Refactoring (was: Refactor preview)

[Defero Populus]

I understand the Public Sector size, and Income tax. Although, I don't get how I can have 19% publicly owned industry when my industry is negative and I have 100% public sector. Also, how did my industry go from -3,738, which is already pretty bad to -7,950.4? It seems like a big drop.

[Astrum Nigrum]

how come i have only 15% public industry, when there shouldn't be any private enterprise?

but it's good to see that my industry will finally be positive
even if the income tax hasn't gone down as i had hoped. 98% is a bit ridiculous, especially when all the money spent should go back to the "government"/public anyway...

[The Pacifican Islands]

I got from 21% in defence and now only 17%! Also there's international aid.

[The United Colonies of Earth]

My industry isn't negative 2,000, we have international aid, less defense and administration.
Thanks, Violet!

[Phydios]

So...administration and defense are getting major cuts, my government is doubling (becoming larger than my industry), and my industry is getting quite a sizable increase as well. What's causing that?
The good things about this is that I've finally stamped out the black market (or at least it no longer shows up) and citizens are keeping significantly less of their income.
Overall, I'm a fan of this change, and I can't wait for it to take effect.
Edit: This is referring to my main nation Tonosia. For some reason, I'm posting as this nation, even though I'm logged in as Tonosia.

[La Sola Island]

Apparently this nation will have zero government spending, as it currently does, yet it will have a positive sized (albeit quite small) government? Seems a bit odd to me. It does make for a good pie chart though.

Haven't found any real issues with the results on my nations, even though most are extreme in one way or another, this one was the only one I found a bit odd.

[[violet]]

I understand the Public Sector size, and Income tax. Although, I don't get how I can have 19% publicly owned industry when my industry is negative and I have 100% public sector.

Ha, quite right! Fixed that, thanks.

Also, how did my industry go from -3,738, which is already pretty bad to -7,950.4? It seems like a big drop.

Indeed. It's a combination of two things. Firstly, it's this:

refactoring slightly expands the NS concept of industry, shifting away from the idea that the "named industries" like Fishing, Auto Manufacturing, Insurance Sales, etc, comprise the entire economy. It's not a big change, but it means you get more results out of issues that have a broad industry effect, rather than targeting one or more named industries.

... plus it's that while you are mildly supportive of some industries (IT, fishing), it's not by enough to outweigh your broader opposition to industry.

[Yy4u]

Current > Refactored
Government size 20 > 151
Industry size -99 > 606.4
Publicly owned industry ? > 100%
Public Sector size 0.0% > 100.0%
Income tax 0% > 61%

Is this correct? I am going from 0% to 61% tax? And my private sector is being wiped out?

Bummer

[Luna Amore]

Current > Refactored
Government size 20 > 151
Industry size -99 > 606.4
Publicly owned industry ? > 100%
Public Sector size 0.0% > 100.0%
Income tax 0% > 61%

Is this correct? I am going from 0% to 61% tax? And my private sector is being wiped out?

Bummer
:(

Private enterprise is currently illegal in your nation, so 100% public owned industry and public sector size makes more sens.

[Sasten]

I'm not sure I quite understand how the single industry stat is being calculated. When I add (actually its subtract (!?) ) up all my industry numbers, I get -94, but the refactor page shows I currently have -75. Am I doing something wrong here, and if so, by just how much does the complexity of the mathematics and code in use here surpass my limited understanding? I'm somewhat hesitant to put stock in the refactored numbers until I know for sure what it is they are refactored from.

[Errinundera]

I spent much time and effort creating a left-wing utopia with 0% income tax in Errinundera. This is about to be changed - our income tax will increase to 95%. I take it that it now means that if I manage to reduce our income tax to 0% again after the change there will be no government departments at all, providing no services. Or, Errinundera won't be able to maintain its cherished left-wing utopian ideals.

You know, one of the things I liked about NS was the ability to have an insane nation. This change could blandify things, though I do recognise that the changes make sense. Part of the fun of playing games is that they don't reflect RL.

Anyway, you've set me a new challenge: get that income tax back down again while maintaining a left-wing utopia. I guess I'll have to wait for the issue where tax laws get eliminated.

[Seraven]

So why does International Aid was added into the national budget?

[Phasma]

My nation's changes

Government size 98 to 183
Industry size 1,536 to 2,496
Publicly owned industry ? to 0%
Public Sector size 7.2% to 6.8%
Income tax 24% to 2%

Finally, a decent sized tax drop. Will this have any notable effect on other economy ratings? Also, will my gov't's classification change from anarchy, because there are still a decent amount of laws in place. Apparently having freedom of expression causes your nation to go into an anarchy.

[Vaval]

What of population size in accordance to government size, not only program size?

Seriously, population of 6 billion and a small government makes no sense.

[Laevendell]

So why does International Aid was added into the national budget?

Actually, it's been around for some time now. I don't know when it was added, but I've had some in my budget for a while.

[Genomita]

So my industry would change from 159 to 1,131.2. is that good or really bad?

And how come only 18% of my industry would be publicly owned? Likewise, why would my public sector go from 86.7% to 52.5%? That strikes me as pretty odd.

[Sassain]

This ruins it.

My carefully maintained income tax shoots up from 20 odd to nearly 80 and my industry gets decimated.

Other bad things happen.

Why bother changing it? I've worked hard to get to where I've got.

[Anti-Zombie Mercenary Group]

Any chance we could get some new pie-charts for a breakdown of the size of each industry compared to each other, as with government spending? Also a black market section on the current industry pie chart would reaaaaally help all the people confused by this sudden 100% publicly owned industry and just be nice to be able to see anyway...

[[violet]]

I'm not sure I quite understand how the single industry stat is being calculated. When I add (actually its subtract (!?) ) up all my industry numbers, I get -94

By "all my industry numbers," you mean the things like "Industry: Timber Woodchipping" from the Analysis page? They won't add up to your total industry size for two reasons: 1. Your economy consists of more than just these industries. 2. They use different units.

[[violet]]

I spent much time and effort creating a left-wing utopia with 0% income tax in Errinundera. This is about to be changed - our income tax will increase to 95%. I take it that it now means that if I manage to reduce our income tax to 0% again after the change there will be no government departments at all, providing no services. Or, Errinundera won't be able to maintain its cherished left-wing utopian ideals.

You know, one of the things I liked about NS was the ability to have an insane nation.

Don't worry, there's not much danger of NS becoming a rigorously practical simulator. We will always support multiple perceived realities. But we aim to do that while making some kind of sense.

It is certainly still possible to run large governments with 0% income tax. One way is to run your government like a business, seeking out profit opportunities while cutting taxes. To be a left-wing Utopia with 0% income tax, though, will indeed be challenging, since you've outlawed private enterprise and run quite a lot of public services in an Imploded economy while opposing almost all industrial development. There are lots of great things you can do in a nation like that, but I have trouble seeing how running 0% income tax rates can be one of them. If you have some ideas, though, I'm interested to hear them, because NationStates doesn't want to force you into any single world-view, but rather let you choose between many different ideological frameworks. As long as the framework involves tradeoffs of some kind, we're happy.

[[violet]]

What of population size in accordance to government size, not only program size?

Seriously, population of 6 billion and a small government makes no sense.

Shh, the libertarians will hear you!

Population isn't used in many places in NationStates. It is a special stat that basically marks how old you are and does practically nothing else. For example, nations don't go through stages where things work at low population levels but then need changes as your population grows. And you never get an issue that reduces your population. It's kind of too ingrained to touch now.

[[violet]]

So my industry would change from 159 to 1,131.2. is that good or really bad?

It depends on what you want your nation to look like. Most people would say that more industry is good, though.

And how come only 18% of my industry would be publicly owned?

18% is quite a lot for a market economy nation. Those are companies that are state-owned but would otherwise be private.

Likewise, why would my public sector go from 86.7% to 52.5%? That strikes me as pretty odd.

Your industry size is dramatically revised up (from 159 to 1,131, as you observed), but your government is staying about the same, so your public sector is a smaller part of the whole than before. It would be smaller still if this number didn't include publicly-owned industry.

[[violet]]

My carefully maintained income tax shoots up from 20 odd to nearly 80 and my industry gets decimated.

Your industry is -1,500 before refactoring, so you've been doing that decimating yourself. Your nation is reasonably rare in that even after refactoring, you have managed to obliterate every single industry. Do we have a trophy for that? Because we should. Anyway, it's always going to be challenging in that environment to provide extensive public services while keeping tax rates down. You're actually doing very well to be under 80%, imho.

[[violet]]

Any chance we could get some new pie-charts for a breakdown of the size of each industry compared to each other, as with government spending? Also a black market section on the current industry pie chart would reaaaaally help all the people confused by this sudden 100% publicly owned industry and just be nice to be able to see anyway...

Yes, "Black Market" and "Publicly Owned Industry" are coming to the "Economy" chart, and I think I'll put them on the refactor preview page first, too, so you can check them out before anything goes live. Stay tuned.

An industry chart we're not quite ready for yet. There are a few things still to be done there.

[Errinundera]

Thanks for the reply, [violet].

The more I think about the change the more intrigued I'm becoming. It's over 12 years since I created Errinundera (I had a 2 year break) and I must admit I've become somewhat blasé about what it actually means to me. You've now got me thinking about it again. My priorities are that it be (in order) politically free, environmental, communitarian with economic activity controlled by the communites, highly educated and socially free. In theory I'm not opposed to industry, profit making publicly owned enterprises or moderate taxation. The changes will get me focussing on what is important to me. That's a good thing.