes » Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:52 pm
Kandarin wrote:Anyone who could do those things automatically would have a massive advantage over the rest of us who "didn't bother" to learn script programming, and the game would swiftly become a game of who can write the best scripts, which would pretty much be game over for the 99% of players who don't have those skills.
Kandarin wrote:I know how endogathering works. It takes considerable time to do manually, even with software that pulls up names (I don't have that, but know those who do). We all have limited amounts of time to spend on this game, and allowing people to just press a button and get that over with would free up huge amounts of time and give those elite few a huge advantage over the rest of us.
by Glen-Rhodes » Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:54 pm
Topid wrote:Different.
Topid wrote:Care to share your website? Lol, I've tried to learn several times before...
by Topid » Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:07 pm
Glen-Rhodes wrote:Kandarin wrote:Anyone who could do those things automatically would have a massive advantage over the rest of us who "didn't bother" to learn script programming, and the game would swiftly become a game of who can write the best scripts, which would pretty much be game over for the 99% of players who don't have those skills.
Where's the advantage? The spam timer pretty much equalizes everybody. It still takes me the same 10 minutes to send telegrams to everybody in my region. The only advantage is that I'm able to to do other things, like work on my homework or clean my kitchen, while the telegrams are sending. If the web automation addons were able to skip the spam timer, then I think it would be an unfair advantage. But they're not.
by Glen-Rhodes » Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:14 pm
Topid wrote:Say you can only be on NS 10 minutes a day though before you need to do homework...
Someone with a script can get to play the game and do 10 minutes of whatever AND start the automated process of telegraming while their homework. Everyone else who doesn't have that ability only gets to play for 10 minutes, and would have to spend all that time telegraming, and gets nothing else done.
Not to mention that most of us probably have more than one computer, so could tell the telegram program to run on one and then play normally on the other.
by Kalibarr » Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:21 pm
Glen-Rhodes wrote:Topid wrote:Say you can only be on NS 10 minutes a day though before you need to do homework...
Someone with a script can get to play the game and do 10 minutes of whatever AND start the automated process of telegraming while their homework. Everyone else who doesn't have that ability only gets to play for 10 minutes, and would have to spend all that time telegraming, and gets nothing else done.
Not to mention that most of us probably have more than one computer, so could tell the telegram program to run on one and then play normally on the other.
So? That person should go learn how the other guy can have the best of both worlds. Some people target who they send TGs to, and some people target which regions they recruit from, to maximize their success, all from data that they collected using their own intellect. Those people have cut down on the amount of time they spend sending telegrams, while still maintaining a decent level of return.
This guy used his intellect to learn some Javascript and write a web automation script, cutting down on the amount of time he has to spend sending TGs, while still maintaining a decent level of return. So, both have used their intellect to get ahead. Yet, the programmer is penalized because, somehow, making life easier via technology is evil, but making life easier via analytics is fine.
by Ananke » Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:25 pm
Fit battion wrote:Like I've said, there's already one for recruiting.
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