Use of Javascript to automate TGs

[Glen-Rhodes]

I am thinking about creating a Greasemonkey Chickenfoot script (javascript) that goes through an array of nations and automatically sends a telegram. I'd end up using it for things like send TGs to the nations in my region. It conforms to whatever the TG time limit is.

However, off the bat, this sounds like a tool for spamming. So, I'm wondering if this type of thing is allowed.

[Klaus Devestatorie]

It's banned.

[Linux and the X]

I don't see anything in the rules specifically banning it, and if you made it go the same speed as you would it wouldn't be possible to notice.

[Glen-Rhodes]

It's banned.

I looked in the FAQ, to see if there was any mention of automatic scripts, but couldn't find anything. So, I wasn't unsure. Do you know where this ban is written?

Personally, I don't see why such a thing would be banned. It's simply automating what, for example, people in the WA do all the time. (That is, sending massive amounts of telegrams to get a proposal to quorum.)

[Flibbleites]

Read the Script rules.

[Fit battion]

There's already which does one similiar although I think it just pulls up all the nations created and automatically sends them messages.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Read the Script rules.

Alright, thanks. According to that, what I want to do is allowed. The only thing I can see is the 'unsolicited telegrams' thing, which I'm assuming would mean not sending TGs to delegates that say "Don't send proposal approval TGs".

But I think those might be for server-side scripts. Greasemonkey only deals with client-side JavaScript.

[Linux and the X]

To be safe, just make it a regional rule that region members automatically accept scripted telegrams.

[Kandarin]

Read the Script rules.

Alright, thanks. According to that, what I want to do is allowed. The only thing I can see is the 'unsolicited telegrams' thing, which I'm assuming would mean not sending TGs to delegates that say "Don't send proposal approval TGs".

I'd always interpreted it "no unsolicited telegrams" as "Don't send telegrams to people who didn't specifically say they want telegrams", i.e. a broad ban on auto-recruitment telegrams, auto-mass-campaigning telegrams, and pretty much any auto-telegram that isn't specifically to your actual friends and allies.

[Glen-Rhodes]

I'd always interpreted it "no unsolicited telegrams" as "Don't send telegrams to people who didn't specifically say they want telegrams", i.e. a broad ban on auto-recruitment telegrams, auto-mass-campaigning telegrams, and pretty much any auto-telegram that isn't specifically to your actual friends and allies.

Doesn't that conflict with what WA people do when trying to get a proposal to quorum? The rule for that is to not send telegrams to delegates who have explicitly stated that they don't want those types of telegrams.

The way I see it, there's really no substantive difference between manually sending a telegram and having a Javascript program do it for you, especially when that program is simply manipulating the browser. The server probably couldn't even tell the difference.

[Kandarin]

I'd always interpreted it "no unsolicited telegrams" as "Don't send telegrams to people who didn't specifically say they want telegrams", i.e. a broad ban on auto-recruitment telegrams, auto-mass-campaigning telegrams, and pretty much any auto-telegram that isn't specifically to your actual friends and allies.

Doesn't that conflict with what WA people do when trying to get a proposal to quorum? The rule for that is to not send telegrams to delegates who have explicitly stated that they don't want those types of telegrams.

There's a difference between banning unsolicited telegrams and banning people from using scripts that send unsolicited telegrams, and server issues are only the tip of the iceberg of why banning the latter is a good idea.

[Ananke]

The way I see it, there's really no substantive difference between manually sending a telegram and having a Javascript program do it for you, especially when that program is simply manipulating the browser. The server probably couldn't even tell the difference.

But wouldn't that open the way for using scripts to automatically send recruitment tgs to all newly founded nations as well? Not something I'd like to see happen. At least the way it is now anyone wanted to tg a lot of nations has to actually spend time doing it manually.

[Glen-Rhodes]

But wouldn't that open the way for using scripts to automatically send recruitment tgs to all newly founded nations as well? Not something I'd like to see happen. At least the way it is now anyone wanted to tg a lot of nations has to actually spend time doing it manually.

No. To automatically send TGs to newly founded nations, you would have to grab some feed from the server. As far as I can tell, there is no feed for that. This type of automation is only useful for a static list, not a dynamic one.

There's a difference between banning unsolicited telegrams and banning people from using scripts that send unsolicited telegrams, and server issues are only the tip of the iceberg of why banning the latter is a good idea.

The way this Javascript program works is that it uses a pre-defined array of nations, loads their nation page, fills in the telegram box, presses 'Send!', waits 15 seconds (or however long the spam timer is), and then repeats the process until it's gone through the entire array. It's essentially the same thing seasoned WA campaigners do, even down to the 15 seconds. (Usually, I sit on a page and repeatedly click the 'send' button until it goes through, then immediately switch over to my next tab and repeat the process.)

So, there is no difference, in terms of server use, between manually doing a TG campaign and having a Javascript program do it. It might actually even use less resources, since the server isn't repeatedly checking if I've waited 15 second before sending another telegram.

[Kandarin]

There's a difference between banning unsolicited telegrams and banning people from using scripts that send unsolicited telegrams, and server issues are only the tip of the iceberg of why banning the latter is a good idea.

The way this Javascript program works is that it uses a pre-defined array of nations, loads their nation page, fills in the telegram box, presses 'Send!', waits 15 seconds (or however long the spam timer is), and then repeats the process until it's gone through the entire array. It's essentially the same thing seasoned WA campaigners do, even down to the 15 seconds. (Usually, I sit on a page and repeatedly click the 'send' button until it goes through, then immediately switch over to my next tab and repeat the process.) So, there is no difference, in terms of server use, between manually doing a TG campaign and having a Javascript program do it.

It's not about server use. Server use isn't the half of it. Having a program do it means you don't have to do work, which means that people who know how to write Greasemonkey scripts will have an unbelievable advantage over those who don't in recruiting, WA campaigning, and endogathering. Everyone else might as well not bother with the effort it takes to do these things since scripters will just be able to load a list and press a button and get far better results. I don't know if you're thinking that people who don't know how to write Greasemonkey scripts shouldn't be playing the game or what, but it seems to me like it would be awfully callous to tell those who don't that they have to be able to in order to play the game. I'd thought we were a more welcoming game than that.

[Glen-Rhodes]

It's not about server use. Server use isn't the half of it. Having a program do it means you don't have to do work, which means that people who know how to write Greasemonkey scripts will have an unbelievable advantage over those who don't in recruiting, WA campaigning, and endogathering. Everyone else might as well not bother with the effort it takes to do these things since scripters will just be able to load a list and press a button and get far better results.

So it shouldn't be allowed, because it's not fair? That doesn't make any sense. If a recruiter, WA campaigner, etc. knows how to utilize web automation programs (which are very simple to use), and doesn't (a) spam or (b) get around spam timers, they shouldn't be prevented from doing so just because some people don't bother to learn how to do it themselves.

Unibot, for example, has spent time recording the voting and approval habits of various delegates. He uses that data for targeted campaigns, and is pretty successful at it. He's used his intellect to get ahead of everyone else. I don't know how to put together all that data into a readable targeting guide. Should we ban what Unibot does, because it makes getting a proposal to quorum easier, but it's not something that everybody can do without learning how? No, I don't we should.

I don't know if you're thinking that people who don't know how to write Greasemonkey scripts shouldn't be playing the game or what, but it seems to me like it would be awfully callous to tell those who don't that they have to be able to in order to play the game. I'd thought we were a more welcoming game than that.

That's really a stretch, Kandarin. Recruiting isn't feasible with web automation addons. There's no feed for newly founded nations. 'Endogathering' follows the same logic as WA TG campaigning: either manually or automated, it takes the same amount of time for a seasoned person to do it. You likely would never be able to tell the difference. The only difference is saving my hands from carpal tunnel syndrome, when I want to send the WA members in my region a reminder about votes, endos, etc.

[Kandarin]

So it shouldn't be allowed, because it's not fair? That doesn't make any sense. If a recruiter, WA campaigner, etc. knows how to utilize web automation programs (which are very simple to use), and doesn't (a) spam or (b) get around spam timers, they shouldn't be prevented from doing so just because some people don't bother to learn how to do it themselves.

The commentary of someone who enforces this stuff would be much overdue in this thread, but that seems to be the core argument throughout the script rules as they stand: You can't post RMB ads automatically; gotta do that by hand. You can't eject anyone who comes into your region right before the update automatically; gotta stay up and watch for those defenders or invaders yourself, or find someone who can. You can't endorse everyone in that feeder you want to take with the push of a button; gotta do that yourself. Anyone who could do those things automatically would have a massive advantage over the rest of us who "didn't bother" to learn script programming, and the game would swiftly become a game of who can write the best scripts, which would pretty much be game over for the 99% of players who don't have those skills. There's got to be a reason for those limitations besides the increase in server hits that some of those things would have over someone doing it manually.

'Endogathering' follows the same logic as WA TG campaigning: either manually or automated, it takes the same amount of time for a seasoned person to do it. You likely would never be able to tell the difference.

I know how endogathering works. It takes considerable time to do manually, even with software that pulls up names (I don't have that, but know those who do). We all have limited amounts of time to spend on this game, and allowing people to just press a button and get that over with would free up huge amounts of time and give those elite few a huge advantage over the rest of us.

[Fit battion]

There's a difference between banning unsolicited telegrams and banning people from using scripts that send unsolicited telegrams, and server issues are only the tip of the iceberg of why banning the latter is a good idea.

The way this Javascript program works is that it uses a pre-defined array of nations, loads their nation page, fills in the telegram box, presses 'Send!', waits 15 seconds (or however long the spam timer is), and then repeats the process until it's gone through the entire array. It's essentially the same thing seasoned WA campaigners do, even down to the 15 seconds. (Usually, I sit on a page and repeatedly click the 'send' button until it goes through, then immediately switch over to my next tab and repeat the process.) So, there is no difference, in terms of server use, between manually doing a TG campaign and having a Javascript program do it.

It's not about server use. Server use isn't the half of it. Having a program do it means you don't have to do work, which means that people who know how to write Greasemonkey scripts will have an unbelievable advantage over those who don't in recruiting, WA campaigning, and endogathering. Everyone else might as well not bother with the effort it takes to do these things since scripters will just be able to load a list and press a button and get far better results. I don't know if you're thinking that people who don't know how to write Greasemonkey scripts shouldn't be playing the game or what, but it seems to me like it would be awfully callous to tell those who don't that they have to be able to in order to play the game. I'd thought we were a more welcoming game than that.

Like I've said, there's already one for recruiting.

[Linux and the X]

We all have limited amounts of time to spend on this game, and allowing people to just press a button and get that over with would free up huge amounts of time and give those elite few a huge advantage over the rest of us.

"Elite few"? We're not talking about nuclear science here. It's script programming. This does not take long to learn (hell, I learned enough PHP to make a functioning website in about two hours!).

[Topid]

It's not about server use. Server use isn't the half of it. Having a program do it means you don't have to do work, which means that people who know how to write Greasemonkey scripts will have an unbelievable advantage over those who don't in recruiting, WA campaigning, and endogathering. Everyone else might as well not bother with the effort it takes to do these things since scripters will just be able to load a list and press a button and get far better results.

Unibot, for example, has spent time recording the voting and approval habits of various delegates. He uses that data for targeted campaigns, and is pretty successful at it. He's used his intellect to get ahead of everyone else. I don't know how to put together all that data into a readable targeting guide. Should we ban what Unibot does, because it makes getting a proposal to quorum easier, but it's not something that everybody can do without learning how? No, I don't we should.

Different.

I'm with Kandy.

We all have limited amounts of time to spend on this game, and allowing people to just press a button and get that over with would free up huge amounts of time and give those elite few a huge advantage over the rest of us.

"Elite few"? We're not talking about nuclear science here. It's script programming. This does not take long to learn (hell, I learned enough PHP to make a functioning website in about two hours!).

Care to share your website? Lol, I've tried to learn several times before...

[Glen-Rhodes]

Anyone who could do those things automatically would have a massive advantage over the rest of us who "didn't bother" to learn script programming, and the game would swiftly become a game of who can write the best scripts, which would pretty much be game over for the 99% of players who don't have those skills.

Where's the advantage? The spam timer pretty much equalizes everybody. It still takes me the same 10 minutes to send telegrams to everybody in my region. The only advantage is that I'm able to to do other things, like work on my homework or clean my kitchen, while the telegrams are sending. If the web automation addons were able to skip the spam timer, then I think it would be an unfair advantage. But they're not.

I know how endogathering works. It takes considerable time to do manually, even with software that pulls up names (I don't have that, but know those who do). We all have limited amounts of time to spend on this game, and allowing people to just press a button and get that over with would free up huge amounts of time and give those elite few a huge advantage over the rest of us.

When I TG my region, I open nations up in tabs. Then, I paste the content into the TG box, press send. I go to the next tab, do the same thing. When the spam timer pops up, I just keep pressing the send button until it goes through. (I have a Greasemonkey script that saves the text in textareas, so I don't even have to keep pasting the TG in.) Then I repeat. It takes about 10 minutes to get through all of my region manually. I just used the JavaScript program that automates that process. It took the same amount of time.

Your argument is that the rules should force everybody to be of the same intelligence. If everybody can't do something, nobody should be able to. That's just plain silly.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Different.

That doesn't make it different at all. I spent time figuring out Chickenfoot (which is the most user-friendly application, that if you can figure it out in under 5 minutes, you're not really trying). I spent time learning loops and arrays in JavaScript. I spent time collecting nation names and formatting them correctly.

Care to share your website? Lol, I've tried to learn several times before...

http://groups.csail.mit.edu/uid/chickenfoot/
http://groups.csail.mit.edu/uid/chickenfoot/api.html
http://groups.csail.mit.edu/uid/chicken ... start.html
http://www.w3schools.com/JS/

[Topid]

Thanks for the links. Will be looking into that.

Anyone who could do those things automatically would have a massive advantage over the rest of us who "didn't bother" to learn script programming, and the game would swiftly become a game of who can write the best scripts, which would pretty much be game over for the 99% of players who don't have those skills.

Where's the advantage? The spam timer pretty much equalizes everybody. It still takes me the same 10 minutes to send telegrams to everybody in my region. The only advantage is that I'm able to to do other things, like work on my homework or clean my kitchen, while the telegrams are sending. If the web automation addons were able to skip the spam timer, then I think it would be an unfair advantage. But they're not.

Say you can only be on NS 10 minutes a day before you need to do homework...
Someone with a script can get to play the game and do 10 minutes of whatever AND start the automated process of telegraming while their homework. Everyone else who doesn't have that ability only gets to play for 10 minutes, and would have to spend all that time telegraming, and gets nothing else done.

Not to mention that most of us probably have more than one computer, so could tell the telegram program to run on one and then play normally on the other.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Say you can only be on NS 10 minutes a day though before you need to do homework...

Someone with a script can get to play the game and do 10 minutes of whatever AND start the automated process of telegraming while their homework. Everyone else who doesn't have that ability only gets to play for 10 minutes, and would have to spend all that time telegraming, and gets nothing else done.

Not to mention that most of us probably have more than one computer, so could tell the telegram program to run on one and then play normally on the other.

So? That person should go learn how the other guy can have the best of both worlds. Some people target who they send TGs to, and some people target which regions they recruit from, to maximize their success, all from data that they collected using their own intellect. Those people have cut down on the amount of time they spend sending telegrams, while still maintaining a decent level of return.

This guy used his intellect to learn some Javascript and write a web automation script, cutting down on the amount of time he has to spend sending TGs, while still maintaining a decent level of return. So, both have used their intellect to get ahead. Yet, the programmer is penalized because, somehow, making life easier via technology is evil, but making life easier via analytics is fine.

[Kalibarr]

Say you can only be on NS 10 minutes a day though before you need to do homework...

Someone with a script can get to play the game and do 10 minutes of whatever AND start the automated process of telegraming while their homework. Everyone else who doesn't have that ability only gets to play for 10 minutes, and would have to spend all that time telegraming, and gets nothing else done.

Not to mention that most of us probably have more than one computer, so could tell the telegram program to run on one and then play normally on the other.

So? That person should go learn how the other guy can have the best of both worlds. Some people target who they send TGs to, and some people target which regions they recruit from, to maximize their success, all from data that they collected using their own intellect. Those people have cut down on the amount of time they spend sending telegrams, while still maintaining a decent level of return.

This guy used his intellect to learn some Javascript and write a web automation script, cutting down on the amount of time he has to spend sending TGs, while still maintaining a decent level of return. So, both have used their intellect to get ahead. Yet, the programmer is penalized because, somehow, making life easier via technology is evil, but making life easier via analytics is fine.

I for one don't have the time to learn. Basically your saying you should be able to because your somehow smarter than the rest of us. I don't want people who didn't have to do any work to have an unfair advantage over someone who spent hours recruiting or lobbying delegates.

[Ananke]

Like I've said, there's already one for recruiting.

I've heard of people using tools like that, but it's always been my clear impression that this is against the rules and that people caught using recruitment scripts, which automatically send tgs to new nations get in trouble with the mods.