Refactoring (was: Refactor preview)

[Sanctaria]

Interesting. I've checked and it does appear that your nation does not have child labour set as legal.

You do, however, have capital punishment legalised.

I see...

is it a glitch?

Also, is capital punishment legal by default or can it only be legal because at some point in the past I've answered an issue making it so?

I don't think it's a glitch, I think I know what went wrong, but I need to talk to a colleague about it first. I could just be reading it wrong.

[Sanctaria]

I see...

is it a glitch?

Also, is capital punishment legal by default or can it only be legal because at some point in the past I've answered an issue making it so?

I don't think it's a glitch, I think I know what went wrong, but I need to talk to a colleague about it first. I could just be reading it wrong.

Right, so, we had the descriptors on that mixed up, but hopefully we'll be able to get an admin to fix it at their next convenience.

[Infected Mushroom]

I don't think it's a glitch, I think I know what went wrong, but I need to talk to a colleague about it first. I could just be reading it wrong.

Right, so, we had the descriptors on that mixed up, but hopefully we'll be able to get an admin to fix it at their next convenience.

i see...

thanks. Let's hope it works.

[Jinwoy]

Yet I'm not sure how that came about. I don't think I've ever legalised the death penalty or child labor in any Issues.

Interesting. I've checked and it does appear that your nation does not have child labour set as legal.

You do, however, have capital punishment legalised.

Is there a way we can see what's legalised and what isn't, like you?

[Frisbeeteria]

Is there a way we can see what's legalised and what isn't, like you?

No, and that's on purpose. Revealing specifics about changes would lead to technical stat-wanking in the only significant game-managed area, issues. We prefer for the Law of Unintended Consequences to have a certain air of mystery.

[Australian rePublic]

So we can split industry into black market but not large companies and small companies?

[Enfaru]

So we can split industry into black market but not large companies and small companies?

The fact we even got ''Black Market'' was really surprising.

We already have "Large Industries" and "Small Industries". For the most part that's good enough. Doesn't need to be defined by the game any further it would make no point. Political simulation not an economic simulation (no matter how much you want it to be).

[Mousebumples]

Personally, looking at the new economy tab, I wouldn't mind an economy tracker in the same way as the trend tab. Alternatively, maybe a history of highest and lowest values for a given nation on each value might be worthwhile from a historical perspective. Granted, my nation wouldn't have an 11+ year history of those numbers, but even starting from now (or from whenever the refactoring went live) would be awesome, moving forward.

[Icamera]

Just noticed this now:

The TAR Elder Statesman of Icamera is a colossal, environmentally stunning nation, ruled by President Mark Abacoba with a fair hand, and notable for its frequent executions, daily referendums, and punitive income tax rates. The compassionate, hard-working, democratic, cheerful population of 8.234 billion Icamerans hold their civil and political rights very dear, although the wealthy and those in business tend to be viewed with suspicion.

The enormous, liberal, outspoken government juggles the competing demands of Education, Environment, and Defense. It meets to discuss matters of state in the capital city of Haplidahipe. Citizens pay a flat income tax of 84.9%.

I know NS doesn't shy away from absurdity, but this is a pretty big contradiction.

While we're at it, this bit here seems to indicate that my economy's thriving...

The frighteningly efficient Icameran economy, worth 858 trillion ladrolas a year, is highly specialized and mostly made up of the Book Publishing industry, with significant contributions from Tourism. Average income is an impressive 104,227 ladrolas, with the richest citizens earning 5.5 times as much as the poorest.

...yet the refactor preview seemed to be saying that I've got very little industry. Any explanation for that?

[[violet]]

I know NS doesn't shy away from absurdity, but this is a pretty big contradiction.

I don't see a contradiction here... you have very high tax rates ("punitive") and everyone pays them ("flat"). What's the issue exactly?

While we're at it, this bit here seems to indicate that my economy's thriving...

The frighteningly efficient Icameran economy, worth 858 trillion ladrolas a year, is highly specialized and mostly made up of the Book Publishing industry, with significant contributions from Tourism. Average income is an impressive 104,227 ladrolas, with the richest citizens earning 5.5 times as much as the poorest.

...yet the refactor preview seemed to be saying that I've got very little industry. Any explanation for that?

I wouldn't say you have very little industry. I guess it depends on what you're comparing it to. Why do you think it's small?

[Australian rePublic]

My nation says that the POOREST people have over $122,000 EACH. That can't be right

[Luna Amore]

My nation says that the POOREST people have over $122,000 EACH. That can't be right

You have the highest level of economy and higher than average income equality. So you have a lot of money spread relatively evenly throughout the populace.

[Australian rePublic]

My nation says that the POOREST people have over $122,000 EACH. That can't be right

You have the highest level of economy and higher than average income equality. So you have a lot of money spread relatively evenly throughout the populace.

Yea, but for the poorest to have that much money, the inflation rate would have to be so high that it would indicate poverty

[Enfaru]

You have the highest level of economy and higher than average income equality. So you have a lot of money spread relatively evenly throughout the populace.

Yea, but for the poorest to have that much money, the inflation rate would have to be so high that it would indicate poverty

Lets take Denmark, which is one of the most equal societies in the world. It's inflation was in 2014 about 0.6%... in the USA it was 1.3 ish.

http://www.inflation.eu/inflation-rates ... -2014.aspx
http://www.inflation.eu/inflation-rates ... -2014.aspx

Equal societies have less inflation. No idea why.

I'm taking the World Bank Gini index for equality rating. 0 = Perfect equality. Denmark is 25, USA is about 40.

[Icamera]

I don't see a contradiction here... you have very high tax rates ("punitive") and everyone pays them ("flat"). What's the issue exactly?

Well, the main issue here is that I seem to have gotten the idea that a "punitive" income tax is the same as a *graduated* income tax. Sorry!

I wouldn't say you have very little industry. I guess it depends on what you're comparing it to. Why do you think it's small?

Come to think of it, I was mostly comparing myself to nations that would likely have very sizable economies... I guess I only felt that way because of the selection bias.

[Tessen]

Yea, but for the poorest to have that much money, the inflation rate would have to be so high that it would indicate poverty

Lets take Denmark, which is one of the most equal societies in the world. It's inflation was in 2014 about 0.6%... in the USA it was 1.3 ish.

http://www.inflation.eu/inflation-rates ... -2014.aspx
http://www.inflation.eu/inflation-rates ... -2014.aspx

Equal societies have less inflation. No idea why.

I'm taking the World Bank Gini index for equality rating. 0 = Perfect equality. Denmark is 25, USA is about 40.

Under the current game format, the economy values and the average income numbers will NEVER be anywhere near reflective of the real world, because they are based upon the billion-population scale of the Nationstates environment. When a large nation in NS can have 20 BILLION people in it, and the average incomes are based upon that high of a national scale, the monetary amounts -- even the incomes for the poor -- will be outrageously high. The real WORLD has roughly 7 billion people in it.

I understand that NS follows the billion-population scale because that's how it has always been, and that's how people compare the age of nations here in the game. But, if you're going to offer monetary amounts, there should be some sort of alternate option that brings the nation populations down to a more real-life-like size.

In my roleplay region(s), we drop the last three zeros in any game population, making a 20 billion population become 20 million. It's more practical that way. Perhaps, if NS is going to offer average incomes, and budgetary amounts, then there can be an option for those to be calculated off of a more realistic population number (resulting in more realistic financial information), while still keeping a listing of what the nation's NS age-based population is?

[Australian rePublic]

Lets take Denmark, which is one of the most equal societies in the world. It's inflation was in 2014 about 0.6%... in the USA it was 1.3 ish.

http://www.inflation.eu/inflation-rates ... -2014.aspx
http://www.inflation.eu/inflation-rates ... -2014.aspx

Equal societies have less inflation. No idea why.

I'm taking the World Bank Gini index for equality rating. 0 = Perfect equality. Denmark is 25, USA is about 40.

Under the current game format, the economy values and the average income numbers will NEVER be anywhere near reflective of the real world, because they are based upon the billion-population scale of the Nationstates environment. When a large nation in NS can have 20 BILLION people in it, and the average incomes are based upon that high of a national scale, the monetary amounts -- even the incomes for the poor -- will be outrageously high. The real WORLD has roughly 7 billion people in it.

I understand that NS follows the billion-population scale because that's how it has always been, and that's how people compare the age of nations here in the game. But, if you're going to offer monetary amounts, there should be some sort of alternate option that brings the nation populations down to a more real-life-like size.

In my roleplay region(s), we drop the last three zeros in any game population, making a 20 billion population become 20 million. It's more practical that way. Perhaps, if NS is going to offer average incomes, and budgetary amounts, then there can be an option for those to be calculated off of a more realistic population number (resulting in more realistic financial information), while still keeping a listing of what the nation's NS age-based population is?

Fair enough

[Planita]

I would like to know why I have such a large black market. No one else in my region seems to have it so how can I get rid of it?

[Jinwoy]

I would like to know why I have such a large black market. No one else in my region seems to have it so how can I get rid of it?

Police.

[[violet]]

I would like to know why I have such a large black market. No one else in my region seems to have it so how can I get rid of it?

Police.

Yep, other methods include: reduce corruption, reduce taxes, reduce economic regulation, reduce crime!

There can be very indirect effects here, too, like increasing education spending, which reduces crime, which reduces black market activity.

But the black market adds to your GDP, so clamping down on it can reduce citizens' average income.

[Jute]

Police.

Yep, other methods include: reduce corruption, reduce taxes, reduce economic regulation, reduce crime!

There can be very indirect effects here, too, like increasing education spending, which reduces crime, which reduces black market activity.

But the black market adds to your GDP, so clamping down on it can reduce citizens' average income.

So that's why I don't have a black market despite seemingly really high taxes, no corruption and crime?

[[violet]]

Yep, other methods include: reduce corruption, reduce taxes, reduce economic regulation, reduce crime!

There can be very indirect effects here, too, like increasing education spending, which reduces crime, which reduces black market activity.

But the black market adds to your GDP, so clamping down on it can reduce citizens' average income.

So that's why I don't have a black market despite seemingly really high taxes, no corruption and crime?

Yes, it's a combination of things. You can't have a black market without tax and regulation, but beyond that it depends on the balance of factors like those mentioned above.

[Athaulphia]

MY NATION, TOTALLY RUINED BY REFACTORING! Did you say that most nations only would be "a little" affected?

budget	before refactoring	after refactoring
Administration	0%	0%
Social Welfare	15%	14%
Healthcare	15%	12%
Education	24%	73%
Religion & Spirituality	0%	0%
Defence	6%	0%
Law & Order	5%	0%
Commerce	6%	0%
Public Transport	10%	0%
The Environment	9%	0%
Social Equality	11%	0%

Refactoring has almost destroyed the result of eight years trying to build a prosperous, free, democratic, cultured, socially fair and advanced nation. I have waited for a month, hoping that I could fix it by answering issues, but I guess I'm going to give up. That demented education budget stays the same, and the other chapters (excepting welfare and healthcare) remain at zero.

I have the same problem in other nations and answering issues have been almost inutile: i.e. I answered issue #14: "Military Demands Increased Spending" to raise defense budget, and it "rose" from 0% to a ridiculous 0.4%. How many times I should get the correct issue to fix this disaster? What can I do? Can I reset my nation? But if I let it "die" and refound it, it will stay the same...!

Is there any possible solution?

[Jinwoy]

Is there a way we can see what's legalised and what isn't, like you?

No, and that's on purpose. Revealing specifics about changes would lead to technical stat-wanking in the only significant game-managed area, issues. We prefer for the Law of Unintended Consequences to have a certain air of mystery.

I can understand your point here, but until the Banners were released, I had no idea that my nation was made up of "Self Governing Regions" (The banner, "Perched")... How do I, the person who owns and operates this particular nation as a Unitary state, not even realise I had split up into autonomous regions? That genuinely seems like something I outta know about right away!

[Jute]

No, and that's on purpose. Revealing specifics about changes would lead to technical stat-wanking in the only significant game-managed area, issues. We prefer for the Law of Unintended Consequences to have a certain air of mystery.

I can understand your point here, but until the Banners were released, I had no idea that my nation was made up of "Self Governing Regions" (The banner, "Perched")... How do I, the person who owns and operates this particular nation as a Unitary state, not even realise I had split up into autonomous regions? That genuinely seems like something I outta know about right away!

I always choose the "give everyone the same political power2 when it comes to choosing the political leader and yet I still don't have that. I wonder what I could do to achieve that?