Refactoring (was: Refactor preview)

[Bears Armed]

No, and that's on purpose. Revealing specifics about changes would lead to technical stat-wanking in the only significant game-managed area, issues. We prefer for the Law of Unintended Consequences to have a certain air of mystery.

I can understand your point here, but until the Banners were released, I had no idea that my nation was made up of "Self Governing Regions" (The banner, "Perched")... How do I, the person who owns and operates this particular nation as a Unitary state, not even realise I had split up into autonomous regions? That genuinely seems like something I outta know about right away!

Issue #111, option 1?

[Jute]

I can understand your point here, but until the Banners were released, I had no idea that my nation was made up of "Self Governing Regions" (The banner, "Perched")... How do I, the person who owns and operates this particular nation as a Unitary state, not even realise I had split up into autonomous regions? That genuinely seems like something I outta know about right away!

Issue #111, option 1?

Darn, I wish I would get that issue sometime. Might have had it once already, but that must have been a long time ago already.

[Sunset]

Since we've come around to the WA census...

Sunset is ranked 3rd in The Vast and 158th in the world for Most Godforsaken, with 694 Dawkins...

...Or...

The hard-nosed, hard-working, democratic, cheerful, devout population...

I'm going to conclude, putting all rational evidence aside, that the WA follows a small, secret sect of [violet] and has secretly declared that all other religions are made up of godless heretics who must burn, burn, burn! They even use the wrong (real) pantone colour to denote her name. And they are British.

[Golgothastan]

Since we've come around to the WA census...

Sunset is ranked 3rd in The Vast and 158th in the world for Most Godforsaken, with 694 Dawkins...

...Or...

The hard-nosed, hard-working, democratic, cheerful, devout population...

I'm going to conclude, putting all rational evidence aside, that the WA follows a small, secret sect of [violet] and has secretly declared that all other religions are made up of godless heretics who must burn, burn, burn! They even use the wrong (real) pantone colour to denote her name. And they are British.

I'm curious about that too. Since refactoring, Golgothastan has been "devout", while being ranked in the top 1% of the world for most godforsaken and having no religion spending. So what is the "devoutness" measuring?

[Her-topia]

bows
I was not in here for the old system so don't have a clue how my answers would have built me up. But I do know that some of my answers have led me into a position I had not intended and is counterintuitive to what I have put in my factbook. Part of the issue seems to be that the program doesn't consider the possibility that the govt may in fact outsource the jobs but keep a system of inspectors of these private companies. In that concept there would be far fewer govt owned companies than there are now. That's what it would be in the real world. Had you considered this?

[Undivulged Principles]

I have noticed a rather odd fluctuation in the business subsidation rankings. There are a number of nations that have terrible economies that somehow rank atop this particular ranking. It's hard to imagine these nations offering any sort of corporate welfare, much less leading the game in this ranking.

Is the business subsidation rating based on proportionate spending now? I am having a hard time understanding how a nation with an imploded economy is ranked 7th in Nationstates in business subsidation (h2so4). This is also a nation that is consistently amongst the bottom dwelling nations in every economic category.

That's unless they happen to have the single most corrupt and inefficient government that could possibly be conceived. Another option is perhaps you didn't think you could ruin a stat more than you have public transportation. If its the second option you win a cookie.

Seriously, I'm guessing you made business subsidation dependant on government size or something. Because that makes sense in looking over the rankings though it makes absolutely no sense in game terms.

[Sunset]

Taking a look at the analysis, they actually -do- have a very corrupt government. But here's another kicker, and someone with more knowledge feel free to correct me here, but since not all WA rankings have been re-run since the re-factoring, we don't yet know how every 'secondary' ranking will shake out. It is possible that anything that depends on a permutation of basic data - IE X + Y x Z - and (if there is such a thing) permutations of *that* data won't be updated until every ranking and rating has been re-run. Possibly multiple times.

For the next... Year... this could lead to some very odd results as the pachinko ball bounces around in the machine and trips random ratings. To me, that is just NS being NS. It has always been a virtual land of extremes.

[Undivulged Principles]

Taking a look at the analysis, they actually -do- have a very corrupt government. But here's another kicker, and someone with more knowledge feel free to correct me here, but since not all WA rankings have been re-run since the re-factoring, we don't yet know how every 'secondary' ranking will shake out. It is possible that anything that depends on a permutation of basic data - IE X + Y x Z - and (if there is such a thing) permutations of *that* data won't be updated until every ranking and rating has been re-run. Possibly multiple times.

For the next... Year... this could lead to some very odd results as the pachinko ball bounces around in the machine and trips random ratings. To me, that is just NS being NS. It has always been a virtual land of extremes.

I'd like to hope that's the case but I get the sneaky suspicion it isn't. I probably should have looked at my puppet first (liberal liberals). This nation gets no corporate welfare. It is highly restrictive and I continually answer the issues to that effect. It was about 30th from the bottom in business subsidation last time around. Now it is 106th in world. There is no logical explanation that a nation that doesn't dole out corporate welfare should be amongst the leaders of corporate welfare contributions. No education budget is going to equal the amount of the economic giants spend.

H2SO4 might be corrupt but it isn't close to the top nations. And many of them actually have economies. Even if they were the most corrupt government ever, they actually would need money thats actually worth something in order to steal it. Imploded economies aren't noted for their vibrant investment banking sectors. Besides my puppet with the imploded economy isn't corrupt at all.

[[violet]]

MY NATION, TOTALLY RUINED BY REFACTORING! Did you say that most nations only would be "a little" affected?

Yes, and some nations would be dramatically affected. You are one of those lucky ones, since you have a history of strongly opposing general government spending but supporting targeted government spending, which is fairly unusual.

You have answered 11 issues in the last five weeks, and, depending on which issues you get, it may well take longer than that to rebalance the way you want it. However, note that if you just continue cutting general government spending and increasing targeted government spending, you aren't really going anywhere quickly, as one tends to counteract the other.

The fastest way to get back to where you were on the Government Expenditure graph would be to start supporting more generalized public spending programs.

Although I should point out that refactoring only affected that pie chart: your nation was always considered to be this way according to most other areas of the game. So although your nation looks dramatically different in that chart, it hasn't changed much internally.

[[violet]]

I'm curious about that too. Since refactoring, Golgothastan has been "devout", while being ranked in the top 1% of the world for most godforsaken and having no religion spending. So what is the "devoutness" measuring?

Nothing very sensible, imho. It is currently biased towards nations with large governments and non-zero Spirituality spending. I think it needs to become a relative measure, so that the most devout nation in the world is one where 100% of GDP is coming from Spirituality, regardless of how much that is in absolute terms.

[Golgothastan]

I'm curious about that too. Since refactoring, Golgothastan has been "devout", while being ranked in the top 1% of the world for most godforsaken and having no religion spending. So what is the "devoutness" measuring?

Nothing very sensible, imho. It is currently biased towards nations with large governments and non-zero Spirituality spending.

Golgothastan's government is only medium-sized and I can't remember ever choosing a pro-Spirituality option, but I suppose one may have snuck through at some point.

I think it needs to become a relative measure, so that the most devout nation in the world is one where 100% of GDP is coming from Spirituality, regardless of how much that is in absolute terms.

Not sure about "GDP", but I do agree it should reflect proportion of government spending.

[Bears Armed]

Not sure about "GDP", but I do agree it should reflect proportion of government spending.

Why? Devoutness is a function of the peoples' viewpoint, and although that might influence government spending on religious matters it's also possible that sufficiently devout people would be funding religion perfectly well through more direct means anyway so that little or no government spending at all would actually be needed. Why should [for example] Bears Armed have to sacrifice its long-term (and established in RP as constitutional) 'small government' policies in order to regain its former ranking in this field (which pre-refactoring = top 05% in the world, but post-refactoring = bottom 10%...)?!?
After all, if we can have a 'Most Beautiful Environment' ranking that differs quite significantly from the 'Most Pro-Environment Government' one -- as we do -- then why not also a 'Most Devout' ranking that could differ quite significantly from the [potentially calculated, on the basis of official spending priorities, even if not actually quoted anywhere] 'Most Pro-Religion Government' one?

Latest Edit: one minor grammatical correction that didn't change the meaning at all.

[Jute]

Not sure about "GDP", but I do agree it should reflect proportion of government spending.

Why? Devoutness is a function of the peoples' viewpoint, and although that might influence government spending on religious matters it's also possible that sufficiently devout people would be funding religion perfectly well through more direct means anyway that little or no government spending at all would actually be needed. Why should [for example] Bears Armed have to sacrifice its long-term (and established in RP as constitutional) 'small government' policies in order to regain its former ranking in this field (which pre-refactoring = top 05% in the world, but post-refactoring = bottom 10%...)?!?
After all, if we can have a 'Most Beautiful Environment' ranking that differs quite significantly from the 'Most Pro-Environment Government' one -- as we do -- then why not also a 'Most Devout' ranking that could differ quite significantly from the [potentially calculated, on the basis of official spending priorities, even if not actually quoted anywhere] 'Most Pro-Religion Government' one?

Agree with this.

[Planita]

I would like to now how I got a Black Market which is at 3.2%. I have a low crime rate and drug use so how is this possible?

[Golgothastan]

Not sure about "GDP", but I do agree it should reflect proportion of government spending.

Why? Devoutness is a function of the peoples' viewpoint, and although that might influence government spending on religious matters it's also possible that sufficiently devout people would be funding religion perfectly well through more direct means anyway so that little or no government spending at all would actually be needed.

That's why I said "reflect": I didn't mean that it should be the only factor, just that it should have more prominence than it does now.

Why should [for example] Bears Armed have to sacrifice its long-term (and established in RP as constitutional)

No. I'm not going to take your nation as an example, because you go on and on about how your nation's RP doesn't match the game mechanics all the time.

[Her-topia]

I would like to now how I got a Black Market which is at 3.2%. I have a low crime rate and drug use so how is this possible?

bows
our realm has a great social safety net beyond what the code recognizes in the fact book and yet people just started to die lost in the wilderness though it may be they got lost hiking... (Queen giggles)

[[violet]]

I would like to now how I got a Black Market which is at 3.2%. I have a low crime rate and drug use so how is this possible?

It's mainly because you have a fairly high level of corruption and high taxes.

[Bears Armed]

No. I'm not going to take your nation as an example, because you go on and on about how your nation's RP doesn't match the game mechanics all the time.

Okay, forget about taking my nation as an example (which is fair enough, I suppose, especially bearing in mind that this section of the forums already contains an admission by [violet] [in a discussion about the 'Leading Causes of Death' figures] that the system might not handle Ursine nations as effectively as it does Human ones...), let me re-phrase that:
For any nation was defined as having a high level of devoutness pre-refactoring and was RPed accordingly, but that the refactoring now says has a very low level of devoutness instead, what has actually changed within that nation IC to justify such a drastic change in ranking? If the only answer is "The way that the survey calculates things OOC has been changed", then wouldn't it be perfectly reasonable for that nation's player to RP that the Survey has changed its method of classification IC too but has actually made its reports on this particular aspect of things less accurate in the process so that IC the actual level of devoutness remains unchanged?

[Sunset]

From a Minty Green Jacket perspective, yes. It is absolutely reasonable to RP as though a change in the WA (New officials?) has resulted in the change in rankings. As long as these are being used for strictly RP purposes and not some kind of meta-Gameplay-side statistical face-off, then go ahead and RP how you want. As has been stated numerous times; On the RP side of things a nation's power or lack there-of isn't determined by gameplay statistics but by how accepting your roleplay partners are of your claims (or lack there-of) to phenomenal cosmic power.

That said, this thread is definitely for discussion of the gameplay and game engine side of things. For further discussion of RP vs GP statistics and their use, I would point to...

RPing Questions? Ask here!

[The Cobalt Sky]

I'm curious about that too. Since refactoring, Golgothastan has been "devout", while being ranked in the top 1% of the world for most godforsaken and having no religion spending. So what is the "devoutness" measuring?

Nothing very sensible, imho. It is currently biased towards nations with large governments and non-zero Spirituality spending. I think it needs to become a relative measure, so that the most devout nation in the world is one where 100% of GDP is coming from Spirituality, regardless of how much that is in absolute terms.

I think I ran into the same problem since I'm pretty sure my nation didn't start out as religious. I've also apparently got public floggings, which I don't remember allowing. I think it comes from the "More Police Needed" issue.

[Tupelope]

After answering issue 343, the income disparity ratio changed from 160 to 98.5 with the poor average being increased from about 17.4k to 24.7k and I cannot figure out why

[Lemmingtopias]

Not 100% sure if this is part of refactoring or not, but...

If average wage is the same number as GDP Per Capita (that right?)

And my average tax rate in 95%

Why is my government budget only 65% of GDP?

[Bears Armed]

After answering issue 343, the income disparity ratio changed from 160 to 98.5 with the poor average being increased from about 17.4k to 24.7k and I cannot figure out why

If you chose option #2, that mentions prices being slightly cheaper for the poor.

[Tupelope]

After answering issue 343, the income disparity ratio changed from 160 to 98.5 with the poor average being increased from about 17.4k to 24.7k and I cannot figure out why

If you chose option #2, that mentions prices being slightly cheaper for the poor.

I chose option #3

[[violet]]

After answering issue 343, the income disparity ratio changed from 160 to 98.5 with the poor average being increased from about 17.4k to 24.7k and I cannot figure out why

That issue didn't affect your income inequality. You answered it on 24-Feb.

For questions about issues that aren't related to refactoring, please use the Got Issues? forum.